D1derly Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Hi, I'm Deb and I'm new here. Does anyone know what prophet said that God the Father is subject to law (like laws of nature, etc.) I need it for a talk in church next Sun. I thought it was in D&C or Lectures on Faith, but I've searched both and can't find it. I know I've heard or read it somewhere... do you know? Any help is appreciated! Thanks, Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tomk Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 In the Book of Mormon:Alma 42: 13, 22, 25 13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God. • • • 22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God. • • • 25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God. Howard W. Hunter, a prophet of the Church, said (notice President Hunter was quoting Brigham Young!):To fully understand this gift of agency and its inestimable worth, it is imperative that we understand that God’s chief way of acting is by persuasion and patience and long-suffering, not by coercion and stark confrontation. He acts by gentle solicitation and by sweet enticement. He always acts with unfailing respect for the freedom and independence that we possess. He wants to help us and pleads for the chance to assist us, but he will not do so in violation of our agency. He loves us too much to do that, and doing so would run counter to his divine character.Brigham Young once said: “The volition of [man] is free; this is a law of their existence, and the Lord cannot violate his own law; were he to do that, he would cease to be God. … This is a law which has always existed from all eternity, and will continue to exist throughout all the eternities to come. Every intelligent being must have the power of choice.” (In Journal of Discourses, 11:272.)To countermand and ultimately forbid our choices was Satan’s way, not God’s, and the Father of us all simply never will do that. He will, however, stand by us forever to help us see the right path, find the right choice, respond to the true voice, and feel the influence of his undeniable Spirit. His gentle, peaceful, powerful persuasion to do right and find joy will be with us “so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved.” (Moro. 7:36.)taken from:LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Golden Thread of Choice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tomk Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 This talk is also very illuminating on the topic of God having to obey eternal law:Not Left Comfortless: Skousen Talk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giant_Son Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 I would also check out DyC 88:36-38 36 All kingdoms have a law given; 37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. 38 And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Correct...good choice of scripture quote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tomk Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 36 All kingdoms have a law given;37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.38 And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.If I think of atoms -- is this not true? Atoms have certain "laws" which they obey. There are certain bounds and conditions.Since atoms are the foundation (actually, intelligences are the foundation) then everything that builds upon that framework also follows the same laws, even God. We are not a different species than God. We are His children. Children grow to become like their Father (their Parents).So when God reveals something to us -- what is He revealing? Not a set of arbitrary laws and commandments which have no purpose or meaning.... but rather, they are THE WAY to becoming as He is!!!! We need a roadmap, and He has provided it!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Even Atoms have quarks and quarks have lesser intelligence than it. :) Noting again the highlighted reference, what is mentioned is something Brigham Young spoke on [paraphrase it]: "…there are many kingdoms below us ad there are many kingdoms above us..." We need to learn humility in digesting the creational account of its limitation content, about our origins and destiny; to include the reference passages by both Giant_son and Tom, that even GOD is bound by Celestial Laws and not the author thereof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Then what do u do with the resurrection, and walking on water, commanding the storm to quiet, parting of the Red Sea, etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sensibility Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 (edited) I believe God is subject to eternal laws of justice and righteousness.I don't believe He's subject to the laws of nature. I think it's quite clear in the scriptures that nature is subject to God. (See here, for instance)However, I've had massive debates about this, spanning multiple YSA gatherings, so I'll stop there. Edited February 9, 2009 by sensibility Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 The word HONOR [means power given by others to that individual] has great meaning for those intelligences that are here to ACT. Knowing GOD resides under conditions placed upon HIM, as it with all creation, from the lesser to the most complex, HE works with HIS own creation through laws and knowledge of that state of being. Anyone who is holds the priesthood can do the same as you mentioned, including raising the dead. :) Hence, what did Peter do after seeing the Lord walk on the water? Later in Acts as he went about doing the Lord's work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 I don't believe He's subject to the laws of nature. I think it's quite clear in the scriptures that nature is subject to God.GOD or Jesus Christ are not subjected to our physical laws [Telestial Laws]. That state is subjected unto them both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ceeboo Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 God doesn't " obey " anything ( including laws ):) We all, as God's creations are required to ebey God. Peace, Ceeboo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moksha Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 He don't need no steenking nature laws! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Do not think it is possible since HE abides in a state that is controlled by an higher intelligence than HIM. We learn by example of both of them [GOD and the Savior]. When looking into the clear non-litted night crystal sky, tell me how it is possible without someone not managing the countless galaxies and worlds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ceeboo Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Do not think it is possible since HE abides in a state that is controlled by an higher intelligence than HIM. We learn by example of both of them [GOD and the Savior]. When looking into the clear non-litted night crystal sky, tell me how it is possible without someone not managing the countless galaxies and worlds?Simply and very respectfully disagree my friend Hemi.:)Higher than God??:confused: NO sir. God is the VERY TOP, CREATOR OF ALL, ENERYTHING. God created ALL of it ( Including your night sky and galaxies :))Peace,Ceeboo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Even this universe has boundaries that it cannot cross. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moksha Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Whatever we speculate that limits or delimits the Divine, it is important that we all refrain from drinking and driving. We should also be a good neighbors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 He don't need no steenking nature laws!Man...no laugh button. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Speculation is left to others who do not ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah18 Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 The Laws of nature are not fixed, but they vary , and can be bent according to ones intelligence. If I was a man from 1000 A.D. and I saw that man would be flying planes, and giant metal ships across the world, I would think they are breaking the laws of nature through some kind of magic. In reality we are bending or working through the laws of nature because we understand them. God works the same way, but his intelligence is far greater than ours infinitely so that he can create these laws, or make them present. To do that he must understand them perfectly, and must have the power to control, and work through them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanhin Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 The law, by which all things are governed in both heaven and earth, is the light of Christ. And according to the scriptures, the Light proceeds forth from God through Christ and fills the immensity of space.And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings; Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space— The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things. (D&C 88:11-13) The light of Christ is truth.In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not... ...That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (John 1:4-5,9)Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)The thing about truth, is that it is unchanging, and is thus the same yesterday, today, and forever; which also describes the eternal nature of God (Heb. 13:8). Therefore God is truth, and by him comes the eternal law by which all things are governed (John 1:17). So, it would be nonsensical to ascribe such characteristics to God, and at the same time claim that he does not himself abide the law.It is our priviledge to either abide by or reject the law. By accepting the law, and heeding it, we can achieve our greatest potential. If we heed the light of Christ that draws us closer to him, then we will be led by faith and repentance throught the waters of baptism, and we will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. And if by continually relying upon the merits of Christ, we continue to follow truth and light, we will increase in the light until, like God, we will become perfect adherents of the law that makes us free. "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."(John 8:32)So, like this:That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day. (D&C 50:24)And finally:The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth. (D&C 93:36)God is God, because he keeps the law that makes him God. This is why we can rely on him, because he is perfectly righteous, and it is righteousness that is the source of his power. This is why he reveals the laws to us, his children, that we may know the way. The way is through his Only Begotten Son, and his gospel. That is the law. If it is true for us, then it is true for God, or else it is not truth at all.Regards,Vanhin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 God doesn't " obey " anything ( including laws ):)We all, as God's creations are required to ebey God. Peace,Ceeboo I'd say God is bound to His Nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Let me ask a question. What would happen if God broke a law, even if it is one of His own? Now, WOULD God break a law, even if one of His own? Are you saying He *can* break laws but chooses not to? God does not break laws. If He did that would make Him a hypocrite. I'd go as far as to say, even as it says in the Book of Mormon, if God did break a law, even if one of His own, he could not/would not be God anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 I'd say God is unable to go against His nature. If he is truth, he cannot be not truth. (for example) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 [Justice] True! Breaking any laws from HIS throne would prevent HIM in receiving honor from those intelligences that are here to act. I do believe Celestial Laws had been before GOD was seated in HIS glory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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