Did Abraham Lincoln Ever Meet Joseph Smith?

[Hemidakota]

EXCEPT:Did Abraham Lincoln ever meet President Joseph Smith, Jr? If so, neither man recorded it. However, their parallel histories suggest that such an encounter may well have taken place in early day Illinois. In 1838, the year after Abraham Lincoln began practicing law in Springfield, Illinois the first of the Latter Day Saints moved into that state, arriving at Quincy, across the Mississippi River from Missouri where strife and conflict forced their removal. Two months later they purchased a swampy, defunct town site known as Commerce, renamed it Nauvoo, and commenced building a community for those who would follow. Records show that Joseph Smith arrived in Nauvoo in early or mid-May, 1839 to reunite with the Church followers there.

ARTICLE LINK: Meridian Magazine:: Ideas and Society: Going Green without Losing Your Mind: Better Stewardship of Your Own Backyard

[Hemidakota]

At times, I am amazed how our answers are given and means it is accomplished. As some here do know, I am biased against Lincoln for not helping out the church since he was nearby where the prophet stayed until now. It has been a ponderous moment for me since I needed more instructions concerning this man's involvement. It seems through inspiration, my answer is given through the means of others. :)

[Palerider]

Lets not forget that Gov't turned its back on the Saints...and allowed a extermination order to be issued....and due to political ramifications...just like today....all Politicians did nothing to help for fear their own political career would go down the tubes....

[Moksha]

I think President Lincoln's reticence many have stemmed from what the press at that time called the "twin relics of barbarism".

[Noah18]

I don't think he ever met Joseph, but he probably did hear about him and the Mormon's during that time. During his administration though he read several Books about Mormon's, because that was still a minor issue in 1860, and it was his job to know about them.

He had these books in his private library According to Robert Bray's "What Abraham Read":

The Book of Mormon

The Mormons by John W. Gunnison 1852

Mormonism by John Hyde 1857

Mormonism In All Ages by J.B. Turner 1842

[NeuroTypical]

From a blog called The Great Accommodation

Winders book contains loads of information regarding Lincoln’s unusually long association with the Saints (see pages 105-109 for a summary there of), an association brought about largely by the fact that Lincoln hailed from Illinois (1). Lincoln wrote of the Mormons arrival in Illinois during the winter of 1838-1839. Sometime prior to March 1st 1840 the future president meet Joseph Smith, most likely on one of the formers trips to the state capital of Springfield, where Abe was a lawyer and sometimes state legislator (2). Lincoln voted for the ratification of the liberal Nauvoo City charter (3) in December of 1840, though according to historian Larry Schweikart in his paper "The Mormon Connection: Lincoln, the Saints, and the Crises of Equality", Lincoln "Helped cites like Nauvoo as a matter of course."(4) John C. Bennett, the first mayor of Nauvoo and one of the more notorious characters in Mormon history (5), wrote the following in the local paper Times and Seasons around the time of the ratification of the charter:

" ... and here I should not forget to mention that Lincoln... had the magnanimity to vote for our act, and came forward after the final vote to the bar of the House and congratulated me on its passage." (6)

Lincoln lived in the same Springfield boarding house that Apostle Willard Richards briefly lived in during the winter of 1842, it is likely that they dinned and conversed together during that time. Mary Todd Lincoln attended an extradition hearing for Joseph Smith during January 1843, it was held in the Tinsley Buildling, the same building were Lincoln’s law office was then housed.

After the Mormons largely evacuated Illinois in the mid 1840's, Lincoln would have little occasion for interaction with, or presumably discussion about, the Mormons until 1857 and his historic run against Stephan Douglas for a seat in the U. S. Senate. Negative feels towards the Latter-day Saints still prevailed among many in the state, and the candidates attitudes towards them undoubtedly became an issue. Douglas had been friendly towards the Mormons during his service as a judge in the 1840's, Joseph Smith even had him as a dinner guest at his private residence and there uttered what Latter-day Saints regard as a prophecy, here paraphrased from memory: "Mr. Douglas, you will one day aspire for high public office, even that of the President of the United States; but if you ever turn your back against this people, the light of the Lord will be withdrawn from you and you will lose." Which of course Douglas did, losing to Lincoln when he ran as the Northern Democratic candidate in the contentious, four way race of 1860. Many Mormons regard Douglas loss of the presidency as being sealed by his criticismof the Saints during the 1857 Senate race, which ironically he won. Lincoln tired to tie his oponite to the Mormons by arguing that if Douglas supported the concept of popular sovergnty in regards to slavery, he should logically do the same in regards to polygamy.

In 1860 Apostle Wilford Woodruff records in his diary Brigham Young mentioning his desire that Lincoln win the election. While President Lincoln would routinely bypass the governor of Utah Territory and deal directly with President Young in regards to affairs related to the region. This included 1862 instructions for Young to raise a small "calvary" to protect the telegraph lines from the Indians after federal troops were withdrawn from the territory to fight in the Civil War. Lincoln would also head the petitions of the Saints, presumably through Young, to remove hostile territorial Governor Stephan S. Harding from office in 1863, he was replaced by the more "discreet" Governor James Duane Doty. After Lincoln’s assassination a day of morning would be declared in Salt Lake City, with local businesses closed and a memorial service held in the "Old Tabernacle" (7).

Lincoln’s policy however were not abashidly "pro-Mormon" though by any means. He refused to take a strong position on Utah statehood, and signed into law America’s first major piece of anti-polygamy legislation, The Morrill Act of 1862, though he generally declined to actively enforce it (8). Lincoln’s policy toward the Mormons was however largely well received by the group. It was sometimes dubbed Lincoln’s "Three Word Policy": "Let Them Alone". The socially prominent Mormon T. B. H. Stenhouse records in a letter to Brigham Young, Lincoln’ sharing the following, oft quoted anticdot with him during a meeting in 1863:

"Stenhouse, when I was a boy on the farm in Illinois there was a great deal of timber on the farm which we had to clear away. Occasionally we would come to a log which had fallen down. It was too hard to split, too wet to burn, and too heavy to move, so we plowed around it. You go back and tell Brigham Young that if he will let me alone I will let him alone." (9)

In closing Apostle George Q. Cannon offers the following observations on Lincoln, with whom he had an audience (as a representative of the Utah territory) in Washington D.C. in 1862:

"The President has a plain, but shrewd and rather pleasant face. He is very tall, probably 6 feet 4 inches high, and is rather awkwardly built, heightened by this want of flesh. He looks much better than I had expected he would do from my knowledge of the cares and labors of his position, and is quite humorous, scarcely permitting a visit to pass without uttering some joke. He received us very kindly and without formality. Conversed some little upon Utah affairs and other matters." (10)

In short, Mormons pretty much like Lincoln, like most Americans. (11)

Fun Facts:

Lincoln once checked out a copy The Book of Mormon from the Library of Congress.

The President has been cited over 200 times in General Conference Addresses.

During the nations bicentennial in 1976 the LDS First Presidency encouraged Church members

to read Lincoln’s 1863 proclamation: "God Rules in the Affairs of Men".

On what would have been his 100th Birthday in 1909, President Lincoln had the sealing ordinance performed for him by former Apostle Matthias Cowley, he was sealed both to his wife Mary Todd, and in a node to Mormon polygamy, his "former sweetheart" Ann Mayes Rutledge, who had died before the two could get married. (12)

1. President Lincoln was born in Kentucky but spent much of his life in Illinois.

2. Lincoln mentions this in a letter to a political associate, in which he advocates courting the Mormon vote.

3. The Nauvoo City character of 1840 gave the Mormon dominated local government sweeping powers and a great deal of autonomy, to the point that the city during Joseph’s life time has been compared to a veritable city state.

4. Winder pg. 110.

5. Bennett was the Church’s chief lobbyist on the matter of the Nauvoo charter. An outsider who quickly gained the trust of Joseph Smith and rose to prominence in the local community both civically and ecclesasticly. Bennett would later be involved in an apparent assassination attempt on Joseph Smith. He is also credited with introducing the term "spiritual wifery" in Mormon discourse, as a kind of code for his understanding of polygamy, and was accused of, among other things, being a bisexual and abandoning a wife and child back east. Bennett would turn against the Mormons and write and lecture against them, though for a brief time he reassociated himself with the movement, in the form of James Strang’s splinter sect which arouse, and briefly flourished, following the martyrdom of Joseph Smith in 1844.

6. Cited in Winder page 110, from Times and Seasons 2:267, in turn quoted from Nibley’s Brigham Young: The Man and His Work.

7. Predecessor to the famed domed tabernacle of today, which was completed a short time later.

8. I think it safe to say Lincoln had bigger things on his plate.

9. This quote can be found in Arrington and Bitton’s The Mormon Experience, the Ostlings Mormon America, and various other places.

10. Found in Bitton’s biography George Q. Cannon.

11. To find ‘modern’ Americans who don’t much care for Lincoln, simply flip through the pages of Southern Partisan Magazine.

12. This is ironic because the whole reason Cowley was a "former Apostle" was his dogmatic insistence on the centrality of polygamy in Mormon doctrine and practice, at a time when the Church was trying to move beyond much of its "19th Century Weirdness", into something more compatible with the American mainstream.

[Hemidakota]

Number twelve made laugh....12. This is ironic because the whole reason Cowley was a "former Apostle" was his dogmatic insistence on the centrality of polygamy in Mormon doctrine and practice, at a time when the Church was trying to move beyond much of its "19th Century Weirdness", into something more compatible with the American mainstream.

[Moksha]

On what would have been his 100th Birthday in 1909, President Lincoln had the sealing ordinance performed for him by former Apostle Matthias Cowley, he was sealed both to his wife Mary Todd, and in a nod to Mormon polygamy, his "former sweetheart" Ann Mayes Rutledge, who had died before the two could get married. (12)

Wow, learn something new everyday!

[Maxel]

Ah, good ol' Mathias Cowley. Despite losing the apostleship, he stayed a staunch supporter of the Church until he died. His son, Matthew Cowley, also grew up to be an apostle. (I had to throw this out there because, as far as talks go, those given by Matthew Cowley are among my favorite of all time)

Hemidakota, if you don't mind me asking, did you find some sort of truce in your mind with President Lincoln because of the article?

[Hemidakota]

Yes...

Years ago, my understanding of Lucifer had a closure when from the [General Conference] pulpit announced a strange statement concerning this brother. I do believe our desire, our hope, our faith, exceed that of a common Saint [see the story of Brother of Jared] and answered with clarity. My love for Kimball and Benson exceeds all proceeding prophets accept Monson. I used to pray with earnest for Lucifer that he repent and come back to the fold. This went and for a couple of years until conference when I stopped this practice. :)

[Justice]

I didn't read all this thread, since I recently had power restored, I have a lot to do.

I will say that it is of public record that Abraham Lincoln checked out a Book of Mormon, I believe from the librabry of Congress.

[AngelLynn]

I've been watching a lot of History channel today which had quite a bit of stuff on Lincoln lately. I've been wondering about how he felt about the church. Intresting that he had checked out a Book of Mormon. I wish we could have known his impressions from the book.

But I remember watching on the History channel that Lincoln took his dreams very seriously. And I do find it intresting to know that he had been given a dream/vision of his own death.

Seeing how the Book of Mormon talks of visions and dreams. Lehi's vision to flee Jerusalem, the vision of the Iron Rod. I just wonder if the Book of Mormon connected to Lincoln more than we realize. I know a lot of this is speculation, but it does cause one to wonder just ever so breifly.

[Elphaba]

Those familiar with my disdain for faith-promoting rumors be warned: this article raises all of the red flags, such as faulty inferences and assumptions.. Clearly, the authors, David and Nancy Leroy, started with a premise, that Joseph and Abraham Lincoln had met, and then looked for evidence of such.

The evidence, however, is merely coincidences and unfortunately, coincidences are not proof of anything, other than there are coincidences, and none of the facts the Leroys present as evidence can be verified.

Because LDS audiences tend to enjoy anything written about the prophet

that makes him even larger in life than he already is, it is understandable they would desire that this meeting had actually occurred. So, combine this emotional desire with the Leroy’s historical claims that the meeting probably did occur, and you have the beginnings of a faith-promoting rumor.

The problem is these articles, commonly printed in Meridian Magazine, are not benign. Although the article suggests probabilities, they are couched in coincidences that make a meeting between Joseph and Lincoln seem likely.

However, “likely” does not mean “happened.” But, in comparable situations, this distinction is often lost as more members read the article. What is disconcerting is that “likely,“ can trickle down from the magazine to official Church venues where less discerning members will assume these meetings did “happen.”

In my opinion, it is the Church’s younger members who are particularly vulnerable in situations like this, especially in official venues like Seminary and Institute. Although not part of the official lesson, teachers tend to tell faith-promoting information if it is pertinent in any way.

For example, I could see a teacher explaining how God has blessed America's leaders, including Lincoln. Then he might tell them of the evidence that indicates Joseph and Lincoln actually met. Where would he have found this evidence? In this article, of course.

As I mentioned above, Brother and Sister Leroy are guilty of the “faulty rules of inference.” Inference is the expansion of one’s set of beliefs that occurs when new beliefs are derived from a set of pre-existing beliefs by means of rules.

In this case, the Leroy’s wanted to find situations where Joseph and Lincoln may have met; therefore, rather than looking at the evidence to determine what actually happened, they decided what they wanted to have happened, and then looked at the evidence that supported what they wished for. This is completely non-scholarly, and therefore, the historical information they provide is not credible..

For example:

After only a one day trial, the jury on April 23rd, sentenced Fraim to death by hanging. Court records show that Lincoln argued unsuccessfully to set aside the sentence on April 25th, but no detail exists to explain his whereabouts on Wednesday, April 24th, 1839. Lincoln very well could have traveled ten miles North by horseback to visit the new Mormon city abuilding.

Historians rarely use “very well could have,” because it is almost meaningless. You can make almost anything fit into it “very well could have” happened, and in this case, the Leroys did just that.

Additionally, the Leroys suggest Lincoln was intrigued by the Mormons, which is possible, as many people were. But there is no evidence whatsoever that Lincoln chose to ride ten miles to Nauvoo, unannounced and with no idea whether Joseph would be there or not, and then another ten miles home. (Note the Leroys only mentioned the one-way-trip of ten miles, but neglected to add the other ten miles. )

The city charter of Navoo was filed with the Office of the Secretary of State of Illinois on December 18th, 1840. The man receiving the document was none other than Stephen A. Douglas, Lincoln's rival and then Secretary of State. We know that on one occasion, some two years later, all three of those men came even closer to crossing paths.

The Leroy’s faulty inference is that because the Saints filed the charter with Douglas, who was not yet Lincoln’s rival or Secretary of State, there was consequently a meeting between the Joseph and Lincoln. There is absolutely no evidence for this, and frankly, it’s a careless suggestion.

On January 2nd, 1843, Joseph Smith surrendered himself, and appeared in Springfield to face a federal court extradition hearing. The State of Missouri sought to bring him back upon allegations that the Prophet was an accessory to a conspiracy to assassinate a former Governor there.

A bit off topic, I think it odd the Leroys chose not to identify Boggs by name. It bothers me a bit, because I think this is another way the history gets whitewashed; albeit a very subtle way. It’s not the one omission, but any concurrent omissions that are concerning.

Douglas, then a Justice of the Illinois Supreme Court, would have resided in the Capital city on that date. Correspondence and law records confirm that Lincoln too was home. The hearing was conducted with great public fanfare in the Federal courtroom on the second floor in the same building to which Lincoln 's law office would be relocated later in 1843.

This is interesting information, but provides no evidence of a meeting between Lincoln and Joseph.

Contemporary accounts reveal many prominent citizens attended to glimpse the Prophet and to observe the proceedings. In fact, it became somewhat a social outing, when presiding judge Nathaniel Pope's wife insisted on sitting beside him astride the bench. On the other side sat another Springfield belle-Mrs. Abraham Lincoln !

This is true, but it does not equal Joseph and Lincoln met. In fact, those who wrote the contemporary accounts did not mention meeting Joseph either; in other words, even if Lincoln were in the room, he wouldn’t have “met” Joseph.

Additionally, if both Mr. and Mrs. Lincoln were present, “contemporary accounts” would have revealed this. The omission of Mr. Lincoln suggests he was not present.

While there is no record of contact or conversation in the courtroom between the Prophet and the would be President, the great likelihood of some exchange exists, and it is a certainty that Mary Lincoln reported directly to her husband on the events of the day. Especially so, when Smith was discharged by Judge Pope for lack of proof!

Again, there is no evidence Lincoln was even in the courtroom; additionally, Mrs. Lincoln telling her husband about the event does not equate to Joseph meeting Lincoln.

Later that year on May 18th, 1843 Joseph Smith dined with Stephen Douglas. After dinner Smith stated to Douglas “Judge, you will aspire to the presidency of the United States ”. Douglas did run some seventeen years later, against Lincoln.

This is an interesting factoid, but has nothing to do with Joseph meeting Lincoln.

The remainder of the article discusses Lincoln and Church leaders after Joseph’s death, including the possibility he read the Book of Mormon. Again, this is very interesting, but it does not prove they actually met, and, in fact, is an effort to make Lincoln look more interested than he actually was.

Changing course! Using exclamation points s a clear indication the article is going for emotional responses! It is not going for historical accuracy! This response is what hooks the reader in to believing the information contained therein is accurate! Never! Ever! Shoot yourself in the foot first! Pepper your historical paper with exclamation points!!!

Finally:

But we do know of Lincoln 's presence during the earliest days of the Saints in Illinois, at a location little more than an hour's horseback ride from Nauvoo and of his interest in the proceedings of a Springfield courtroom. The record also shows that Lincoln 's research and reading of Church history and doctrine was personal and in depth. Abraham Lincoln did know Joseph Smith, the Prophet, even if they never met.

The only things we know for certain is that1) Lincoln was ten miles away from Nauvoo at a specific point in time, and 2) he was personally interested in the Church's doctrine, etc.,

We do not know if he was or was not interested in the courtroom proceedings, though it is likely he was.

We do not know if his research and readings of the Church history and doctrine was in-depth, or not, because we do not know what he actually read.

I am not saying these things did not happen--perhaps they did. But assumptions and inferences are not evidence, and without better evidence than it "could very well have happened," we simply do not know if Joseph and Lincoln met, or not.

Thus, as I wrote at the top of my post, we have the beginning of a faith-promoting rumor. In fact, the Leroy's insistence that Lincoln knew Joseph, is purely faith-promoting, as we have no evidence whatsoever to substantiate that.

In the end, that is up to believers to answer, which is, I'm sure, what the authors intended. But the article, in toto, is a faith-promoting rumor, and in my opinion, those days should be long past by now.

Elphaba!