Word of Wisdom: a Temporal or Eternal law?

[Janice]

At risk of being called a heretic (again), I think this is an interesting topic for discussion.

Did Christ drink wine? As in real wine? Or was it, as I have heard some Mormons claim, actually grape juice?

We know that Joseph & the other men in the School of the Prophets would, before being given D&C 89, smoke and chew tobacco. If use of tobacco was inherently offensive to God, wouldn't he have made it a forbidden vice earlier?

We had (he died a few years ago) a Patriarch in our stake who was a convert, and when baptized, he had a wine cellar with thousands of dollars worth of wine. He pored it all down the drain. I heard him say on more then one occasion, "When I die, I am confident that God will greet me at the pearly gates with two glass of the very best wine the universe has to offer, one for me and one for Him, and as we toast, he will say, 'Well done, my good and faithful servant.' "

Before you get too worked up, know that my family and I keep the word of wisdom to the absolute letter of the law, and I am not, in anyway, saying that anybody should do other wise.

But... is it a temporal, lesser law that we are being asked to live today? Or is it an eternal law that always has and always will exist?

Curious to hear your thoughts.

Janice

Edited February 11, 2009 by Janice

[Just_A_Guy]

I would say a temporal law, but built on a foundation of eternal principles.

But, see D&C 29:34-35:

34 Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created.

35 Behold, I gave unto him that he should be an agent unto himself; and I gave unto him commandment, but no temporal commandment gave I unto him, for my commandments are spiritual; they are not natural nor temporal, neither carnal nor sensual.

Reconcile that as you will.

Did Christ drink wine? As in real wine? Or was it, as I have heard some Mormons claim, actually grape juice?

It was real wine. The Bible and the Book of Mormon are full of stories of people getting drunk on "wine". And there are numerous contemporary accounts of Joseph Smith drinking bona fide wine.

We had (he died a few years ago) a Patriarch in our stake who was a convert, and when baptized, he had a wine cellar with thousands of dollars worth of wine. He pored it all down the drain. I heard him say on more then one occasion, "When I die, I am confident that God will greet me at the pearly gates with two glass of the very best wine the universe has to offer, one for me and one for Him, and as we toast, he will say, 'Well done, my good and faithful servant.' "

He had apparently read D&C 27:5-14, paying particular attention to verse 14.

Edited February 11, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest tomk]

It is a spiritual law. They all are.

[Janice]

Ah! I see I used the wrong word. I should have said: Word of Wisdom: a Temporary or Eternal law?

I was not aware of this verse:

"5 Behold, this is wisdom in me; wherefore, marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel, to whom I have committed the keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim; " D&C 29:5

Interesting.

So, if it used to be okay to drink wine, and it will be again, why isn't it now? I'm not trying argue with God, or anyone else. I am just honestly curious. Why are we being asked to live what seems to be a "lower" law, as was the Law of Moses to the Children of Israel? The logical answer would seem to be because, just as the Children of Israel, we apparently need a more controlling, more dominant law.... "Don't drink too much wine" would not be good enough, and because we can't be trusted He had to say, "You know what, just don't ever touch the stuff."

Am I off base here?

Janice

[Guest tomk]

I dunno.

I've never drunk wine, not planning on it. I don't think about.

[Janice]

I've never drunk wine, not planning on it. I don't think about.

:) Same. Nor have I ever smoked, or drank coffee or green tea. None are even a temptation. Yet this does not stop me from being curious about the "why's" behind the commandments we are asked to live.

Janice

[Maxel]

I'm quite sure Christ drank real, alcoholic wine. Then again, Christ also was subject to the terms and conditions of mortality around 1-33 B.C. in Jerusalem and Israel's cities; that included drinking wine as it was in some cases the best alternative (especially when the nearby water was rancid, as the Jordan river).

That being said, we should read the Word of Wisdom in the manner in which it presents itself, especially when we look at the commandment to not drink alcohol. The first few verses read:

D&C 89:1-5

1 A Word OF Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—

2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—

3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.

4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation

Of note:

1.) "showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days"

The scripture states that the Word of Wisdom's purpose is the temporal salvation of the saints in the latter days. What other meanings are covered by the term 'temporal salvation' are, in my opinion, many. To date, I have identified several social, economical, spiritual, and health-related reasons for teetotalism.

For example:

Social- Not drinking tends to separate a person from 'the crowd', especially when 'the crowd' is drinking. This helps keep a person away from the irresponsible behavior and serious sins that can accompany intoxication (fornication/adultery, reckless endangerment of life (like drunk driving), etc.). Also, it help set us apart as a 'peculiar people'.

Economical- If you're not paying for alcoholic beverages, you're not wasting money. Alcohol is expensive and addictive. If one becomes addicted, one might give up everything else to pay for more alcohol. It happens all too frequently.

Spiritual- The biggest blessings are those that come from obedience to the Word of Wisdom.

Health- Alcohol has largely negative effects on the body, and its positive effects can be obtained through other foods. Generally, drinking alcohol renders a person's body worse for wear than if they hadn't drunk it.

Please note that most of these are 'common sense' and I know of few studies that support my statements, and I forget where to find those studies. At this time, I don't care to look on the internet for them either.

------------------------

Take all that with a few grains of salt, however, and remember D&C 29:34-35 (thank you for citing that, Just_A_Guy).

2.) "adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints"

The Word of Wisdom is a commandment given to all the Saints based on the needs of the 'weakest' of the group. That is to say, we are all expected to abstain from alcohol because the weakest, faithful Latter-day Saint will not be able to take even a sip of alcohol without abusing it.

3.) "In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days,"

This revelation is given, in part, because of the wickedness that will exist in high places in these end days. The social and moral atmosphere of these last days is dramatically different than in Jesus' time, largely because of technological advances. No matter how wonderful a wine-makers' wares were in Jesus' time, (s)he could not distribute his/her product with the ease and ability that we see in today's culture. Nowadays, everyone from the King of the World to Joe Schmoe the Homeless Guy has easy access to liquor- and lots of it. Not only that, but the alcohol companies push their product on America (and other nations) through constant advertisement that was unknown in Jesus' day.

Because of these and other differences, it has become advisable for those who would be blessed of the Lord to abstain from the activities and substances forbidden in the Word of Wisdom. So, to answer your question, the Word of Wisdom is both a spiritual and temporal law- in part because following it requires us to adhere to the spiritual principles of obedience and faith while at the same time adhering to temporal principles of fiscal responsibility and personal cleanliness.

Edited February 12, 2009 by Maxel
Clarification

[Janice]

Wow. This is good stuff. You used some words I'm going to have to look up. Can you say this again... a little more... plainly? And can you give examples?

What other meanings are covered by 'temporal salvation' are, in my opinion, multitudinous. To date, I have identified sundry social, economical, spiritual, and health-related reasons for teetotalism.

Thanks!!!

[Just_A_Guy]

So, if it used to be okay to drink wine, and it will be again, why isn't it now? I'm not trying argue with God, or anyone else. I am just honestly curious. Why are we being asked to live what seems to be a "lower" law, as was the Law of Moses to the Children of Israel? The logical answer would seem to be because, just as the Children of Israel, we apparently need a more controlling, more dominant law.... "Don't drink too much wine" would not be good enough, and because we can't be trusted He had to say, "You know what, just don't ever touch the stuff."

Maxel has given me a lot to think about. The answer that I was going to give is pretty much the same as what I wrote here earlier today: God just wants us to be different.

[Traveler]

May I add some thought here? First off temporal and temporary in reality do mean the same thing. Temporal refers to time (which is temporary) and eternal refers to that which is not subject to time.

The second thing I would like to bring up is the concept of covenant and being a covenant people. The method of G-d is line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept. This method is used with covenants. The covenants given through the priesthood in this life will prepare us for the covenants we will live in the next. In that sense most covenants are temporal or temporary even though they have eternal ramifications.

Discipline is the first step to freedom or living Celestial covenant which is the only covenant of freedom. We are told that the Word of Wisdom is a very easy covenant that anyone calling themselves a saint is likely to encounter. There is much to consider in this concept. The point that many do not seem to get is that if they cannot discipline themselves with the covenant in the word of wisdom there is much concern concerning them.

My suggestion is that one accepts the word of wisdom as a covenant and discipline themselves with the minimum suggested as commandment. When you master that discipline you will understand the wisdom of the covenant and will likely be lead to understand the next spiritual step in preparing you via discipline for more eternal understanding of things. If you are having problems with this first elementary step – I suggest you consider a change of attitude (also known as repentance).

The Traveler

[Maxel]

Wow. This is good stuff. You used some words I'm going to have to look up. Can you say this again... a little more... plainly? And can you give examples?

Thanks!!!

Sorry; I edited my post and provided some examples. Hope that helps!

[Maxel]

:) Same. Nor have I ever smoked, or drank coffee or green tea. None are even a temptation. Yet this does not stop me from being curious about the "why's" behind the commandments we are asked to live.

As long as one is extremely careful in their manner, I think questioning the reason commandments are given is healthy. NOT if a person is looking for a way around it, but is attempting to understand the mind of God so that (s)he can live in accordance with His will to a greater degree.

I sometimes see Mormons saying 'don't question it; just do it' which I think is blind faith and the exact opposite of one of Mormonism's central themes: that knowing the why is possible, and it is God who will give us that knowledge (through the Holy Ghost) if we ask Him in the proper manner and it is needful for Him to tell us.

[Janice]

As long as one is extremely careful in their manner, I think questioning the reason commandments are given is healthy. NOT if a person is looking for a way around it, but is attempting to understand the mind of God so that (s)he can live in accordance with His will to a greater degree.

I sometimes see Mormons saying 'don't question it; just do it' which I think is blind faith and the exact opposite of one of Mormonism's central themes: that knowing the why is possible, and it is God who will give us that knowledge (through the Holy Ghost) if we ask Him in the proper manner and it is needful for Him to tell us.

Well said. Thank you.

[john doe]

I think Trav hit upon a good point. I think that it is mostly a test of our obedience and also help us understand the importance of self-discipline. I believe that self-mastery will be required to progress in the eternities. Learning it now will benefit us all the more in the hereafter.

[Wingnut]

I don't think it really matters whether it's temporary or not. We've been given it and should follow it. I don't think we need to worry about whether or not it will apply during the Millennium, or any other time in the future.

[Janice]

I sometimes see Mormons saying 'don't question it; just do it' which I think is blind faith and the exact opposite of one of Mormonism's central themes: that knowing the why is possible, and it is God who will give us that knowledge (through the Holy Ghost) if we ask Him in the proper manner and it is needful for Him to tell us.

I don't think it really matters whether it's temporary or not. We've been given it and should follow it. I don't think we need to worry about whether or not it will apply during the Millennium, or any other time in the future.

Yeah, Maxel, I sometime see Mormons saying that too.

Janice

[Wingnut]

You know what, Janice? If it makes you feel better to twist my words in every single post I ever make on a thread that you have started, go right ahead.

[Hemidakota]

At risk of being called a heretic (again), I think this is an interesting topic for discussion.

Did Christ drink wine? As in real wine? Or was it, as I have heard some Mormons claim, actually grape juice?

We know that Joseph & the other men in the School of the Prophets would, before being given D&C 89, smoke and chew tobacco. If use of tobacco was inherently offensive to God, wouldn't he have made it a forbidden vice earlier?

We had (he died a few years ago) a Patriarch in our stake who was a convert, and when baptized, he had a wine cellar with thousands of dollars worth of wine. He pored it all down the drain. I heard him say on more then one occasion, "When I die, I am confident that God will greet me at the pearly gates with two glass of the very best wine the universe has to offer, one for me and one for Him, and as we toast, he will say, 'Well done, my good and faithful servant.' "

Before you get too worked up, know that my family and I keep the word of wisdom to the absolute letter of the law, and I am not, in anyway, saying that anybody should do other wise.

But... is it a temporal, lesser law that we are being asked to live today? Or is it an eternal law that always has and always will exist?

Curious to hear your thoughts.

Janice

If it was Wine, it had only minutes to ferment when we noticed it in the marriage feast. No! The Savior knew exactly what was a eternal value for His life and health. I highly doubt if he associated Himself anything less.

The WoW provides basic guidelines of eating and drinking that lead to sound health, treasured wisdom, enduring vitality, and divine protection. This revelation is given to all Saints, even the weakest of them, as a foundation for their physical health to improve both the quality and also the average length of their lives. Obedience to it not only reflects sound medical knowledge, but also indicates faithfulness to God's commandments.

The promises of the Word of Wisdom are temporal and eternal, physical and spiritual. Temporally, they bless us with healthy bodies and spiritual companionship while still in mortality. Eternally, the promises of obedience to this law bless us in our resurrected, celestial state. The principles of the Word of Wisdom reflect God's concern for the physical health of his children, and they enlighten us about the dynamic relationship between the body and spirit. These blessings enhance our conditions of life on earth and improve our potential of a heavenly life in the future. Living the Word of Wisdom can and should be one small step in our pathway of life leading us towards our celestial potential.

After a quick review this morning, I am need of changing my own health codes, one is not to eat prior to sleeping.

Hopefully that helps you to understand the fundamentals of WoW.

Edited February 12, 2009 by Hemidakota

[MarginOfError]

As long as one is extremely careful in their manner, I think questioning the reason commandments are given is healthy. NOT if a person is looking for a way around it, but is attempting to understand the mind of God so that (s)he can live in accordance with His will to a greater degree.

I sometimes see Mormons saying 'don't question it; just do it' which I think is blind faith and the exact opposite of one of Mormonism's central themes: that knowing the why is possible, and it is God who will give us that knowledge (through the Holy Ghost) if we ask Him in the proper manner and it is needful for Him to tell us.

I don't think it really matters whether it's temporary or not. We've been given it and should follow it. I don't think we need to worry about whether or not it will apply during the Millennium, or any other time in the future.

Yeah, Maxel, I sometime see Mormons saying that too.

Janice

What a marvelous job you’ve done at connecting two posts that weren’t intended to be connected for the sake of taking a cheap shot at someone you have a clear history of not liking.

If you look closely at Wingnut’s statement, however, and consider the comments that she has made across the board, you will notice that what you are implying she is saying is something she very much opposes. I must commend you, however, on your well crafted deception.

You might notice that Wingnut’s post says nothing about whether or not a person should ask why a commandment is given. Just that when a commandment is given, it should be followed. She’s right, too. When a commandment is given, we should follow it whether we’re questioning why it was given or not. That’s the whole point of a commandment. Additionally, it’s nonsense to ask if a commandment is temporal or spiritual. If you care to read LDS scripture, you might come across “Behold, I gave unto him that he should be an agent unto himself; and I gave unto him commandment, but no temporal commandment gave I unto him, for my commandments are spiritual; they are not natural nor temporal, neither carnal nor sensual” (D&C 29:35). Sure, you can make the argument that the Mosaic law was a temporal law—after all, it was eventually superseded—but it would have been a worthless law if it did not improve the spirituality of the people, thereby making it a—oh what would be the proper term—spiritual law

Wingnut’s point is that it doesn’t matter if it’s temporary or not right now. It’s a commandment right now, and if you don’t live it right now, then you aren’t worthy of exaltation right now. The only advantage to knowing if the Word of Wisdom is a ‘temporary’ commandment is this: if it is ever rescinded, you would have a leg up in understanding why a commandment stressed so emphatically in our church could be rescinded. Aren’t you glad you saved yourself those 10 minutes?

And shame on any of you who suggest that there is anything wrong with not questioning why commandments are given. Did Adam ever ask why he was commanded to make sacrifices? Did Abraham ask why he was commanded to sacrifice Isaac?

On the other hand, didn’t John the Baptist require more knowledge about why he should baptize the Savior? Didn’t Nephi have to be given an explanation for why he should kill Laban?

Let’s consider for a moment Maxel’s discussion about the “weak and the weakest of the saints.” Do you really want the weakest of your saints questioning every commandment? [by the way, Maxel, your argument on this point is strengthened if you cross reference “weak and the weakest” with the baptismal covenant given by Alma to “bear one another’s burdens that they may be light.”]

Whether or not a person chooses to question why a commandment is given is a personal matter that has no bearing on the person’s spirituality and not relationship to that person’s worthiness. As pointed out, some of the greatest prophets in history asked questions; others did not. I’d be willing to wager that most prophets asked about some things and didn’t ask about others. Someone with your posting history, Janice, should be very careful about making insinuations like the one you just did. You’ve been the champion of personal choice in the Church, and the champion of eliminating judgmentality. But what you stated here flies in the face of all of those statements.

[hordak]

there is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.

18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;

19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

Jesus taught nothing entering a man can defile him. This means it can only be a temporal law.

[Hemidakota]

Look at it from another viewpoint: "There is nothing from without, that entering into a man, can defile him, which is food; but the things which come out of him; those are they that defile the man, that proceedeth forth out of the heart."

[Janice]

Hopefully that helps you to understand the fundamentals of WoW.

I've never had a problem understanding the fundamentals of WoW. As I was afraid would happen, some people seem to think that because I asked questions about the WoW (mainly, why?) that I have a concern, grudge, or complaint against this commandment. I don't. Or, some seem to think I don't understand it. I do.

We've been commanded to not partake of certain substances. I'm on board with that. I'm just curious why this commandment was never in place before our time, and why we are the first people being asked to live by it. By asking this, I am NOT suggesting that I don't like it, that I don't understand the fundamentals of it, or that I am looking for a reason to not live by it, which is what some of the posts seem to imply. I am only seeking a little more understanding into the why's of this law.

Thank you, Maxel, for offering wonderfully clear insights and pointers to scripture that shed light on exactly what I was looking for.

And shame on any of you who suggest that there is anything wrong with not questioning why commandments are given.

I don't think I've ever done this, but as long as we are wagging fingers and casting shame on each other, shame on anyone who suggest that there is anything wrong with questioning why commandments are given.

Janice

[Maya]

Daniel did refuse food and drink that is not good for anyone. I think there are some laws in the OT about food and drink that was stil used at Jesus time. With apostasy the laws were forgotten or put aside for pleasure. And it was not until JS got the advices again. Thus also the advice came from God and not only from vise man any more. Anyway we need to think of things ourselves so find we the truth... JS did think of these things deeply... I doubt anyuone even tought about them before they just saw that some things were nto good... but no one asked God not before JS.

Edited February 12, 2009 by Maya

[Janice]

I sometimes see Mormons saying 'don't question it; just do it' which I think is blind faith and the exact opposite of one of Mormonism's central themes: that knowing the why is possible, and it is God who will give us that knowledge (through the Holy Ghost) if we ask Him in the proper manner and it is needful for Him to tell us.

I don't think it really matters whether it's temporary or not. We've been given it and should follow it. I don't think we need to worry about whether or not it will apply during the Millennium, or any other time in the future.

Yeah, Maxel, I sometime see Mormons saying that too.

Janice

You know what, Janice? If it makes you feel better to twist my words in every single post I ever make on a thread that you have started, go right ahead.

Ok, so maybe I misunderstood you. If you were not saying, "don't question it; just do it", maybe you can help me understand what you were saying.

Janice.

- Who is confused why other people can "twist" her words and it seem to be okay

[Wingnut]

My point was that it doesn't matter if Jesus drank wine or grape juice...our commandment now is that we not drink it, so are you really going to to to your temple recommend interview and say "Well Bishop, I drink a glass of wine with dinner every night, but I think i should still be allowed to go to the temple because Jesus drank wine."

My point was that it is a commandment now, so we should follow it now, and not be pre-occupied with when we won't have to anymore, or with why we're the only ones that have to.

This is what I meant: http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/18040-word-wisdom-temporal-eternal-law-2.html#post330661