Forgiving God

[MichaelJ]

[MikeUpton]

This talk by Elder Holland has been helpful for me in the past (audio here).

i was playing with a beat, writing a song when i started listening to the talk, and well... i couldn't help it....

http://www.repairsbymike.com/mymp3/ElderHolland80bpm.mp3

[Elphaba]

Point of this little exercise is not to demean here but learn something.

Yes! Sins do affect our outcome when not repented. It allows other festering thoughts and actions to dictate our lives.

The point is, you have no stewardship over her, and therefore, her sins are not YOUR business.

Elphaba

[MikeUpton]

This talk by Elder Holland has been helpful for me in the past (audio here).

This talk is becoming one of my favorites. Thanks for this. I believe you were inspired to post it.

Edited June 12, 2009 by MikeUpton
Additional light and knowledge.

[Hemidakota]

A friend of mine is going through a very difficult time. She has had to face many trials, and she is finding it to be very difficult. She is trying to find strength to go on. She has been struggling so hard to be a good latter day saint, to keep the commandments.

As we know, being a Latter-day Saint does not exempt us from the trials of life, and there is a powerful temptation to curse God when we go through these sore trials. I refuse to take the paths of many who speak with prideful derision, I think the answer lies in gently helping her to find forgiveness in her heart and see the eternal perspective.

Knowledge is light; understanding is what she needs at this time. She needs a little help to be able to find the divine attitude of forgiveness. I am a firm believer in Joseph Smith's quote “I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves."

It is a given, that i have asked her to consult with her spiritual leaders about this matter, however it would also be nice if there were also additional teachings, books, talks from general conference, etc., speeches, and any additional input others of you have of lessons you've learned in your own life, about not turning against God in anger in your own lives, but using trial as a catalyst for good. I'm interested in this not only for her, but for me, and for anyone else who may benefit from reading this thread.

For myself I've found a scripture in the Doctrine and Covenants very useful. Its taught me that an understanding is needed of the eternal nature of our existence, and the knowledge that regardless of what occurs to us in this life, it is to our benefit. Doctrine and Covenants 122

Thank you.

Did not the great ones who stand before the FATHER [chosen before the foundation of the world] are given these trials by fire for their own experience and good? Look at our beloved Savior and then look at the life of Joseph Smith....both of which suffered by the hands of Saints and those who claimed to be followers of the GOD.

[MikeUpton]

Did not the great ones who stand before the FATHER [chosen before the foundation of the world] are given these trials by fire for their own experience and good? Look at our beloved Savior and then look at the life of Joseph Smith....both of which suffered by the hands of Saints and those who claimed to be followers of the GOD.

Thanks Hemi, that is exactly one of the things that helped in my own life. I've been through very difficult times, but I've learned to be thankful for trial. I had a long prayer with Heavenly Father about it, and I thanked him for the adversity in my life, because I know that in the eternal perspective of things, forever is a very very long time, and a bit of trial in this life in order to help me find a better reward in the next through humility and character development is so essential for me. I can see my pride now, I can see that I don't always want to say "thy will be done, Lord," and in this light I will be forever grateful to God for allowing me to experience hardship.

Edited June 12, 2009 by MikeUpton

[Hemidakota]

When we finally approach the Godhead for a first hand experience, we enter it after completing our 'Trials of Fire'. The problem then comes when we are finally given our pre-mortal knowledge and for some, post-mortal assignment. The hard part is not to part with pride unto those in the mortal life.

Concur that our will is HIS will. We learn to live with our enemies with a greater love than before; even those who would cross us in the church. Following GOD's will is the final the act in becoming a member of the Church of the First-Born.

[Tarnished]

There have been many times in my life where I could have cursed God and blamed him for my troubles. Things that range from watching my husband go through a life threatening illness, which resulted in us not being able to have children as well as other challenges we have gone through have brought me to a place where many people would start to blame God. I have actually had friends who when faced with the infertility issue have come to the point where they do blame God.

I think it comes down to this, we are taught that God can do anything, and that God will watch out for us, and I think it causes some to come to the conclusion that a loving God would allow things to go wonderfully for them, and would shield them from any misfortune. However, this is not the case. The purpose of this life is not for us to skip merrily through it while everything goes beautifully. This life is for our learning, and we are here to be tested. Because of this we have trials, we go through hardship, life is not easy. But it never was meant to be. What I have always kept in mind when dealing with “why me” thoughts is that this is a test to see how I will react to a situation. Heavenly Father loves us and he does watch out for us, but when bad things happen instead of looking up to the sky and yelling “Why me God? Why are you doing this to me?” we should instead move forward, look at what ended up being ok about the situation, and step forward with an outlook of “What can I do to make this better? Or what can I learn from this experience?” We should also turn to God and ask for his help in making our way through a trial instead of asking him to end our trial. Bad things happen, but if they didn’t there would not be opposition. If times didn’t get really tough we wouldn’t appreciate the really good times as much.

I hope this helps, these are the thoughts that I use to keep myself from the blaming God situations. And because of my efforts I see God as a friend and a savior during the trials in my life instead of as an enemy or oppressor.

[Snow]

As we know, being a Latter-day Saint does not exempt us from the trials of life, and there is a powerful temptation to curse God when we go through these sore trials.

Yeah - I guess... if you come from the "I'm a victim" camp. Those that take responsibility for their own lives don't think that way.

[MikeUpton]

Yeah - I guess... if you come from the "I'm a victim" camp. Those that take responsibility for their own lives don't think that way.

yea, I meant temptation vs. the actual sin.

Edit: this is a helpful point however, taking responsibility for their one's own life would lead to less of a problem in this area of blaming God or perhaps temptation to. However often things happen in a person's life that have nothing to do with the choices they've made.

So, while not everything in a person's life can always be said to be a product of that person's choice, however, how one deals with such issues can be said to be directly affected by their choices and attitudes.

Edited June 13, 2009 by MikeUpton

[Snow]

.

So, while not everything in a person's life can always be said to be a product of that person's choice, however, how one deals with such issues can be said to be directly affected by their choices and attitudes.

That's a good point too, If one views God as ultimately in charge and controlling of life's details, including but not limited to creating the actors and context in which life's drama is played out, the God has to be responsible for much misery.

Personally I think it is obvious that God, if God is just and beneficent, stays out of things in large measure.

[MikeUpton]

That's a good point too, If one views God as ultimately in charge and controlling of life's details, including but not limited to creating the actors and context in which life's drama is played out, the God has to be responsible for much misery.

Personally I think it is obvious that God, if God is just and beneficent, stays out of things in large measure.

I believe you are correct.

[Tarnished]

That's a good point too, If one views God as ultimately in charge and controlling of life's details, including but not limited to creating the actors and context in which life's drama is played out, the God has to be responsible for much misery.

Personally I think it is obvious that God, if God is just and beneficent, stays out of things in large measure.

And I think that is part of the problem with people blaming God, they think that he is (to use your analogy) this grand director of life and that he causes things to happen on purpose.

I think, like you said above, that God stays out of things to a good measure.

If we are viewing the trials in life as something God has put in our way then it makes sense that we might ask why. But if we view trials as something that just happens and God as someone that can help us through it we don't even come to the point where we would be blaming God for anything.

Great point here Snow!

[MikeUpton]

If we are viewing the trials in life as something God has put in our way then it makes sense that we might ask why. But if we view trials as something that just happens and God as someone that can help us through it we don't even come to the point where we would be blaming God for anything.

Great point here Snow!

I like to think of trials as something God has allowed to be in our way. I think this is similar to what you're saying about "trials just happen." I find it points to his mercy and kindness still because of the nature of eternity vs what trials do for us (cause us to be humble where we might not otherwise be, perhaps inspire others to righteousness even through hardship, or cause us to depend more on Heavenly Father.) If all things in my own life were something I could have easily dealt with, I know its in my nature that I would have never bothered to seek the Lord or his will in the first place. I'm just being honest.

The gospel fits together perfectly like this, as my understanding of the plan of salvation increases, it leads to a better understanding of all other things I seek to understand. All truth seems to fit together in a perfect and beautiful and profound manner. It is another witness to me that the Church is true.

Once you've received that witness of the truth by the spirit, sometimes you do have to trust. You find something that seems odd to your natural understanding, but the Lord has said is yet true. And you're patient with it, seeking light about the matter from the Lord. Finally, when he opens to you, you can again see this new thing you've learned is also correct, it fits in, and it is also beautiful.

[Faded]

I recently had a discussion with a coworker on this very subject. People of his acquaintance would blame God for their problems, curse God for making their life difficult and just plain resent God for being mean to them.

The best response to this and the best passage of scripture that puts it into perspective for me is 2 Nephi 2. That chapter puts forward the topic of opposition better than any other passage. It lays out the purpose of the Fall. We are not here on this Earth to have an easy ride. Because of the Fall, God has "taken several steps back" from this world and he lets things happen rather than constantly intervening. We make our choices. Others make theirs. Some of the greatest pain and suffering we experience is because of the choices of others. Sometimes, natural disasters also bring about pain and suffering. God does not generally cause these things to happen. He allows them to happen for two reasons:

1. This is currently a lost and fallen world and as such, God does not directly intervene as a general rule.

2. God will not take away our freedom to choose. Not from any of us. That means he won't stop a murderer from murdering. He won't stop genocide. He won't stop a lot of terrible things that humankind inflicts upon itself. In large measure, he stands back and lets his his children sort these things our for themselves. In doing so, he is letting us learn and understand.

Some highlights from 2 Nephi Chapter 2.

2 Nephi 2

1 And now, Jacob, I speak unto you: Thou art my first-born in the days of my tribulation in the wilderness. And behold, in thy childhood thou hast suffered afflictions and much sorrow, because of the rudeness of thy brethren.

2 Nevertheless, Jacob, my first-born in the wilderness, thou knowest the greatness of God; and he shall consecrate thine afflictions for thy gain.

Because of the choices of Laman and Lemuel, Jacob and the rest of the younger brothers had been put through a lot of unpleasantness that they did not rightfully deserve. God will bless them for it and he is going to explain why these things happen.

5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.

6 Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.

We live in a state that is removed from the presence God. We all fall short of perfection and every one of us has to rely on Jesus Christ.

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

You cannot truly know good from evil unless there is evil and you experience it. You cannot know light from dark unless there is darkness and you experience it. You cannot know true happiness until you have know sadness. You cannot appreciate health if you have not known sickness. You cannot truly appreciate life if there is not death. Above all else, you cannot appreciate the perfect world, with a perfect immortal body and perfect people in the next life if you hadn't experienced an imperfect world with imperfect people and imperfect, mortal bodies.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fullness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

God's plan for each and every one of us? To have joy. To receive good things. To be given everything God intends to bless his children with. We have a very simple choice: We choose Christ, receive redemption through Him, and receive all the wonderful blessing God has in store for us in the next life.

Satan's plan for each of us? To be absolutely miserable. To miss out on as much happiness and as many blessings as Satan can manage to keep us from. To create as much misery and chaos on this Earth as possible. To get us to turn our backs on God, blame God for our problems, forget about God, distract us from looking to God ... anything at all to turn us away from our Heavenly Father. Why does he do this? Because he rebelled against God and is miserable beyond our ability to comprehend as a result. Misery loves company, and the devil hates every single one of us. Only through God will we become truly happy, and the thought that any of mankind, beings he hates so very much, should be incomprehensibly happy is something he will do anything he can to prevent.

In the end neither God nor Satan can choose our fate. That is entirely up to us. We choose our own fate and nobody else. And choosing to hate God or blame God for all your problems is making the choice to be miserable.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Faded

[HEthePrimate]

Hi MikeUpton,

First of all, I think you have the right attitude--non-judgmental and simply wanting to help. A few years ago I found a small book at a thrift store called May I Hate God? by Pierre Wolff. The title is shocking, but the author believes that it's ok to get angry with God. For one thing, when you get angry with God, you are assuming He does exist. Another thing is that God is big enough/mature enough to deal with it. If I get angry and rant and rave at God, He is not going to strike me down with a thunderbolt any more than one of us would shoot one of our children for throwing a temper tantrum. Obviously, we won't want to stay angry, as that would eat away at us. Learning to forgive and so forth can lead to greater peace for ourselves and a deeper relationship with God.

HEP

[Seanette]

I've put in "prayers" that basically amounted to chewing God out for whatever was troubling me at the time. Didn't get hit by lightning. :)

I did, of course, come back and be much nicer once I calmed down enough to be rational, much as I would with a family member who was physically present I'd had some problem with.

[Hemidakota]

Just don't do what Jeremiah did, telling GOD that he would never pray to HIM again over a silly matter of GOD removing a few people.

[Seanette]

I've never been THAT mad at Him. Mostly along the lines of "Give me a break already! Why do You keep dumping on ME instead of spreading out the problems to some of the super-golden perfect types who just sail smoothly through life? Can't You at least let me have one crisis at a time instead of piling several on at once? Was I THAT big a screwup in the pre-mortal life? I'm really having a hard time believing You love me!"

[skalenfehl]

LDS.org - New Era Article - The Currant Bush

I learned a long time ago to just trust in the Lord. Easier said than done? Easily said because I'm still going through tough times. We were meant to. And D&C resonates so strongly with me. How can I compare myself to what Joseph Smith went through? How can even begin to think what Christ endured?

We just need to trust, but most importantly to bear each others burdens, mourn with those who mourn and comfort each other in time of need. If I let go of the Lord's hand, especially now, I have no doubt that I'd surely be lost. The adversary sits patiently waiting to pounce on us. If we fall down 100 times, darn it, let's get up 100 times. Even carry each other 100 times.

[Hemidakota]

I've never been THAT mad at Him. Mostly along the lines of "Give me a break already! Why do You keep dumping on ME instead of spreading out the problems to some of the super-golden perfect types who just sail smoothly through life? Can't You at least let me have one crisis at a time instead of piling several on at once? Was I THAT big a screwup in the pre-mortal life? I'm really having a hard time believing You love me!"

:lol::lol: Reminds me of a girl after a visitation of a Nephite, starting ranting or complaining about something in the vision only to see his face turned sour.