Clean your own shelf first

[HiJolly]

I have read this quote, which is attributed to Brigham Young ---- yet I have never found the reference. So---- is it from Brother B?

He who is offended by one who does not intend to offend,

is a fool.

He who is offended by one who intends to offend,

is a greater fool.

HiJolly

[Connie]

Connie, you're my hero! Moroni 7 is AWESOME!

I think you mean Moroni is your hero. He is most definitely one of mine.

I have read this quote, which is attributed to Brigham Young ---- yet I have never found the reference. So---- is it from Brother B?

He who is offended by one who does not intend to offend,

is a fool.

He who is offended by one who intends to offend,

is a greater fool.

HiJolly

I'll keep looking, but i did find this.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Forgiveness: The Ultimate Form of Love

"It is reported that President Brigham Young once said that he who takes offense when no offense was intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense was intended is usually a fool. It was then explained that there are two courses of action to follow when one is bitten by a rattlesnake. One may, in anger, fear, or vengefulness, pursue the creature and kill it. Or he may make full haste to get the venom out of his system. If we pursue the latter course we will likely survive, but if we attempt to follow the former, we may not be around long enough to finish it."

[Hemidakota]

Yes, Hemi. there are some people who are given authority to "judge" and to Lead the church... I believe however, most of Us do not fall into that category. I guess in the end we shall know which was a better way.... bear testimony in a non-contentious way...lead by example... or constantly tell everyone why they are wrong and you are right. ;)I personally respond better to people when they are not going down my throat as to why I am wrong... and those I admire most in the church (prophets) while they have been stern - seldom pointed fingers at others religions, etc and if you look at the whole - including Christ... most of the time (and yes I acknowledge that SOMEtimes...people need to be repremanded)... they did so with a geniune love and guided people in what they should be doing rather than telling them how wrong everyone else is. :)As for me - I will strive to correct and perfect myself... and then lead and guide others by my example. I will share with people what makes ME happy and what I have had witnessed to be true - instead of contenting with their actions, thoughts, and beliefs. I will strive not to be judgemental of other religions and I KNOW I will lead more to Christ that way than any other way!Afterall, in the end... we are all trying to figure out the best way to enbody the "pure love of Christ". :)

As a member of the church, if you see wrong, what do you say? What did the Savior do when He noted falsity being taught? Did He idling stood by and watch – being example as you stated? Or did He correct the principle? When He did correct principle did what if He was rejected? See my point? It is not only the leaders of the church to help our brethren out of obscurity but each member should do the same when moved upon by the Spirit or the love of Christ.

There was a conversion with my Muslim brethren who I deeply admire and love about who the infedials are and who Allah servants are. They pointed out through the blessing given to Abraham’s concubine Hagar, they are received that blessing to hold the truth. I had to point out to them, if you listened to your own admission of what is an infidel; it was Joseph that was given the ‘first-born’ blessing and not Hagar’s son. Now, if that is the case, then according to you, you are the infidel. The point here was to correct a false notion that they are the only one who are the servants of GOD [Allah]. It was done out of love and not to point fingers. It was done to correct historical falsify. What has been said here, being an example is not what the Lord would want us in helping our brethren.

Leading others example is a noble start but withholding back correction is no different from those who hid there talents. Not all of us can be great orator or knowledge of the scriptures. It really doesn’t matter on our limited physical abilities but whether we are truly attuned to the Spirit when moved upon in holding back what is required of us at that moment. As you have a lot to offer to the world who resides in darkness.

Now how do we embody the chastity? By learning the true meaning of mercy. By learning to be righteous judge in of the world. From this, we gain a greater appreciation and experience to be like Him.

[HiJolly]

I'll keep looking, but i did find this.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Forgiveness: The Ultimate Form of Love

"It is reported that President Brigham Young once said that he who takes offense when no offense was intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense was intended is usually a fool. It was then explained that there are two courses of action to follow when one is bitten by a rattlesnake. One may, in anger, fear, or vengefulness, pursue the creature and kill it. Or he may make full haste to get the venom out of his system. If we pursue the latter course we will likely survive, but if we attempt to follow the former, we may not be around long enough to finish it."

That's further than I've gotten in the past! Thanks!

HiJolly

[Guest missingsomething]

Hemi,

If it is a minor thing, then yes, I will find a way to correct but normally by saying... You know, I always was taught that ______ is the right choice/way to do it/ or In my personal belief, I dont think ____ is correct...

But most of the time, I refer to the people who I believe have the "right to correct" - the so called "Line of Authority".

ANd correcting and judging are two different things....

[Guest missingsomething]

I have read this quote, which is attributed to Brigham Young ---- yet I have never found the reference. So---- is it from Brother B?

He who is offended by one who does not intend to offend,

is a fool.

He who is offended by one who intends to offend,

is a greater fool.

HiJolly

HiJolly -

I agree - the ultiment degree of greatness is to be able to sort through and not care about what people say. However, I am a bit more realistic about the way I handle things and thus the standard I believe others should be at.. and therefore more cautious with my words and actions.

There is another quote.... I seem to think this comes from the bible "Do unto others as you would have done unto you"

[Janice]

Sum it up, it is good to judge.

Wow. Really?

[Janice]

I guess in the end we shall know which was a better way.... bear testimony in a non-contentious way...lead by example... or constantly tell everyone why they are wrong and you are right.

Well said. Thanks.

[Janice]

Ahhh, gotta love the threads on judgmentalism! They have to be the most judgmental threads i've ever read. ... My question is this: Where is it written that we have a "right to offense?" I always thought we were "required to forgive all men." D&C 64:10

You make a good point. We *are* required to forgive all men. If we are judged, we aught to forgive. Yet I guess I don't see any harm in trying to not judge in the first place.

[Janice]

As a member of the church, if you see wrong, what do you say?

Hemi, I must ask your forgiveness. When I read this post I pictured you as the person in the ward who always takes it upon themselves to tell everyone else how they aught to be living their lives. It's possible I have misunderstood what you are saying, and if so, I hope you will explain further. But even if I've not misunderstood, I still have no right to decide what kind of person you are from a few posts on this forum, and for doing so I am wrong.

To answer your question, "As a member of the church, if you see wrong, what do you say?" I would say: Too many unknown variables.

Who is "wrong"?

What if it's the Bishop? Is it our place to correct him? How about the Stake President? A General Authority? Or maybe it's just a no-name brother or sister who holds no special calling... is it okay to correct them?

What is the situation?

Did an annoying visiting teacher stay for hours while all the time talking about her own personal problems? Is some clueless parent not removing a crying child from Sacrament meeting? Is there someone who gets up every single fast meeting and gives a 20 minute journal entry? Did a teacher in Sunday School teach slightly false doctrine? Did a teacher in Sunday School teach seriously false doctrine? Is a Scout Leader taking single boys on outings with no other leader? Is someone committing adultery?

"Wrong" comes in many, many different shades, and I am not not comfortable making a blanket statements that we all have a duty to correct "wrong" when we see it.

Janice

Edited February 19, 2009 by Janice

[Connie]

I think we get so caught up on the "judge not lest ye be judged" that we forget that "it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil" (Moroni 7:15).

Here is a thread on this topic from a while back that has some good insights and information.

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/14315-possible-not-judge-thy-neighbor-thyself.html

Like the last post in the above thread, i wonder if we are confusing the words 'judge' and 'condemn.' They are two very different things.

And please everyone read this article that Mike posted. It is SO good.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - “Judge Not†and Judging

[hordak]

I think we get so caught up on the "judge not lest ye be judged" that we forget that "it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil" (Moroni 7:15).

Jesus trumps Moroni in my book. I have never heard anyone worried about getting "caught up" on the words of the lord. That being said i believe...

Like the last post in the above thread, i wonder if we are confusing the words 'judge' and 'condemn.' They are two very different things.

Is a real possibility.

[Dove]

I do think it is really risky to assume that I know better than someone else, am doing better, think better, am more spiritual, etc, to outright correct them in a perceived wrong.

I do believe there is a hierarchy of authority in the church for the express purpose of judging for good reason....

Notice, these hierarchies usually do not seek out the sinner themselves, but patiently wait for the sinner to come to them of their own free will and volition~ when they are ready and willing to admit their own faults.

I don't think it is mine to tell everyone else wrong they are, even if it is obvious they are! It's none of my business....

Gotta go, more later....

[Connie]

Jesus trumps Moroni in my book. I have never heard anyone worried about getting "caught up" on the words of the lord. That being said i believe...

These statements are both the words of Christ when you consider the fact that "whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same." D&C 1:38

Edited February 19, 2009 by Connie
add scripture

[Connie]

Moroni 7:16-17

For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil (so, wait a minute, every man may know what is right and what is wrong, absurd!); wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him. Whoa! What a blanket statement! You mean things are black and white, they can only lead someone to Christ or away from Him! Absolutely crazy!

I would hope that someone would be willing to point out that i have lipstick on my teeth, just as i would do for them. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you!

[Janice]

And please everyone read this article that Mike posted. It is SO good.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - “Judge Not†and Judging

Indeed! A quote from the article:

We must, of course, make judgments every day in the exercise of our moral agency, but we must be careful that our judgments of people are intermediate and not final. Thus, our Savior’s teachings contain many commandments we cannot keep without making intermediate judgments of people: “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine” (Matt. 7:6); “Beware of false prophets. … Ye shall know them by their fruits” (Matt. 7:15–16); and “Go ye out from among the wicked” (D&C 38:42).

I confess, I had never thought of judgment in this way, but it does make one think. Here's what I'm thinking...

• Do not cast pearls before swine
• Beware of false prophets
• Go ye our from the wicked

I can obey all of these instructions without making an attempt to tell the swine that they are swine, the false prophet that he is false, or the wicked that they are wicked. In all cases, I can simply walk away without saying a word.

It is not always our place to correct those who are in the wrong.

Elder Oaks:

To be righteous, an intermediate judgment must be within our stewardship. We should not presume to exercise and act upon judgments that are outside our personal responsibilities. Some time ago I attended an adult Sunday School class in a small town in Utah. The subject was the sacrament, and the class was being taught by the bishop. During class discussion a member asked, “What if you see an unworthy person partaking of the sacrament? What do you do?” The bishop answered, “You do nothing. I may need to do something.” That wise answer illustrates my point about stewardship in judging.

All too often when we want to judge AND correct someone, we do so without full knowledge of the other person's situation.

Elder Oaks:

Two experiences illustrate the importance of caution in judging. A Relief Society worker visiting a sister in her ward asked whether the woman’s married children ever visited her. Because of a short-term memory loss, this elderly sister innocently answered no. So informed, her visitor and others spoke criticisms of her children for neglecting their mother. In fact, one of her children visited her at least daily, and all of them helped her in many ways. They were innocent of neglect and should not have been judged on the basis of an inadequate knowledge of the facts.

Another such circumstance was described in an Ensign article by BYU professor Arthur R. Bassett. He stated that while teaching an institute class, “I was troubled when one person whispered to another all through the opening prayer. The guilty parties were not hard to spot because they continued whispering all through the class. I kept glaring at them, hoping that they would take the hint, but they didn’t seem to notice. Several times during the hour, I was tempted to ask them to take their conversation outside if they felt it was so urgent—but fortunately something kept me from giving vent to my feelings.

“After the class, one of them came to me and apologized that she hadn’t explained to me before class that her friend was deaf. The friend could read lips, but since I was discussing—as I often do—with my back to the class, writing at the chalkboard and talking over my shoulder, my student had been ‘translating’ for her friend, telling her what I was saying. To this day I am thankful that both of us were spared the embarrassment that might have occurred had I given vent to a judgment made without knowing the facts” (“Floods, Winds, and the Gates of Hell,” Ensign, June 1991, 8).

Elder Oaks also reminds us of the teachings of King Benjamin:

“Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

“But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God. …

“And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance” (Mosiah 4:17–18, 22).

So, all in all, I get nervous when we tell each other that we have a duty to judge wrong and to correct it. I, personally, am not ready to assume that I know all the facts, that I know better then the person who seems to be doing wrong, and that I am in the proper position to both judge and offer correction.

I prefer to err on the side on *not* judging and let those who's job it is to judge and correct do the judging and correcting.

Janice

Edited February 19, 2009 by Janice

[Justice]

I think you mean Moroni is your hero. He is most definitely one of mine.

Well, him too, for sure, but you definately rock!

[Connie]

As evidenced by the quotes you chose to focus on, i can't help but think, Janice, that to you judge and condemn are the same thing.

I see the word 'judge' more in light of a warning. "it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor." (D&C 88:81) Perhaps it is wrong of me to think of judging in this way. But when my leaders "judge and correct" me, i don't feel condemned, i feel liberated. Perhaps this is why i feel this way about judgment.

Final judgment = condemnation. We are not to make final judgments = we are not to condemn.

From the article Judge Not and Judging by Dallin H. Oaks:

"Even the Savior, during His mortal ministry, refrained from making final judgments. We see this in the account of the woman taken in adultery. After the crowd who intended to stone her had departed, Jesus asked her about her accusers. “Hath no man condemned thee?” (John 8:10). When she answered no, Jesus declared, “Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more” (John 8:11). In this context the word condemn apparently refers to the final judgment (see John 3:17).

The Lord obviously did not justify the woman’s sin. He simply told her that He did not condemn her—that is, He would not pass final judgment on her at that time. This interpretation is confirmed by what He then said to the Pharisees: “Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man” (John 8:15). The woman taken in adultery was granted time to repent, time that would have been denied by those who wanted to stone her."

So telling her to "sin no more" (or shall we say "you are wrong, fix it"?) was not a condemnation, it was a warning. (or shall we say judgment?)

Again from same article:

"During His mortal ministry the Savior made and acted upon many intermediate judgments, such as when He told the Samaritan woman of her sinful life (see John 4:17–19), when He rebuked the scribes and Pharisees for their hypocrisy (see Matt. 15:1–9; Matt. 23:1–33), and when He commented on the comparative merit of the offerings of the rich men and of the widow’s mites (see Mark 12:41–44)."

"The Savior also commanded individuals to be judges, both of circumstances and of other people."

Are we not to follow the Savior's example in all things? "ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;" (3 Nephi 27:21) Again, "it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor." (D&C 88:81)

Hopefully this explains a little better where i am coming from.

[Janice]

As evidenced by the quotes you chose to focus on, i can't help but think, Janice, that to you judge and condemn are the same thing.

I just re-read my last post along with the quotes two times, and I honestly can not figure out why you feel this way. I don't at all think they are the same thing.

Can you further explain?

I see the word 'judge' more in light of a warning. "it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor." (D&C 88:81) Perhaps it is wrong of me to think of judging in this way. But when my leaders "judge and correct" me, i don't feel condemned, i feel liberated. Perhaps this is why i feel this way about judgment.

Agree 100%. As I said: "I prefer to err on the side on *not* judging and let those who's job it is to judge and correct do the judging and correcting." I am okay with judgment from those who are called and set apart to judge. It's their calling. But as I am *not* called to be a judge (maybe other then with my own kids) I prefer to err on the side of not doing it.

Final judgment = condemnation. We are not to make final judgments = we are not to condemn.... (clipped all the parts about condemnation).

I ask this with all respect... did I say something to indicate that I don't understand what condemnation is? I am not sure why you felt I needed to be educated on what it means. If I read your post wrong, please let me know.

All I'm saying is that I agree with Oaks. From time to time we are required to make judgment calls, but we must be very careful about telling someone they are in the wrong. And we must never tell someone they are going to hell.

Hopefully this explains a little better where i am coming from.

Janice

Edited February 20, 2009 by Janice

[Dove]

As evidenced by the quotes you chose to focus on, i can't help but think, Janice, that to you judge and condemn are the same thing.

I see the word 'judge' more in light of a warning. "it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor." (D&C 88:81) Perhaps it is wrong of me to think of judging in this way. But when my leaders "judge and correct" me, i don't feel condemned, i feel liberated. Perhaps this is why i feel this way about judgment.

Final judgment = condemnation. We are not to make final judgments = we are not to condemn.

From the article Judge Not and Judging by Dallin H. Oaks:

"Even the Savior, during His mortal ministry, refrained from making final judgments. We see this in the account of the woman taken in adultery. After the crowd who intended to stone her had departed, Jesus asked her about her accusers. “Hath no man condemned thee?” (John 8:10). When she answered no, Jesus declared, “Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more” (John 8:11). In this context the word condemn apparently refers to the final judgment (see John 3:17).

The Lord obviously did not justify the woman’s sin. He simply told her that He did not condemn her—that is, He would not pass final judgment on her at that time. This interpretation is confirmed by what He then said to the Pharisees: “Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man” (John 8:15). The woman taken in adultery was granted time to repent, time that would have been denied by those who wanted to stone her."

So telling her to "sin no more" (or shall we say "you are wrong, fix it"?) was not a condemnation, it was a warning. (or shall we say judgment?)

Again from same article:

"During His mortal ministry the Savior made and acted upon many intermediate judgments, such as when He told the Samaritan woman of her sinful life (see John 4:17–19), when He rebuked the scribes and Pharisees for their hypocrisy (see Matt. 15:1–9; Matt. 23:1–33), and when He commented on the comparative merit of the offerings of the rich men and of the widow’s mites (see Mark 12:41–44)."

"The Savior also commanded individuals to be judges, both of circumstances and of other people."

Are we not to follow the Savior's example in all things? "ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;" (3 Nephi 27:21) Again, "it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor." (D&C 88:81)

Hopefully this explains a little better where i am coming from.

While I read this post, the thoughts that came to my mind were, "But this was the Saviour, who is the highest judge." And also, That we do as Christ does, when we have the authority to do it.....

I can't dispute the scripture, "it becomes every man who has been warned to warn his neighbour;" however, do we warn in specifically criticizing them for what we perceive is wrong, or do we present them the correct way, either by example, or allusions, or some other less attackative way?

Perhaps this comes down to where one's heart is at.......Perhaps we can "judge" without criticizing, as in a non member partaking the sacrament when visiting our church. We can casually mention that the sacrament is meant for those who have already taken their baptismal covenants....Not tell them they were wrong for doing so, but the right way the sacrament is to be taken. Perhaps that person would still be embarrassed and "offended." Still, what was in our hearts would be of utmost importance... Was it done in love, with no accusation, belittlement, or a holier than thou attitude? Was it done lightly? (In good humor and good will) Rather than inferring that person would burn in hell forever if he/she didn't immediately stop?

While I seriously question the healthiness in intervening into another's person actions, that weren't directly hurting that person, or another, I do realize that I need to be aware of what I'm doing, right or wrong, and live true to that. If the other person wants my help in living better (this usually coming from a basis built on mutual trust), he/she will let me know....

Just my thoughts.

Dove

[Janice]

While I read this post, the thoughts that came to my mind were, "But this was the Saviour, who is the highest judge." And also, That we do as Christ does, when we have the authority to do it.....

I can't dispute the scripture, "it becomes every man who has been warned to warn his neighbour;" however, do we warn in specifically criticizing them for what we perceive is wrong, or do we present them the correct way, either by example, or allusions, or some other less attackative way?

Perhaps this comes down to where one's heart is at.......Perhaps we can "judge" without criticizing, as in a non member partaking the sacrament when visiting our church. We can casually mention that the sacrament is meant for those who have already taken their baptismal covenants....Not tell them they were wrong for doing so, but the right way the sacrament is to be taken. Perhaps that person would still be embarrassed and "offended." Still, what was in our hearts would be of utmost importance... Was it done in love, with no accusation, belittlement, or a holier than thou attitude? Was it done lightly? (In good humor and good will) Rather than inferring that person would burn in hell forever if he/she didn't immediately stop?

While I seriously question the healthiness in intervening into another's person actions, that weren't directly hurting that person, or another, I do realize that I need to be aware of what I'm doing, right or wrong, and live true to that. If the other person wants my help in living better (this usually coming from a basis built on mutual trust), he/she will let me know....

Just my thoughts.

Dove

I agree, Dove.

I can't sat it any better then Elder Oaks did in his example:

Some time ago I attended an adult Sunday School class in a small town in Utah. The subject was the sacrament, and the class was being taught by the bishop. During class discussion a member asked, “What if you see an unworthy person partaking of the sacrament? What do you do?” The bishop answered, “You do nothing. I may need to do something.” That wise answer illustrates my point about stewardship in judging.

As in this example, we may see someone doing something that we think is wrong. In making that judgment call *we* might be wrong, we might be right.... we don't actually know. But, as Elder Oaks explained, unless it's our stewardship, we perhaps aught not take it upon ourselves to correct that person. And we we would most certainly be out of line to condemn that person.

Christ advised us to not cast our pearls before the swine. Good advice. Yet we can do this without pointing an accusing finger and declaring out loud "You're a pig!" We can choose to quietly keep our pearls to ourselves, or share them with someone we deem worthy. In doing so we are judging, but we are not over stepping our bounds and telling someone outside our stewardship how they aught to live their lives.

Janice

[applepansy]

It has been my observation that there is a big effort made at LDS.net to not make a "final judgement" but to carefully correct misunderstandings about gospel doctrine. Through careful discussion we learn from each other. We only get in trouble when we use strong words to describe rejection to the attempts made to teach.

Connie, I appreicate your careful and well thought out posts.

Thank you,

applepansy

[Traveler]

I thought I would let this thread play out for a while and then add some thoughts.

Thought #1: Some consider that the scriptures are misinterpreted when we talk about “not judging” others. Instead of reading the scriptures as “judge not” we should read the scriptures as “condemn” not. For some this may seem like a little point but I see the difference as different as night and day or good and evil.

Thought #2: What does it mean to warn our neighbor? What is the difference between warning someone and condemning someone? I think the difference is simple. When we warn someone we inform them of deeds that bring about personal down fall. We may say things like, “Ignoring the word of wisdom will result in being cut off from the spirit”, “Being unfaithful to your spouse will not bring your family or you joy – even if you are just getting even” and “Son, let’s not talk about what everybody else is doing – let’s talk about what is the good and right thing to do”. When we condemn someone we cut them off from mercy. We may say things like, “I told you so”, “What did you expect would happen?”, or “You disserve what happened.”

Thought #3: There is a general attitude among those that are called the “natural man” to be belligerent and angry toward the “L-rd’s anointed” that bring a message of warning. We see this in the Bible with young Joseph and his brothers and in the Book of Mormon with Nephi and his older brothers. There is often the attitude of – “who are you to judge me or us” attitude rather than consider if the warning is an encouragement to repent and serve G-d or to do a “good and righteous” thing.

Thought #4: It is wisdom to seek out honest people that will speak openly on a subject rather than dance around with what has become known as “politically correct” speech from which no one should find offense (especially the guilty). If we reject advice or warnings; I would hope that it is because we are encouraged or tempted to do evil from it but if we reject advice because our feelings are hurt we do ourselves the greatest disservice.

Thought #5: I hope my comments are taken as advice and warnings for the good and not as a personal condemnation of anyone.

The Traveler

Edited February 20, 2009 by Traveler

[Guest missingsomething]

While I read this post, the thoughts that came to my mind were, "But this was the Saviour, who is the highest judge." And also, That we do as Christ does, when we have the authority to do it.....

I disagree with the argument that because Jesus did it..we have the right to do it... just because Jesus did something that doesnt mean WE, as in EVERYONE, has that same right - afterall, if that blanket statement were true - every person (man/woman/child) should have the priesthood. And we know that is not correct.

BUt I do agree with most everything else DOVE said.

Here's another thought.....

Its does not amaze me that there are thousands of different religions in this world. Have really come to twisting the meaning of a words to fit our own justifications? And its funny how people live the "letter of the law" when it is convienant.

I do not dispute, never implied - that we do not have the right to have GOOD JUDGEMENT by the POWER OF THE HOLY GHOST... to know RIGHT FROM WRONG. I do however stand by the fact that it is not CHRIST-LIKE to judge/criticize/(doesnt matter what word I put here - someone will twist it)... And I still stand by... that YOU WILL LEAD MORE TO CHRIST... if you do so by EXAMPLE and by BEARING your TESTIMONY of what YOU know is the TRUTH/RIGHT... and NOT by telling people WHAT they are DOING/SAYING/THINKING/BELIEVING is WRONG.

And again...I will continue to follow the LINE of AUTHORITY set forth by the prophets of the church. WHICH, if they intended for us to handle every thing we didnt like/agree with/etc... then they wouldnt have established a line of authority.

NO ONE is saying that you shouldnt use the spirit to JUDGE right from wrong... but that is TOTALLY different than judgeMENTAL undertones, and always telling everyone else how wrong they are or how spiritually insufficent they are.

Hmmm... didnt people tell Jesus how wrong he was? Go ahead... live your life the way you want... again I say... I will err on the side of just bearing my testimony, helping those by my example, and if someone needs to be corrected and the spirit tells me I need to TESTIFY to them I will do so by sharing my testimony OR by going to the proper person.

There.. :) Is that "judging" well enough for ya'll?

[Guest missingsomething]

Key point made here Connie... you said...

"But when my leaders "judge and correct"... "

EXACTLY... when your LEADERS... how would that feel if it wasnt from your leaders but rather from your neighbor setting on the pew beside you.