Hill Cumorah Expedition Team

[john doe]

I stumbled across this site on ebay today and followed to the link to their website here . These guys seem to think they have discovered or are about to discover some sort of archeological evidence of the BOM. Since they seem to be RLDS/CoC, I was wondering if anyone, especially the CoC members here know anything about this expedition? Where exactly is this Hill Cumorah in Mexico, and was it called that before these guys showed up? Is there any scientific evidence that they have what they claim to have?

I have to say my gut and my questioning disposition says they may be making a lot out of little or nothing, just from the website content, but I may be wrong.

A paragraph from the auction:

Archeology tells us several important things.  This mountain is proven to be the site of two tremendous battles.  The first battle occurred hundreds of years before the other; the latter being somewhere in the late third century A.D.  There are no ancient settlements anywhere close to the mountain.  The only artifacts found are those of war and those used for food preparation.  The different artifacts are distinctive of two different cultures -that of the Olmec (who we believe to be the Jaredites) and that of the Maya (the Nephites and Lamanites).  We know that the land was clear cut at the times of the battles through core samples of the soil.  It is now becoming the accepted idea for archeologists that the Maya were in a world war with the southern cities against the northern.  Scientists can now read city names and the names of those who ruled them.  They have translated one city’s name to be Muluc (similar to the Book of Mormon’s Mulek), another to be Lamani, and the lineage of another is the exact kingship of the Book of Mormon’s Zarahemla.

Where can one be pointed to see this research showing the proof of these claims? It would be interesting if the claims were true, but I am at this point just a little skeptical of the conclusions these guys have drawn. Does anyone here have any insight on this expedition?

One thing I haven't gotten past is how, after 3 years of trying, they haven't figured out how to get up to a cave 40 feet up on the side of a cliff, which supposedly contains the complete library of the Nephites and Jaredites. Unless the terrain is unusually rough, I would think they should have figured out how to build a ladder or gather enough rope to either climb up or rappel down to this cave which is so important to them.

Any comments? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Jenda]

This mountain (I don't remember the name of it (but I can find out in the next day, or so)) has a very rich history surrounding it, dating back to looooong before Neil was led there by God. As was mentioned in one of the testimonies, it is way out in the middle of nowhere and there is a small village at the base of it. There is an oral tradition among members of the village, and that is that each year, on April 6, three men walk through the village and proceed up the mountain. They are never seen returning back down, but yet show up the next year on April 6. There are other things associated with it, but my memories about it are vague. I have a taped testimony of Neil Steede's which I could transcribe and post some of his testimonies, but your point seems directed at the fact that they can't enter a sealed cave 40 feet up the side of a cliff.

One of the problems is that Neil is confined to a wheelchair, and trekking across jungle terrain is difficult, but not impossible, as he does it frequently, but getting up the side of a cliff to do the work that needs to be done there is a bit more of a problem.

Just as an aside, my brother went there with Neil in 1977, and my husband's cousin went with him about 2 years ago. Their testimonies are both very strong.

As far as the church sanctioning this endeavor, it is in no way related to the church. The church cannot even continue to claim that they believe that the BoM is a historical document (the church leaders certainly don't, so they don't encourage the membership to, either), so they have no interest in proving that it is. All the expeditionary work must be done at Neil's expense, which might be another reason why this is not proceeding as fast as some would like.

And just a final note, it was told that the world would eventually prove the BoM, not the church. Maybe the Lord is just revealing this small bit to us to give us hope to hold on to in this time of trials to our faith.

[pushka]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jan 25 2005, 07:15 AM

As far as the church sanctioning this endeavor, it is in no way related to the church. The church cannot even continue to claim that they believe that the BoM is a historical document (the church leaders certainly don't, so they don't encourage the membership to, either), so they have no interest in proving that it is. All the expeditionary work must be done at Neil's expense, which might be another reason why this is not proceeding as fast as some would like.

And just a final note, it was told that the world would eventually prove the BoM, not the church. Maybe the Lord is just revealing this small bit to us to give us hope to hold on to in this time of trials to our faith.

This confuses me...By saying that the church cannot recognise the BoM as a historical document, what can they recognise it as? So much of the LDS faith is based upon what is written in it? Are you saying that it isn't a true documental history of Jesus visiting people in America and that it is just a story?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by pushka+Jan 25 2005, 08:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (pushka @ Jan 25 2005, 08:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Jan 25 2005, 07:15 AM

As far as the church sanctioning this endeavor, it is in no way related to the church.  The church cannot even continue to claim that they believe that the BoM is a historical document (the church leaders certainly don't, so they don't encourage the membership to, either), so they have no interest in proving that it is.  All the expeditionary work must be done at Neil's expense, which might be another reason why this is not proceeding as fast as some would like.

And just a final note, it was told that the world would eventually prove the BoM, not the church.  Maybe the Lord is just revealing this small bit to us to give us hope to hold on to in this time of trials to our faith.

This confuses me...By saying that the church cannot recognise the BoM as a historical document, what can they recognise it as? So much of the LDS faith is based upon what is written in it? Are you saying that it isn't a true documental history of Jesus visiting people in America and that it is just a story?

I was speaking of the Community of Christ. They (the church) refuse to take a stand on the historicity of the book and allow people to accept it as they feel led. Some accept it for all it is claimed to be. Some accept it as an inspired "good story". Some don't accept it and are embarassed by it.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jan 25 2005, 11:06 AM

I was speaking of the Community of Christ. They (the church) refuse to take a stand on the historicity of the book and allow people to accept it as they feel led. Some accept it for all it is claimed to be. Some accept it as an inspired "good story". Some don't accept it and are embarassed by it.

From the CofC's website they say this regarding their view of Scripture:

Scripture

The scriptures provide divine guidance and inspired insight for life when responsibly interpreted and faithfully applied. With other Christians, we affirm the Bible as scripture for the church. In our tradition, the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants are additional scriptural witnesses of God’s love and Christ’s ministry.

It appears to me that there stand is, that they affirm that the Bible and BofM, along with their D&C are all considered scripture. What's wrong with letting their congregation determine how deeper they wish to acknowledge that scripture in a historical sense?

M.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Maureen+Jan 25 2005, 12:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Jan 25 2005, 12:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Jan 25 2005, 11:06 AM

I was speaking of the Community of Christ.  They (the church) refuse to take a stand on the historicity of the book and allow people to accept it as they feel led.  Some accept it for all it is claimed to be.  Some accept it as an inspired "good story".  Some don't accept it and are embarassed by it.

From the CofC's website they say this regarding their view of Scripture:

Scripture

The scriptures provide divine guidance and inspired insight for life when responsibly interpreted and faithfully applied. With other Christians, we affirm the Bible as scripture for the church. In our tradition, the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants are additional scriptural witnesses of God’s love and Christ’s ministry.

It appears to me that there stand is, that they affirm that the Bible and BofM, along with their D&C are all considered scripture. What's wrong with letting their congregation determine how deeper they wish to acknowledge that scripture in a historical sense?

M.

The church can't force people to believe one way or the other. And as far back as Joseph Smith, III, people have been allowed to believe as they wish, but they were not allowed to preach anything from the pulpit except what was in line with the church's general beliefs.

But now the church has taken a non-committal stand on just about everything, which means that not only is it OK to not believe in specific things, it is OK to preach just about anything from the pulpit in the name of the church. The other thing that this has done is to say to the young people, this is not important enough for you to waste your time and efforts on. And so, there are not many people in my church that know what even the basic premise of the BoM is, let alone the stories and scriptures that used to be taught when it was as equally important a resource as the Bible.

[pushka]

Now I am TOTALLY confused!

So we have the LDS, the RLDS and the Community of Christ? 3 separate LDS based churches?

Do both the LDS and RLDS consider the BoM a true, historical and inspired history of Jesus' visit to the Americas?

Why does the Community of Christ church not do so....or do they now believe it is, as per the quote:

'Scripture

The scriptures provide divine guidance and inspired insight for life when responsibly interpreted and faithfully applied. With other Christians, we affirm the Bible as scripture for the church. In our tradition, the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants are additional scriptural witnesses of God’s love and Christ’s ministry.' From Maureen's post?

It seems strange that there could be 3 different strains of LDS church, with conflicting ideas about one of its most important pieces of doctrine, would anybody care to delve into the history of the split in the LDS church where these other parts were formed, and the differences in their beliefs? I have heard a little about the differences of some LDS members (don't know if they belong to CoC or RLDS) in which they still believe that polygamy should be allowed etc. Would be great to have the full history explored, and see why members of each of these churches conflict in their views, and which parts of the original LDS teachings they share a belief in.

[Jenda]

Pushka, you have asked a very long, very complicated question, with the history going back to 1844.

At the death of Joseph Smith, Jr., the church split into numerous factions, the LDS being the largest. Each of the splits claimed to be the original church with differing ways authority was passed onto their group. Most of these groups died a quick death, some a slow and painful death, and 3 or 4 of them are still around today. The LDS church, and the RLDS church being the largest of those groups.

The RLDS church continued with the son of Joseph Smith (Joseph Smith, III) as it's leader, and the Smith family remained in it's leadership till just about 6 years ago. The RLDS church denounced all of the teachings and doctrines that entered the church in the Nauvoo years and focused on the church, as restored in 1830, for it's foundation. Both accepted the BoM and the D&C up through those sections that had been approved at the time of JS,Jr.'s, death. The LDS added other "revelations" of Joseph's many years after he was killed, the RLDS added revelations from their succeeding prophets.

For a long time, the RLDS church had an identity crisis. In many ways, although we wholeheartedly had the doctrine we agreed was of God, as well as the scriptures we believed were of God, the RLDS church was more known for who we weren't than who we were. Along about the 60's, many leaders of the church became embarassed by the Book of Mormon and the history of the church, and sought to distance themselves from them, above the cries of the membership that did not want to give those things up. So they began "modernizing" and "mainstreaming" the church. They stopped teaching the history of the church, they stopped teaching about the BoM, they bought Sunday School curriculum from the United Church of Christ, and the restored gospel almost became lost. But, in 1984, when the prophet received a revelation that women should be ordained, those saints who were not happy with what had been going on over the years separated themselves from the RLDS church and started worshipping separately. They called themselves "restorationists". The church continued down their chosen path, getting farther and farther away from a restoration church, until a couple of years ago, they changed the name of the church to the Community of Christ. When they did that, the group that had stopped attending started calling themselves RLDS. While the CoC legally still holds the name "Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints", they do not hold to the precepts that the church did while using that name, and the restorationists do.

So, in effect, the restorationist RLDS of today is what the RLDS church was when it was reorganized in 1860 with Joseph Smith, III. There are many in the CoC that still believe the "old ways", but they sit quietly and let things happen around them. There really isn't much they can do, anyway. The liberals have made sure that no conservative (or traditional RLDS) voice is heard within the church.

So, in answer to your question, the LDS and the RLDS restorationists believe the BoM to be historically true. The CoC will not make that assertion.

In answer to your very last question, yes it would be great to explore the similarities. Unfortunately what usually ends up happening is that the differences get explored, instead.

[pushka]

Thank you Jenda...I have read a little about the RLDS, as I said...I knew that it went back as far as the death of Joseph Smith...so did the RLDS continue to follow his son, you say? Joseph Smith 111? and did the LDS continue to follow Brigham Young at that time?

Regarding the additions made to the BoM since the death of J.Smith, by the LDS and RLDS..do you think God would really put 2 sets of prophets/apostles etc. in the same part of the world at the same time, teaching virtually the same original doctrine, but disagreeing over later bits, and still regard them both as 'true'?

I must admit that the United Church of Christ part in all this is more confusing to me, because I know less about it...

I just can't see how 2 sets of churchgoers (3 maybe), all originating from the LDS church can be the 'true' church...it seems ridiculous that God would send some revelation to your prophets and apostles and some to others, rather than the same revelation to all...

I know it is easier to speak of the differences of beliefs between your organisations, but perhaps you could just do a quick summary of beliefs of you all...and mark which ones you agree upon. :)

[Jenda]

Originally posted by pushka@Jan 25 2005, 06:58 PM

Thank you Jenda...I have read a little about the RLDS, as I said...I knew that it went back as far as the death of Joseph Smith...so did the RLDS continue to follow his son, you say? Joseph Smith 111? and did the LDS continue to follow Brigham Young at that time?

Yes, the LDS followed Brigham Young and the RLDS followed Joseph Smith, III.

Regarding the additions made to the BoM since the death of J.Smith, by the LDS and RLDS..do you think God would really put 2 sets of prophets/apostles etc. in the same part of the world at the same time, teaching virtually the same original doctrine, but disagreeing over later bits, and still regard them both as 'true'?

Well, now you get to the nitty gritty of it.

I do not believe that there can be two true churches. The BoM states that there will be two churches. The church of God and the church of Satan. I have approached that point in my life, due to the circumstances I have seen the church go through over the years, that I don't believe that any "organized religion" is "the true church". The true church is that body of believers who have taken on the name of Christ and follow His commandments. Some of them have the benefits of knowing the restored gospel, and some of them don't. The only benefit I see of one of the churches that sprang from the early restored church is that of priesthood authority. Because I do believe that that is required. And I believe that that authority now resides in the RLDS Restorationists. They carry the same gospel as the church when it was restored in 1830, without all the additions the LDS have made, and without all the deletions the CoC has made.

I just can't see how 2 sets of churchgoers (3 maybe), all originating from the LDS church can be the 'true' church...it seems ridiculous that God would send some revelation to your prophets and apostles and some to others, rather than the same revelation to all...

I agree. I don't have a problem with more than one prophet at the same time, however, for all them to be true, they must all be receiving the same truths. However, not all people are ready for all truths. It could be possible that each prophet received only those truths the people he is responsible to can accept and accomodate, with more truths to be revealed at a later time. It is not a concept that I particularly hold to, but I could see that it could be possible.

I know it is easier to speak of the differences of beliefs between your organisations, but perhaps you could just do a quick summary of beliefs of you all...and mark which ones you agree upon. :)

That would be much harder, and require more input than just what I can share. But I can give it a try. I might start another thread for that so others can help.

[pushka]

Thank you Jenda...those were very interesting and helpful replies...I look forward to seeing the new thread, and hope that others will be able to assist you in it...without resorting to all sorts of scriptual quoting from, mainly, lds works, as sometimes they get a little confusing!!! I haven't studied my bible/bom/d&c for many years!

[Snow]

Originally posted by john doe@Jan 24 2005, 11:11 PM

Any comments? Inquiring minds want to know.

Sounds like a bunch of nonsense to me.

40 feet is what? 4 x 10'? Maybe 4 x 12' at most. That would take someone some bamboo and rope and a machete or a carabinger or two a day or a couple days so to climb to, not years or decades or whatever it is.

How about a little more evidence and a little less testimony. It would be great if I was wrong but I'm not holding my breath.

Is there any other source of information on this? From someone who's idea of archeology is a little more sophisticated than "dig(ing) vigorously, almost like a dog"?

[john doe]

your point seems directed at the fact that they can't enter a sealed cave 40 feet up the side of a cliff.

One of the problems is that Neil is confined to a wheelchair, and trekking across jungle terrain is difficult, but not impossible, as he does it frequently, but getting up the side of a cliff to do the work that needs to be done there is a bit more of a problem.

Not to sound like a jerk about this, but do you suppose it would be okay for Neil to send one of the other members of the team up the cliff instead of attempting to go up there himself? I personally would be inclined to excuse him from the climb if he is confined to a wheelchair. And I missed the part where it is sealed. If it is sealed, how do they know it is even there? Is that part of the problem why they can't get up to it, they really don't know where the entrance is?

As far as the church sanctioning this endeavor, it is in no way related to the church. The church cannot even continue to claim that they believe that the BoM is a historical document (the church leaders certainly don't, so they don't encourage the membership to, either), so they have no interest in proving that it is. All the expeditionary work must be done at Neil's expense, which might be another reason why this is not proceeding as fast as some would like.

Have they contacted other organizations who may be receptive to the idea that their discovery may help prove the BoM? Someone who, perhaps, maybe, might just be involved with BYU? I would think that if someone there were involved, they might be able to raise enough money to buy the appropriate materials for a ladder to get to this cave in a very short period of time. Or is the idea of cooperating with the LDS on such an endeavor akin to sleeping with ones relatives to these guys? I'm wondering if the reason they haven't been in cooperation with others is that maybe their "discovery" just doesn't hold water when their story is investigated.

I would also like to know if any of this has been substantiated by an actual recognized archeological authority, who, as Snow says, uses methods more sophisticated than "digging like a dog".

[Jenda]

Originally posted by john doe@Jan 25 2005, 11:45 PM

Have they contacted other organizations who may be receptive to the idea that their discovery may help prove the BoM? Someone who, perhaps, maybe, might just be involved with BYU? I would think that if someone there were involved, they might be able to raise enough money to buy the appropriate materials for a ladder to get to this cave in a very short period of time. Or is the idea of cooperating with the LDS on such an endeavor akin to sleeping with ones relatives to these guys? I'm wondering if the reason they haven't been in cooperation with others is that maybe their "discovery" just doesn't hold water when their story is investigated.

I would also like to know if any of this has been substantiated by an actual recognized archeological authority, who, as Snow says, uses methods more sophisticated than "digging like a dog".

I don't know who they have contacted regarding help, physical, financial, or otherwise. Neil Steede is a world-renowned archeologist and you can google him if you choose to. Maybe you can call the team at BYU and see if they are even interested in an endeavor like this.

Snow's comment, as far as I am concerned, is ignorable. The person he is talking about is just a person who was along for the ride who felt led by God to dig where he was sitting. The fact that he dug and came up with a stone with ancient languages written on it is pretty good for someone who "just started digging with his hands".

[Snow]

Originally posted by Jenda+Jan 26 2005, 06:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Jan 26 2005, 06:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--john doe@Jan 25 2005, 11:45 PM

Have they contacted other organizations who may be receptive to the idea that their discovery may help prove the BoM? Someone who, perhaps, maybe, might just be involved with BYU? I would think that if someone there were involved, they might be able to raise enough money to buy the appropriate materials for a ladder to get to this cave in a very short period of time. Or is the idea of cooperating with the LDS on such an endeavor akin to sleeping with ones relatives to these guys? I'm wondering if the reason they haven't been in cooperation with others is that maybe their "discovery" just doesn't hold water when their story is investigated.

I would also like to know if any of this has been substantiated by an actual recognized archeological authority, who, as Snow says, uses methods more sophisticated than "digging like a dog".

I don't know who they have contacted regarding help, physical, financial, or otherwise. Neil Steede is a world-renowned archeologist and you can google him if you choose to. Maybe you can call the team at BYU and see if they are even interested in an endeavor like this.

Snow's comment, as far as I am concerned, is ignorable. The person he is talking about is just a person who was along for the ride who felt led by God to dig where he was sitting. The fact that he dug and came up with a stone with ancient languages written on it is pretty good for someone who "just started digging with his hands".

I don't know about "world-renowned" but obviously he is a meso-american archeologist or has been employed as such.

The whole thing smells of amateur hour however. FARMS gets called on this stuff from time to time... "hey, come take a look at this cave," or "did you hear about the buried plates and armor that fits giants." When they actually go check, it's a lot of wives tales (no offense to the Misses) and not so much reality.

The guy claims that the writing on the stone they found is Ogam? Ogam big in Ireland and Scotland; no so big with the Nephites though - probably. And they say that God said this:

Then to the group and then the world:  It has started.

Sounds like a b-grade horror flick.

I'd love to be wrong but I rather suspect that soon I'll be saying: "er, whatdidyouexpect?"

[Kevinb93]

I was searching and found this forum and this topic which happens to be of great interest to me. I'm the one who wrote the testimony in question. I guess I should first say that I am a priest in the COC/RLDS and will be 30 this year. Secondly, Neil isn't in a wheel chair, though he does have to wear a boot that has metal supports. He gets around really well. He is an expert in Mayan archeology and also a member of the COC. Hill Cumorah is south of Puebla, in the state of Oaxaca. Neil has spent his entire life validating the Book of Mormon through archeology and has just finished writing a book that in great detail goes into the evidence that is there. As for our expeditions, we are a rag tag group of guys. Each of us has different expertise and a strong sense of purpose. It isn't as easy as it sounds. The cave is only around 40 feet off the ground however the incline is 45 degrees and the jungle floor is made up of decomposing leaves and such. When you get to the cliff face, there isn't a flat surface to work from. We have tried many different things-metal ladders bolted to the cliff face and repelling among them. Complicating the problem is that the cave is now sealed shut. In 76 there was an earthquake that caused a large portion of the cliff face to slide off. When it did, it exposed the cave. However, since then, moss has grown from the top and bottom of the cave mouth until it finally sealed itself shut. Well, dried dead moss doesn't sound bad either, but the moss leached lime from the limestone cliff so now it is like concrete. We have tried drilling with power tools but to no avail thus far.

As for the Mexican govt., they have whole cities that haven't been excavated yet. They won't take an interest in the hill until the plates come forth. Neil presented the tablet at an archeological convention at Ohio State University where it was affirmed that the markings were indeed writing. We have found large amounts of axes and food implementing tools, all of the things you would expect from a battle site, which dates to Jaredite and Nephite/Lamanite. As for the LDS, they aren't sold on this hill as Cumorah.

The thrust of my testimony was spiritual not archeological and our website is very slow to get all the information we want on it, so naturally there are lots of questions. When I was digging and found the tablet, we had just finished a time of prayer and fasting. Neil asked if we were ready to leave, and I said that I was supposed to dig and turned and did just that. It was very surreal. The Spirit works in miraculous ways. :) We all later joked that I looked like a dog when I was digging-thus the many references to digging like a dog. The Spirit had pressed on me the gravity of the situation, so I was digging very fervently with both of my hands and dirt was flying. :) God is wonderful. That He would use me in my imperfect state amazes me. It reaffirms to me that His love is unending. Just think what we could accomplish as a God centered people if we but listen to that still small voice and act on it. My revelation that Zion has started is hard to grasp. Zion isn't going to just one day arrive and we will all be playing harps. Zion has to be worked at. It is a destination that we all should be reaching for. I'll try to explain it the best I can. When either world war broke out, did anyone recognize it? They started out as conflicts between a few that continued to grow until they engulfed the whole of the world, taking many years. Zion too only has to start out with a few believing that it is here. From there it will take the world by storm as more people believe and start living in a Zionic way. It has to start somewhere, and it has.

If anyone has any questions I'll be more than happy to respond, or you can email me. I'm not perfect-nor am I a holier than thou. I'm just a guy who is following the direction of the Spirit as best I can.

Thanks

Kevin Brown

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Kevinb93@Jan 26 2005, 10:24 PM

My revelation that Zion has started is hard to grasp. Zion isn't going to just one day arrive and we will all be playing harps. Zion has to be worked at. It is a destination that we all should be reaching for. I'll try to explain it the best I can. When either world war broke out, did anyone recognize it? They started out as conflicts between a few that continued to grow until they engulfed the whole of the world, taking many years. Zion too only has to start out with a few believing that it is here. From there it will take the world by storm as more people believe and start living in a Zionic way. It has to start somewhere, and it has.

If anyone has any questions I'll be more than happy to respond, or you can email me. I'm not perfect-nor am I a holier than thou. I'm just a guy who is following the direction of the Spirit as best I can.

Thanks

Kevin Brown

Can you tell more about this revelation?

[Jenda]

Kevin, is there a website that talks about the stone with the writing on it? I googled all day today and couldn't find one.

(ps.-- look up at the personal message area on the top right of the screen, I sent you a PM.)

[Traveler]

A few years ago I was of vacation in Mexico visiting some archeological sites when I met a Mayan archeologist named Jose Octavio Davila Morals. He also claims to have discovered the Hill Cumorah north of Mexico City near the East coast of Mexico. He is LDS. There is a book published titled “The Lives and Travels of Mormon and Moroni” by Jerry L. Ainsworth. That is based on Jose’s findings. I would be most interested if there is any relationship between these two claims. Jose is native to Mexico and the area of the Book of Mormon and has spent over 50 years finding Book of Mormon sites and has many exciting stories.

It would appear from Kevin’s post that the two hills are not the same - Jose’s being in the north and Kevin’s being in the south.

The Traveler

[Kevinb93]

Unfortunately there isn't a whole lot more to tell. As it goes with revelation, if your not there and can't witness first person the nature of the Spirit as it is given, then belief comes with faith. I have learned to be skeptical so I understand people’s skepticism. The best way to give you more is to give you context, so here goes.

First off, April 6th this year was a high holy day for the Jews. We felt that it was important so we planned a day of prayer and fasting specifically set aside for the 6th. After a couple rounds of prayer, in which we asked for encouragement among many other things, I said that I was to dig and started digging..... I said that the script was Ogam, though never having seen Ogam before. That's not like me. I don't like saying things unless I am pretty darn sure that I'm right. The Spirit prompted me to say that so that we would not mistake finding the tablet as something that was done by accident. God's planning is amazing..... I carried the tablet down the mountain, making sure to keep it away from my body so that I didn't scratch it. It takes about an hour to hike through the jungle just to get to the clearing. About half way down I realized that I had left everyone else behind, as they were helping Neil. I then came to a spot where the sun penetrated the jungle and I stopped in my tracks as the Spirit overpowered me. I bent over and put my elbows on my knees and began crying. The Spirit was so strong that I couldn't contain myself. (The only other time that has happened to me was at the Kirtland Temple) Some things were then revealed to me. Questions were answered as I thought of them. This is the part of finding the tablet that is hard to explain. With the tablet itself, there is something concrete to put your hands on; the workings of the Spirit are such that you can't. No matter how I try, I don't know that I will ever be able to adequately explain the experience. I then understood why a lot of the things that had happened to our group over the past few years had happened. When I managed to get myself together, I moved further down the trail and when I reached another spot where the sun came through the same series of events occurred, only with different answers to different questions, some personal, some for others. It was pressed on me to tell different people different things and then it was pressed on me to say that “it has started.”

Well, that night at our devotions I said what I was supposed to say to some of the members of our group, only I kept back the part about “it has started.”

The next day we began our drive home when around noon "It has started" entered my thoughts. As they did, the Spirit once again rested on me to say it. A few minutes later we stopped at a gas station and as I walked to the store the thought again came upon me, and the Spirit again rested very heavily on me to say it. That night when our devotions were finished, I said that I had one more message to give. I wrestled with getting the words to come out of my mouth, but they did. I said that “It has started. Specifically that the coming forth of the plates and the establishment of Zion has started.” The Spirit touched each one of us that was there and it was confirmed by many that what I had said was true. I know that the natural reaction to my whole experience is to be skeptical or to say that we are a bunch of fanatics, but we aren't. I wish I could give everyone a scientific explanation. I can't. I don't have scientific answers, mine are spiritual. I can tell you that Ogam has shown up in America, specifically on a colossal head at La Venta. That's scientific for the tablet. The spiritual is altogether different. It comes down to faith - faith in someone else's statements, someone whom you have never met or heard of. I would have a hard time with it. I know it to be true though. :)

Sorry, that's the long answer. Let me know if you have any other questions.

Kevin

[Kevinb93]

As for now, I don't know of any website that is talking about the stone. It has taken longer than expected to tansliterate the Ogam into latin and then ancient Hebrew. That is almost done now and will be sent off to the linguist for translation. We had sent off a partial transliteration, but some errors were found and new markings as well. Once the linguist-who is not associated with any church and knows nothing of the spiritual aspects of the tablet, gets the full transliteration, it shouldn't take long to decifer. Our website is being done by a friend of mine so a lot of the info isn't on there that we would like. We'll probably hire someone to do it because we have so many resources that we would love to include. My friend is just too busy to get to it in a timely manner. We really rushed to get the site going so that we could get the testimonies out there. Once the tablet is officially done, then we will be presenting it much more. Just kind of in a holding patern until that gets done.

[Amillia]

I find it interesting that the mountain was opened by an earthquake and then closed by lime infested moss. Maybe it is because we are to know it exists but are not ready to receive what is inside.

[Idacat]

Originally posted by Kevinb93@Jan 27 2005, 12:33 AM

...................It has taken longer than expected to tansliterate the Ogam into latin and then ancient Hebrew.  That is almost done now and will be sent off to the linguist for translation.  We had sent off a partial transliteration, but some errors were found and new markings as well.  Once the linguist-who is not associated with any church and knows nothing of the spiritual aspects of the tablet, gets the full  transliteration, it shouldn't take long to decifer..............

Hopefully you mean decipher?

What is the point of "transliterating" from "Ogam" to Latin and then to Hebrew??

I'm thinking a nice straightforward translation would work as well.

I'm myself am an archaeologist by education and profession and have seen the field of Book of Mormon archaeology progress at BYU incredibly since the days of Ross Christensen in the 1950's and 1960's through to today's scientifically trained and oriented archaeologists. This is still an active field at BYU and you can, if you are so inclined, take Book of Mormon Archaeological Tours sponsored by BYU. Many publications are also available if you want to read about Mesoamerican archaeology from the LDS perspective.

Archaeological explorations related to scriptures can only be seen as validating those scriptures in very broad ways, not as having the ability to confirm any scripture as literally historically "true". That is still necessarily up to faith.

IMO, one person's assertion that grooves on the heads at La Venta are "vowelless Ogam", which is fairly unique to Neil Steede does not prove, in any way that that is what the grooves in the heads actually ARE. Having seen them myself...........the grooves are grooves.

What I see here is "faith based archaeology"; pun intended.

[Kevinb93]

Ummm.......I'm trying to take the high road here. Sorry that I misspelled a word. You are certainly entitled to your educated opinion. I, personally, am putting my faith in the Lord and where He has led me and not in any "establishment." I'll have to disagree and say that married ogam exists, based on my own personal experiences. Out of my testimony, you chose to criticize my spelling and say that "the grooves are grooves?" It could just as easily be said that it is your opinion that "the grooves are grooves." I'll stick with the person who carries the Spirit with them.

[shanstress70]

I have seen many, many references from those in LDS leadership positions that Hill Cumorah is in NY. These references include talks given by apostles, as well as a letter by F. Michael Watson, Secretary to the First Presidency.

Since there is no evidence of a war in NY, are LDS (& RLDS) just looking wherever they can possibly find evidence of many dying in a war? And just b/c it occurred within the same time frame as the war in the BoM, isn't it a far stretch to say that the artifacts are from the war in question?