Does God want members of His Church to prosper financially?

[Snow]

Snow, are you saying we shouldn't pray for material success?

(Alma 34:20 comes to mind, as does a scripture in 2 Nephi)

Not at all - I am simply pointing out that there is zero significant evidence that praying for it does any good.

If I am wrong, I'd like to see the evidence.

... and here's what prompted my thought - there is a lady in my ward who desperately needs a job - tough family circumstance and is or was convinced that because of her continual praying and dedication to defeating Prop 8, the anti-gay marriage initiative, that she would get a job. Last I checked, she was still unemployed. Now I would have given her a job without her praying but she was holding out for a better offer from on high.

Edited March 27, 2009 by Snow

[hordak]

So is there any unbiased or scientific evidence that people that give glory to God are more blessed than those that don't?

Absolutely not. In fact there is a scripture about God causing it to rain on the just and unjust.

I believe prayer is for us.

Then again I'm a deist (cultural Mormon)

[Snow]

Absolutely not. In fact there is a scripture about God causing it to rain on the just and unjust.

I believe prayer is for us.

Then again I'm a deist (cultural Mormon)

Ah - a student of the Enlightenment. Cool

[solomon-helaman]

So is there any unbiased or scientific evidence that people that give glory to God are more blessed than those that don't?

I don't understand why you want the scientific evidence. Most of it is biased anyway. On the other hand is there any scientific evidence saying that giving glory to God has nothing to do with the blessings we recieve?

[Newcomer4831]

Do you mean you hope God does not want us to proper? Why wouldn't he?

I'm sorry, I should have explained. "It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom." Also, money only brings trouble, there is a reason why they say that money is the root of all evil.

But I'm sure God would want us to prosper, but through other means: family, faith and community perhaps. But not money, thinking that God wants us to prosper through money creates corruption; people will do anything for money if they think that material things only means that God favors them more.

Also, another way of thinking it, do you think that the Muslim society is more blessed than the United States? The leading Muslim nations are sitting on "lakes" of oil.

Some of the Holiest men alive didn't have a dollar in their pockets.

[Snow]

I don't understand why you want the scientific evidence.

Because evidence is what sets reality apart from superstition.

Most of it is biased anyway.

Somehow I rather suspect that you will be offering no proof of that claim.

On the other hand is there any scientific evidence saying that giving glory to God has nothing to do with the blessings we recieve?

He who makes the claim bears the burden of proof.... in this case, er, you.

[Guest missingsomething]

I dont think it is a sin to have money- I think it is however, a sin to prosper when you know others are suffering and out of greed you do not help them (or excuses like...well, if they want something they should work for it, or no one handed me anything). Or if you are paying your faithful 10% tithing but scrimping on the others.

I think personally, that many in the church are not "wealthy" for 2 reasons 1)majority of poor people are willing to humble themselves and accept Christ and feel the hope and joy the spirit brings. 2)I think money does cause a lot of problems, some unintended, some brought on by those who have the money -but I think God just wants us to be self sufficent and to provide for our needs. When we get too much money - perhaps more wants turn into needs? I dont know....lol Im not rich so I cant say!

I think it also plays into the do not covent they neighbor.....

[Newcomer4831]

Money is a creation of man, not God.

[Snow]

LDS leaders condemn 'Rampant materialism,' announce new temples - Salt Lake Tribune

This just in... President Monson neglects to proclaim that God wants you to get rich.... will miracles never cease!

[prospectmom]

I think it is a sin sometimes in how you choose to make money... Do you take advantage of people... Do you over inflate prices etc ... Are you honest... Is it more than just making a buck??? I think all these marketing schemes on the internet and tv are just so dishonest another take on the pyramid schemes... Multi level marketing.... give me a break..... I just can't by into all that garbage...

[solomon-helaman]

LDS leaders condemn 'Rampant materialism,' announce new temples - Salt Lake Tribune

This just in... President Monson neglects to proclaim that God wants you to get rich.... will miracles never cease!

What is your definition of rich? The brothern have asked us to live within our means. The church lives within it's means. They are building on average a church building a day. Temples are being announced at an amazing rate. It is my understanding (Could be wrong) that the church has a surplus of budget for it's buildings so that it can continue to build at the pace it does for five years if were not to add any money to it. I know that not all church building come at the same price but our building here in Gilbert, AZ cost about 5 million dollars (Once again second hand knowledge) They will also be building a temple here soon that has a budget for 60 million dollars. You do the math. The church is rich, but it lives within it's means.

Elder Christofferson said it that article you posted that we are to live within our means and help others around us. I go back to my pie analogy. When four people are wanting a piece of pie we should give each an equal portion, which would be a quarter each. So, how do we get more? The principle of creation. Create a bigger pie. We get more, and so do others around us. So, yes to the previous poster that says it matters how we earn our money. We should create our wealth in a way that will bless the lives of those around us.

Sorry, but I don't totally agree that man created money. God created ALL things on this earth. Man has taken this creation and used it for evil, but it is still a creation of God.

[solomon-helaman]

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/19556-widtsoe-magnetic-forces.html

Here is an interesting thread talking about some of the science of magnetic forces. Some of it is a little iffy, but an interesting thread to say the least.

[Snow]

What is your definition of rich? The brothern have asked us to live within our means. The church lives within it's means. They are building on average a church building a day. Temples are being announced at an amazing rate. It is my understanding (Could be wrong) that the church has a surplus of budget for it's buildings so that it can continue to build at the pace it does for five years if were not to add any money to it. I know that not all church building come at the same price but our building here in Gilbert, AZ cost about 5 million dollars (Once again second hand knowledge) They will also be building a temple here soon that has a budget for 60 million dollars. You do the math. The church is rich, but it lives within it's means.

Elder Christofferson said it that article you posted that we are to live within our means and help others around us. I go back to my pie analogy. When four people are wanting a piece of pie we should give each an equal portion, which would be a quarter each. So, how do we get more? The principle of creation. Create a bigger pie. We get more, and so do others around us. So, yes to the previous poster that says it matters how we earn our money. We should create our wealth in a way that will bless the lives of those around us.

My point was that The Lord's annointed sound one way and people on the internet promoting get-rich gimmicks sound another way.

Why am I not surprised you are from Arizona?

Sorry, but I don't totally agree that man created money. God created ALL things on this earth. Man has taken this creation and used it for evil, but it is still a creation of God.

I don't think so.

Did God create Hitler's desire to kill Jews?

Did God create our "intelligences?"

[Newcomer4831]

I think there is a misconception about money, about it's value. It's only as valuable as the institute that created it. Yes, the cotton film in which it's printed on, that may have been made by God, but the value and the turmoil people strive for a piece of paper that's essential poor version of fire tinder, these are things that Man has put into it. And if you are willing to say that the value of money is derived from God, then there are "negative" ramifications that goes along with that.

Edited March 27, 2009 by Newcomer4831

[Hemidakota]

LDS leaders condemn 'Rampant materialism,' announce new temples - Salt Lake Tribune

This just in... President Monson neglects to proclaim that God wants you to get rich.... will miracles never cease!

I get chuckle on where the site was planned for and noting it oversees the Vatican.

I agree....we learn a valuable lesson in not living a prudent life style.

[Hemidakota]

I think there is a misconception about money, about it's value. It's only as valuable as the institute that created it. Yes, the cotton film in which it's printed on, that may have been made by God, but the value and the turmoil people strive for a piece of paper that's essential poor version of fire tinder, these are things that Man has put into it. And if you are willing to say that the value of money is derived from God, then there are "negative" ramifications that goes along with that.

Wasn't it not the Canaanites who instituted battering with materials or metals as the first montary system? After affect is that later, it creates classes of people.

[rameumptom]

LDS leaders condemn 'Rampant materialism,' announce new temples - Salt Lake Tribune

This just in... President Monson neglects to proclaim that God wants you to get rich.... will miracles never cease!

Snow, there's a problem with this link. That information is almost 6 months old! Can't you find anything more current? After all, materialism back in 2008 is very different than the AIG bonuses of 2009. Right? Right? </sarcasm>

[rameumptom]

All I know is that LDS people promise and commit to being a consecrated people. The Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood requires a full commitment as we are expected to "magnify" our priesthood. The riches God promises are not necessarily monetary or materialistic. They are riches of eternity (D&C 14:7). As we magnify our priesthood, we "become sons of Moses and of Aaron, and of the seed of Abraham."

We are told time and again in the scriptures to first seek after the kingdom of God and its riches, and then all other things will be added. That does not mean we will be materially wealthy, but that our needs will be met. I find an interesting contrast between praying to God for wealth and things, until our eyeballs explode (or we get the item), and the way the scriptures teach us to pray.

We are taught to give thanks in all things to God. We are commanded to "ask not amiss." We are taught that when we are filled with the Spirit, we will ask for those things that are proper.

I believe that when we are guided by the Spirit in our prayers, all of our righteous desires come to pass. I really do not believe the Spirit is going to have us pray for material wealth. Nephi, son of Helaman, was promised that anything he asked of God would come to pass, because God knew Nephi's will and desires were in tune with God's and that he would not ask amiss. So, when Nephi asked for a famine, he got it. Why didn't Nephi just ask for wealth for everyone instead? After all, if every Nephite were rich, wouldn't they have stopped warring and fighting? The key is, Nephi knew that life is more than filling the belly. We are spiritual and immortal beings, and the end result is what counts. Causing a famine to destroy the wicked, and giving all the chance to become humbled and perhaps be saved eternally, was a much greater reward.

Here's a similar experience. Benjamin F. Johnson, in his diary, wrote about returning from a mission. His family was financially doing well, with the crops and cattle strong. The family members were not excited to see him after the several years he had been gone, and basically told him to keep out of their way. Benjamin immediately went inside the house, and prayed for destruction on his family to humble them. As he finished his prayer, a whirlwind came down out of a clear sky, destroying all their crops and killing most of their livestock. The family cried, but he thanked God for the blessing.

[a-train]

I think there is a misconception about money, about it's value. It's only as valuable as the institute that created it.

This is only true of fiat paper money. The value of commodity money is a function of that commodity's relative value in the marketplace regardless of the entity that put it into supply.

-a-train

[Just_A_Guy]

Not at all - I am simply pointing out that there is zero significant evidence that praying for it does any good.

If I am wrong, I'd like to see the evidence.

But, Snow, your definition of "evidence" is oh-so-carefully crafted. You're not interested in scriptural evidence (do I really need to catalog for you all the scriptural promises about prayers being answered--"ask and ye shall receive", ad infinitum?). You've already declared, in other threads, your opinion of the evidentiary value of spiritual manifestations. And first-hand testimony will quickly be dismissed as purely anecdotal and of no statistical value.

[Islander]

But, Snow, your definition of "evidence" is oh-so-carefully crafted. You're not interested in scriptural evidence (do I really need to catalog for you all the scriptural promises about prayers being answered--"ask and ye shall receive", ad infinitum?). You've already declared, in other threads, your opinion of the evidentiary value of spiritual manifestations. And first-hand testimony will quickly be dismissed as purely anecdotal and of no statistical value.

I think Snow is referring to "wealth" in general, not just the fruit of your hands.

If you work for a living you will never be wealthy, which is a measure (multiple) of the average earnings for your educational level. Wealth comes from the aggregation of labor and business transactions involving the sale of goods and services, trading, speculation and not mere employment for wages.

[Snow]

Snow, there's a problem with this link. That information is almost 6 months old! Can't you find anything more current? After all, materialism back in 2008 is very different than the AIG bonuses of 2009. Right? Right? </sarcasm>

Sorry - I was just looking at the Faith section of the SL Tribune Faith - Salt Lake Tribune and it show up as a current story. I didn't notice the date.

[Snow]

But, Snow, your definition of "evidence" is oh-so-carefully crafted. You're not interested in scriptural evidence (do I really need to catalog for you all the scriptural promises about prayers being answered--"ask and ye shall receive", ad infinitum?). You've already declared, in other threads, your opinion of the evidentiary value of spiritual manifestations. And first-hand testimony will quickly be dismissed as purely anecdotal and of no statistical value.

Scriptural "evidence" is not really evidence. It's simply a case of someone's opinion - as if someone having an opinion makes it true.

Do you accept the Koran as scriptural evidence? It's only evidence if you accept as a precondition that what is said scripturally is true.... it's nothing but circular reasoning, ie. it's evidence of what I believe to be true because I accept it as true in the first place.

I was thinking of real evidence.

[prospectmom]

I was thinking of real evidence.

What is real even scientific evidence of things changes

[Snow]

I was thinking of real evidence.

What is real even scientific evidence of things changes

You might have a typo. What's the question?