Does God want members of His Church to prosper financially?

[WillowTheWhisp]

I see much in it that IS consistent with the gospel as I understand it.

I haven't read all of it yet as reading on a computer screen is difficult for me apart from in short bursts due to an ongoing eye problem; but having said that, what I have read so far doesn't seem out of step with what I have always been led to believe is an underlying principle of the Book of Mormon - the Nephites were righteous, they were blessed, they prospered, they grew rich, they became proud, they forgot God, they became impoverished, they repented, they became righteous, they prospered, they grew rich etc, etc.

This morning I've got a classic example of a situation where a bit of prospering would be a good thing. My daughters attend early morning semenary. The teacher phoned this morning at 6am just as they were ready to leave, to say that his car had broken down (again) and he couldn't get there so seminary was cancelled, again. This has happened so many times because he has an old car and it breaks down all the time. If he could afford to get a more reliable car, not even necesarily a new one, then there wouldn't be this problem. Now surely that is a righteous desire? The students are worried that they won't graduate because they have so much work to do to catch up as they are way behind the rest of the Stake. Public transport isn't an option as nothing goes in that direction and walking several miles in the morning in the dark is dangerous around here.

[Elgama]

they could ask CES director is seminary can be changed to home study and a once a week evening meet.

I think what people are saying is prospering isn't wrong, but aiming for the financial instead of doing what the Lord wants and accepting it as a side blessing is

-Charley

[WANDERER]

Hmmm.... I confess to being tired of hearing about poverty, blessed are the poor and that its as a good a ticket as any to heaven and being Christlike and such and wealth as a sign of righteousness and abundance and walking in the blessings of God...but nevermind that much harder to be righteous and a high likelihood of going to hell...cause it all sounds like confusion to me. But in the context of the Nephites ....

I'm going for the concept that what you do with what you get is the yardstick...faithfulness and effort ....one penny in the poorbox or five talents into ten...the effort is measured in lengths rather than weights.

Edited March 19, 2009 by wandering

[Elgama]

completely agree Wandering its not what you have its what you do with what you are blessed with.

If someone had an amazing talent for nursing should they use it or should they become a Doctor because it pays more?

-Charley

[WillowTheWhisp]

OK if you are all right that it is better for us to be poor, why does the church keep asking us for more money than we have got available to give? Our Stake President and Bishop have both given us talks recently about the need for us to pay more money to the church to support this and that and the other - but if we are already living on the edge and giving all we can in tithes and fast offerings and missionary fund etc how can we find more to give out of the nothing we have left?

[beefche]

I consider myself a wealthy person. I make a good salary, but that's not what makes me wealthy, imo. I was able to get out of debt and stop living paycheck to paycheck. I have good health, good family, good friends. I have a satisfying life. THAT makes me wealthy.

I also think that it's not so much how much you have, but how you treat what you have that is important to God. I want more money--especially for my retirement. Not so much to buy a luxury home/car/whatever. I want to serve as many missions as I can afford. So, my goal of making more money isn't a sin. How I acquire that money is honorable--I'm working and saving/investing.

Someone who works and has little still pays the same amount of tithing as I do and as much as someone with a lot more money--10%. The 10% from a poor person is just as honorable and righteous as the 10% of a rich person. What I have found is that now that I'm able to, I have the honor of helping our ward/stake/church financially when asked. Our bishop has asked us to give even more to the fast--we are in need of funds in our ward. I would never expect someone who is poor to give more than they are able. But, those who can, should because their heart should not be focused on money. And although I have specific goals in mind for my finances, again, it's not my money, so I'll give more to fast offerings and know that I'll still be able to serve my missions as planned.

[gabelpa]

In my branch, about 1/2 of the people that pay Tithing, also include a fast offering. Those fast offerings did not cover the outgoing welfare payments of the unit. Yes, it's made up for on the Stake level, but I'm not privy to the Stake numbers to know if we are in the red in welfare payments.

If paying your Fast Offering puts you onto Church Welfare, then that defeats the purpose.

[Churchmouse]

Evidently he didn't want me to:(

[Hemidakota]

Was the Savior wealthy by the world's standard? Was Joseph Smith wealthy?

[Churchmouse]

Only a wealth of knowledge.

[Islander]

In fact, you can list the prophets and just about ALL of them had no worldly wealth and actually shun the riches of the world for the knowledge of God.

[Hemidakota]

Each of them obtains something that is behind all the wealth this earth can produce. This is where our hearts should be daily. If you can recount the temple endowment ceremonies about the Peter remarks concerning his financial state, it will be well with us.

You know, years ago, I could have been a successful multi-millionaire or perhaps a billionaire by today standards, when I was given exclusively, certain unknown technology of that day that is now considered part of our daily lives. What I did with that information was not to act upon it in seeing its destructive power of what it could do to my salvation. Others acted on this later and now are part of the ever growing Forbes 500 top wealthy list. Why? It was not important as to the real wealth of this mortal life.

[Elgama]

i suspect church asks for us to give more because if we can we should already have given it for a fast offering

-Charley

[Connie]

sgrGODSway,

I have no doubt these laws exist. My concern is whether or not I should personally live them. Satan works by law, too, after all. My concern is whether these laws are consistent with the celestial law of Zion, including the law of consecration.

For example, on page 30, you speak of developing a “mental attitude of ownership,” you speak of possession and ownership, and yet the law of consecration is one of stewardship. My understanding is that we should develop the mental attitude of dependence on God. “Are we not all beggars?” King Benjamin asked his people, “Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have..?” (Mosiah 4:19) We should develop the attitude that all we have is a gift from God. That God has the ownership. I'm afraid if I develop an attitude of ownership I will then have a much harder time doing what King Benjamin admonishes us to do next, “O then, how ye ought to impart of the substance that ye have one to another.” (Mosiah 4:21). If I have the attitude that “this is mine” instead of “this is God's” I will not want to part with my substance and it will be all too easy to say, “God gave this to ME, if you want something similar go ask Him for it yourself.”

Respectfully,

Connie

Edited March 19, 2009 by Connie

[WillowTheWhisp]

Well this morning we had another variation or addition to the seminary teacher car breaking down story. The teacher was on his way to pick up my daughters to take them (and a couple of other girls who live down the road) to seminary when his car broke down at the bottom of our road. I was thankful. Now that may sound a bit mean at first because being thankful for his car breaking down is not good. But it occurred to me that he could have broken down as he was setting off to bring them back and they could have ended up stranded unable to get home and late for school and college.

Home study someone suggested. CES have not offered this as an option because due to the previous seminary teacher being ill most of the time they are so far behind the rest of the stake this year that they need this intensive study with a teacher in order to catch up. Unfortunately it isn't working because of the new teacher's car problems. This morning when he phoned my daughter to appologise he said "Oh I do wish I could get a better car." OK, I already accept that there are many who would condemn that as an unrighteous desire but personally I just can't accept that it is.

[Elgama]

I agree in that instance the whole of his class should be praying for a new car or maybe someone to offer to give everyone a lift, have to say if I knew our seminary class was struggling because of this I would have offered to help ferry people

For me the issue comes with the idea we all need to ridiculously wealthy, I don't agree with that..... The thing about Zion is that there were no poor amongst them it was a community effort. If someone has that much by way of reserves are they paying a true fast offering? etc In the church I lived in growing up, my Uncle would have done something about the car for him, or someone would have provided transport with their own vehicle. They could afford more than everyone else so they paid more

Its the difference between the widows mite who paid all she had, and those that paid what they wanted, both were obeying the law of tithing and offerings, but if your fast offering doesn't bite a little is it enough?

-Charley

Edited March 20, 2009 by Elgama

[WillowTheWhisp]

That's all very well if there is someone in the ward who can do that. I don't think it's about wanting to be ridiculously wealthy either but wouldn't it be wonderful to have enough to be able to 'do something about the car'? unfortunately we don't have anyone who can drive and has a car who is available a that time of the day to offer transport. I dont drive. My husband does but he's on his way to work before Seminary ends. There's a mother with a young baby but she's grabbing as much sleep as she can. We are a small ward and most of us are struggling in different ways.

That thing about in Zion there being no poor amongst them - the law of consecration doesn't acheive that when all the people are at 'struggling' level. There has to be somebody with enough to share to help out those in need. If your fast offering bites a lot but still isn't enough to feed the needy how far do you go before you become the needy? I can't fast because I am diabetic but I still pay a fast offering - does that bite enough? I would still like to be able to give more and afford to pay for the kids to go to EFY but how much does it need to bite? A missed mortgage payment?

I just don't feel it's wrong to desire this or noble to deny it. Maybe the nobility of poverty is in itself some form of pride. Maybe admitting to Heavenly Father that we need things is a form of humility.

[WANDERER]

I find that it is interesting to look at the first few chapters of the New Testament. God sends His Son to the World: there are some provisions for that.

roof over the head

Joseph is employed

have transport (donkey)

education/family

food...wealth enough for travelling on Holy Days and tithing

Humble living ...yes....we're talking a donkey not a ferrari. Abject poverty...no.

What was given and provided for? Why? How was it used? What choices were made about wealth by Jesus? Why? How was it used? Was it ever abject poverty and starvation and a serious self-deprivation of food, clothing and resources that threatened death, disease and the possibility of slavery or servitude (quite common then for the indebted or those without a crust to eat)?

Apparently myrhh and frankincense were quite acceptable...footwashing luxuries were acceptable..so were dinners with wealthy people and items of clothing...fancy cloak and all.

Yep it's kind of demeaning and petty to pick away at these sorts of things from scriptural stories ..do we need a detailed asset list in order to function in the footsteps of righteousness?...it's not my point...

...not the wealth or lack thereof in Jesus's life...principles towards money and all that....but that receiving grace and higher spiritual merit through poverty or wealth is a confusion over what is wanted and required spiritually over tools and materials for our physical state.

If materialism over-rides spiritualism you might have problems and issues with it regardless of how much material possessions you own...while we probably all battle the level that our material concerns limit our spiritual concerns...that is a component of life. It's in place for a reason. Wanting stuff is linked in totally with the fall of an angel..an apple, taking on a physical body, atonement etc. Matter and materialism posed a whole lot of uncomfortable situations in return for the rewards. Matter and materialism are not the enemy people make it out to be...but an essential tool. It's what helps us to perceive that resurrection and what follows has a point to it also.

Our attitudes and effects thereof related to stuff are more problematic than actually having stuff. That it is such a 'religious' issue is the spiritual component to it rather than the material component. You can own it but not be owned by it.

Is it in any way more spiritual to opt for a stone instead of bread; a serpent instead of a fish? Is that good fruit? If that's what you do to yourself is that what you are going to do and expect of other people aka the golden rule?

Having wealth or seeking wealth and prosperity and with an attitude of gratitude for them... why wouldn't you value good gifts from God? "Sorry, this might be soul-destroying," sounds like an inappropriate response. Worried about being blessed? You feel that when you are blessed it is a great inequality? Is free will a problem for you....gotta make everyone equally blessed...and what defines that...Worried about others being blessed? You want to give a blessing away...how do you actually do that...do you become not-blessed in the process of doing so?

When exactly did blessings and good gifts become so ugly and unbecoming to followers of Christ?

Yes, God wants you to prosper...deal with it.

[Hemidakota]

I would place the donkey with a comparable broken down Toyota and not a Ferrari [servant carrying carriage of the time].

[rameumptom]

Last night, my stake held its welfare meeting for the ward leaders, including a DVD presentation by Elder Hales, Sis Beck, and Pres Monson. One concept taught in it by our general presiding Bishop is that welfare assistance is for "life sustaining" issues. If a person needs a car to get to work or church service, that can be considered a proper use of fast moneys to fix or help with the payments on a reliable vehicle.

Something for bishops to consider. Why continue letting all the seminary students miss out on their spiritual growth, when a bishop's check to fix the car could resolve the problem?

[Hemidakota]

Even paying over due bills to include behind mortgages.

Perhaps, as 'poor members' of the church, we should consider moving to either Rancho Santa Fe or Huntington Beach area. Southern Cali folks may know what I am referring too.

[Islander]

Even paying over due bills to include behind mortgages.

Perhaps, as 'poor members' of the church, we should consider moving to either Rancho Santa Fe or Huntington Beach area. Southern Cali folks may know what I am referring too.

Fast offering funds can not be used to pay for a mortgage but can be used for rent. The handbook of instructions has very specific guidelines.

The idea is "life sustaining" and if a repair on a car to go to work is needed that equates to replacing a horse or paying for the vet to heal the horse. Now, that is a far cry from becoming rich and theorizing God's laws into the equation to become so.

Just my thoughts...:)

[sgrGODSway]

Connie

I was gone for a couple of days but I want to get back to you and answer your question.

There are two ways to prosper financially, God's way and Satan's way.

Satan's way is very competitive in nature. God's way is very creative in nature. Satan would have you try to get more by taking from someone else. He would have people think that the supply is limited. Let me use a pizza example. Satan's way is to put 12 starving people in a room with one small, unsliced, pizza and give the knife to the first person and say slice off the amount you WANT and then give the knife to the next person. He says once you have your slice there is no reason to stay in the room and watch what happens to the others because you have your slice. As you can see this creates a delima for those 12 people, and chances are great that most will go hungry.

God's way is to give people the ingredients to make as much pizza as everyone would like to have. Sometimes He asks someone to be a pizza-maker and asks them to make the pizza and share it with others so ALL can have an abundance. Sometimes He asks the pizza-maker to teach another how to make pizza so more people can be served. Sometimes He asks others to produce the ingredients to make the pizza's. The real key to becoming rich God's way is to understand that there is abundance for ALL who desire abundance and there is no need to step on someone else to have all you can righteously use to help yourself and others. The Laws taught in my book teach how to co-create with God, an abundant life that benefits you and everyone around you.

In reading the responses in this post I see that there is a lot of people that feel that you can't have an abundant life AND serve God. That's just not true. Practically everyone in developed countries have things in their lives that would be considered luxuries by the standards of third world countries. How many members of the Church, in the United States of America (there are about 6 million of us) are ready to give up your microwave, oven, refrigerator, car, TV, DVD player, hair-dryer, dishwasher, washer & dryer, etc...? These are luxuries! You CAN survive without them...but do you really want to...or even need to, to make God happy?

BTW...my mission presidents (I had two of them) drove a Cadillac and a Porsche before they were called to serve. One of them, who is now a President in the Quorum of the 70, had a very successful advertising agency. The other was a very successful doctor. Was it wrong for them to not drive a Chevy Malibu and a Volkswagen Beetle? Honestly, I don't think God really cared. These two men became rich God's way, and like Abraham and Job, they were blessed with great wealth. Money, or lack thereof, and righteousness are not mutually exclusive.

In my book I say...over and over and over...I say to counsel with God in all that you do, and get confirmation from Him that He is OK with whatever you are desiring to be, do, or have BEFORE trying to use the Laws of creation. But once you get the peaceful assurance that you are on the right track you need to trust that He is there to help and support you. He wants you to have your righteous desires. He is there to help us in ALL aspects of our lives...even the righteous desires we have for money.

If anyone has ever went on a water-skiing trip or ATV trip; or girls camp or scout camp; or went to Disneyland; or ate at a fancy restaurant; or had a wedding reception at a resort; or attended a professional sporting event; or went to the opera...are you going to tell me these were unrighteous desires and activities? Not likely, especially if YOU were the person who did it. Why didn't you just take the money and put it ALL in fast offerings or send it to some charity in need? I'll tell you why. Because that's not what God wants. He has asked you to counsel with Him in all that you do and He asks you to do His will.

People keep bringing up the Savior and Joseph Smith. God had certain missions for them to accomplish and He provided for their work to be accomplished through the help of others. Some of these others were very financially well off so they didn't need to be. A prophet's time is usually best spent when they are not needing to work for money.

My former mission president, who is now a member of the 70, has a different mission today than the one He had when he was 20 or even 40 years old.

How many modern-day Apostles were successful financially before being called (many)? Lots of money, or little money had nothing to do with their calls to serve. It was their hearts being ready, and God's will that they be called, that made the difference.

There were rich prophets and poor prophets. Money had nothing to do with their being called.

I have seen a trend though. The rich ones supported themselves financially (obviously this was a blessing for them from God) and the poor ones received the support of others. Some of those others were/are rich.

Do not fear money. It's only a tool. Just learn how to use the tool correctly. Only God can tell YOU which of your desires are righteous. Use the “tool of money” for your righteous desires and you'll live happily and abundantly.

Question to ponder...

When Job finished going through his trials why did the God double his previous wealth? Before his trials Job was already a very rich man. Why then did God double all his wealth? Could it be because he proved to be a good steward and God knew he would be able to do even more good with more wealth?

Money tends to magnify who we are. Good people will do good. If you are afraid of money ask yourself "why?" Money isn't the issue. If a person feels it will corrupt them there are deeper issues. If a person is afraid of success or failure those are different issues. One way or another God is going to present us many opportunities in life for us to make changes. We will eventually have to face our issues...and we all have them.

Also please remember that just being good isn't enough to receive financial abundance. You must become rich God's way and obey the Laws...but it isn't as difficult as it may appear to become rich. It doesn't take anymore time to become rich God's way than it does to have a part-time job. You need not devote all your time and energy to becoming rich. When you become rich God's way you are doing it the easiest way possible. When we obey God's Laws regarding the acquisition of money and things there is much less resistance to obtaining our righteous desires. If you don't know how to do this the first thing to do is learn "how."

Edited March 20, 2009 by sgrGODSway

[solomon-helaman]

I think a lot of members today think a lot like the Hebrews who where held captive for 400 years, and God had them go through the wilderness for a long time to get them to stop thinking like slaves and start thinking like the house of Israel that built a mighty kingdom for God. They began to feel entitled to receive blessings from God, because they saw so many miracles. Because of this they became lazy.

There are also members who think like the Christian Jews soon after Christ's resurrection who for a time lived the law of consecration (Acts 4:37), but became greedy and thought they deserve more. (Great story in Acts 5)

The Christian Jews felt that their traditions were the correcct way. What did that give them? Poverty. They needed the Greek Christians converts from Galatia to share their wealth with them. I like what Paul tells the saints there who may have been wondering why they needed to share their finances with the lazy in Jerusalem. Bear one another's burdens and so fulfil the law of Christ. (Gal. 6:2) We are no better than others with less than us. (Gal. 6:3) We should work hard to receive more. (Gal. 6:4-10)

We are not entitled to God's blessings unless we follow His laws. (D&C 130:20-21) I love Brigham Young's council to those who are lazy and do not try to build up God's kingdom.

For the last four years, we have fed, on an average, six hundred people, who come to the Tithing Office, and who never give us a dime for it: and yet they will not acknowledge themselves poor. There are also hundreds of persons in this city, and in other cities in the territory, who require the Bishops to help them, when at the same time they are able to drive a pretty good team, and occupy as good a house as I live in, and are able to have a good garden, and quite a farm. Yet they will go to the Bishops, and say, “Will you let me have a yoke of oxen?” or, “I wish, Bishop, you would let me have those horses; I do not know when I can pay you for them; I am poor;” or, “Will you let me have that carriage that has been put in on tithing? I do not know when I shall pay you for it; I have raised considerable wheat, but I want to get a quantity of clothing with that for my family this year; let me have the carriage anyhow, and I do not want you to ask me for the pay, or say anything about it.” Still we cannot find one family to acknowledge they are sustained by the Church, and own the name of being poor—who cannot sustain themselves. We have the proof on hand for this.

There is much said in the Bible with regard to the rich. In one place it is said, “It is hard for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven;” but “blessed are the poor, for they shall inherit,” Can you understand what the Lord means by these sayings, and others, by His Prophets and Apostles, touching the poor? He means simply this, “Those who have the good things of this world, and will put them to use in building up the kingdom of God on earth; will feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and do good with them; they are my people, saith the Lord.”

But let me tell you, poor men, or poor women, who have nothing, and covet that which is not their own, are just as wicked in their hearts, as the miserly man who hoards up his gold and silver, and will not put it out to use. I wish the poor to understand, and act as they would wish others to act towards them in like circumstances.

Debtors to the Perpetual Emigrating Fund.

An Address by President Brigham Young, Delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, October 6, 1854.

There is nothing wrong with trying to be rich, and I would suggest that God wants righteous saints to succeed financially. We just need to continue with the focus to build up god's kingdom. Let's stop thinking like the poor and start thinking like the rich who are as He says, "His People".

[sgrGODSway]

solomon-helaman

Awesome post! Thank you! I agree completely!