What has changed?

[Maxel]

Huh?

What does that have to do with Jenamarie's post?

If anything, it shows a tilt to the other extreme. When our society says a picture of a mother nursing her baby is obscene, what progress is that?

Elphaba

I was remarking on the fact that, as a society, we are starting to become more aware of social evils and act accordingly. Many will be confused and call innocent acts inappropriate (such as the baby nursing) or inappropriate acts innocent. The root cause is the polarization of good and evil in society, but when people act according to that philosophy, interesting things happen that are actually contrary to the reality of things.

[Traveler]

You are being hypocritical. Gays "recruit" just as much as straights do. Straight men rape women. Straight men molest children. Just because you don't appreciate being hit on by a man doesn't make it any different than unwanted advances toward a woman. They are both inappropriate social behavior. When a man hits on a woman is he "recruiting" her to heterosexuality?

Let us not mix and match. Inviting a person to do something is not predatory if the invitation ends when the invited person says “No thank you”. Recruiting is an attempt to involve someone that would not do so or would hesitate on their own. It is convincing someone that is not convinced.

I would refer the November issue of National Geographic (2004) in reference to the development of the human mind that points out that high level executive decision of moral behavior is not fully developed until a person is 26 years old. Why are children in juror and high school encouraged to “explore” their sexuality (heterosexuality as well as homosexuality)? Again, sexuality releases endorphins and can become as addictive as any drug. Encouragement to explore is nothing more than an effort to “change” behavior and in the case of children that are not capable of high levels of executive decisions for moral behavior must be considered recruitment and an effort addict that individual.

Recruitment is being masked in the try it mentality among the young – In every case I am personally aware concerning homosexuality they were convinced of their orientation at a very young age. Today children are encouraged at younger and younger ages to become addicted to every kind or orientation of sexual behavior – even in the oval office of the President of the United States of America and an ever increasing segment of our society will do nothing more than makes excuses for it.

The Traveler

[bytebear]

I never said it never happened, but if I said, "Missionaries recruit young girls into sex" wouldn't that be a false statement?

[Janice]

Wow. I just got back to this thread after starting it. Interesting where it's ended up... sure did not mean it to be a conversation about homosexuality, but I guess that is the beauty of forums... you never know where the conversation is going to go!

I think the comment I found most insightful was Just_a_Guy's:

I'd say that it's mostly a wheat-tares thing. Society isn't as innocent as it used to be--as the libertines become more openly hedonistic, the rest of us become more puritanical.

In my opinion, I think you hit the nail on the head. I especially like your use of the phrase "Society isn't as innocent as it used to be". The examples I used were kids skinny dipping in the creek, but I think we could find many other examples as well.

Why? How come? Where did this innocence go? What could be more innocent then a mother breast feeding her child? And yet in the story Jenamarie told, some view this as pornography?!?!? That IS a loss of innocence, in my opinion.

I have my theory, but it's just a theory:

Granted... I've only been on this plant for a few years longer then thirty, so my understanding is limited to recent history. Based on what I have seen in my life time and learned about in the years leading up to it, it's my opinion that Satan has done a fantastic job of calling good evil and evil good.

He has managed to convince most of the world that sex before marriage is not only ok, but desirable. He has managed to paint the pornography industry as a viable business that has it's rightful place in our society. He has managed to teach our youth the sexually laced movies and songs are hip and cool. The rank immorality at events like Woodstock are seen as examples of cultural high points... pillars of progress in suppressing closed mindedness. Satan has turned the human body not into Temple, but into a common playground where all are welcome to trample and tread.

In response to this attack, "our" response (ours = the religious conservatives) has been to circle the wagons and to swing the pendulum even further in the other direction. (I know, I'm mixing my metaphors.) What was once acceptable and passed off as innocent slowly became not-so-innocent as we try to distance ourselves from the effects of Satan's onslaught.

Thus, a woman breastfeeding is pornographic. What was once viewed as innocent is now viewed as naughty.

Janice

[aspenmgy]

Ahhh the Tree of Life at the MTC. I recall being shocked hearing the Elders showered in a public setting. Kept me from serving, actually.

[Islander]

Can we be done with this thread? We have to stop getting baited into these silly, endless arguments about this particular subject. It has 2,000 threads and counting. We should move to something more productive.

Just a suggestion

[Janice]

Ahhh the Tree of Life at the MTC. I recall being shocked hearing the Elders showered in a public setting. Kept me from serving, actually.

I did not serve a mission, but when I heard that the sisters had private showers and the the elders had public showers, I was mostly curious as to the disparity. Is it okay for the boys to see each other, but not the girls? Are the sisters more deserving of privacy?

That being said Aspenmgy... was "the MTC tree of life" REALLY what kept you from serving a mission?

Janice

[Janice]

Can we be done with this thread? We have to stop getting baited into these silly, endless arguments about this particular subject. It has 2,000 threads and counting. We should move to something more productive.

Just a suggestion

I did not know this topic has been rehashed. Sorry. I'm still pretty new here. But, I guess I don't see this as a silly discussion at all, and I certainly was not trying to "bait" anyone.

Janice

[bytebear]

I did not know this topic has been rehashed. Sorry. I'm still pretty new here. But, I guess I don't see this as a silly discussion at all, and I certainly was not trying to "bait" anyone.

Janice

Diitto.

[bytor2112]

I did not know this topic has been rehashed. Sorry. I'm still pretty new here. But, I guess I don't see this as a silly discussion at all, and I certainly was not trying to "bait" anyone.

Janice

I think Islander was referring to the part of the discussion that morphed into an argument about "gay" issues, not the OP topic.

[Gwen]

you're all wrong, it has nothing to do with gays....... i realized the answer this morning when i was searching for an answer to an odd behavior of a kitten we have.

in the past she has tried to nurse on her brother... i thought that was odd, some research showed that was not uncommon for kittens weaned to early... but last night she was trying to nurse on herself.... some research showed that too isn't uncommon among kittens weaned to young. which i find very very weird but it got me to thinking about this thread.

that's what's wrong with our society, that's why breastfeeding (or viewing any other body part for that matter) has become sexual and pornographic. that's what changed ...... we sent mothers away from the home and started weaning our babies to young. in response babies were neglected their mother's love and the basics of development from the very beginning. so now we have hormonal youth and adults that latch on to this void and are overly obsessed with body parts that make them feel good.

so i guess we really can blame everything on our mothers.

note: this was said 90% in jest. lol

[Moksha]

I merely stated that some gay people do in fact recruit...

At ease Soldier, this recruitment office is for God's Army only.

This thread is about how our attitudes toward nudity has changed. I remember the old timers when I was young talking about this. Skinny dipping at the watering hole was the norm. That imagery from an earlier post of a backwoods family at the lake with a bar of Ivory soap sounds like something Norman Rockwell should have painted. Skinny dipping at BYU. Skinny dipping at Deseret Gymnasium. Group showers. Sounds like a clean lot of dippers.

[Elphaba]

Your post is about gay men who are predators, and I think it’s important to define what a predator is.

1) Usually when we use the word predator, we are talking about someone who coerces children into having sex with him/her. Nothing in your post indicates you are talking about gay men molesting children, So I am assuming you’re not.

2) Stalking is a crime in most states, and the way you use the word “predator,” it sounds like you may mean “stalker.” I can’t tell for sure, but if you are, then you need to clarify. But since you didn’t say that, I’m assuming you’re not talking about stalkers.

3) My post addresses your remarks exactly the way you wrote them: gay men who are predators by hitting on other men should be stopped. If this is not what you mean by predator, then again, you need to clarify.

That was over 40 years ago and I have not observed any efforts in society to prevent such things especially in the gay community.

Prevent what? Men hitting on you? That is not illegal, as you were an adult.

Additionally, what effort has society, including you, taken to prevent straight men from preying on women? Shouldn’t society address that as well?

Has there ever been a gay in the news for turning in another gay for predatory behavior.

Turn him in for what?

An adult man who cruises bars looking for consensual sex from another adult male could be considered predatory, but it is not against the law.

The same is true for an adult man who cruises bars looking for consensual sex with women. As such, have you ever turned in a straight man for predatory behavior? You condemn gay men for not doing so, thus it is hypocritical for you not to do the same.

If there has been any change in the last 40 years it has favored the predatory gays.

What do you want? Do you want it to be illegal for a gay man to hit on another man?

If so, are you willing to support legislation that a straight man cannot hit on a woman?

Also, do you realize such a law would never make it into the books? An adult has the right to ask for consensual sex from another adult. That doesn’t mean the person has to say yes. It just means the other adult has the right to ask.

The most appalling thing to me is that those that support homosexuality as beneficial to society for the most part will not acknowledge a predatory threat exist or is probable.

What do you want to be done about it? We must insist men who are gay not prey on other men?

Then are you going to do the same for heterosexual men who prey on women? Why aren’t you worked up about that?

If there is any acknowledgement at all there will never be any effort to do anything about it – except make excuses and try to transfer blame.

Acknowledge what? That gay men hit on straight men? Okay, I acknowledge it. That doesn’t automatically make the man a predator.

And once again, are you going to acknowledge straight men try to get women to have sex with them, but there is no effort to do anything about it, except make excuses and try to transfer the blame?

There are gays that are not predatory

Just like there are straight men who are not predatory.

I know many personally and include non-predatory gays in my social circle.

That sounds like “I’m not prejudiced, I have some friends who are black in my social circle.

Frankly, I have a hard time believing gays would be part of your social circle, as you are always so repulsed by them. The only way I can imagine you having a social circle that includes gays is if your friends were anti-gay themselves, including believing they have a negative affect on society. I simply don’t believe they would befriend a person who loudly proclaims that if same-sex marriage is allowed, there will not be a next generation.

Elphaba

[aspenmgy]

I did not serve a mission, but when I heard that the sisters had private showers and the the elders had public showers, I was mostly curious as to the disparity. Is it okay for the boys to see each other, but not the girls? Are the sisters more deserving of privacy?

That being said Aspenmgy... was "the MTC tree of life" REALLY what kept you from serving a mission?

Janice

It was at the time.