Why would God want Adam and Eve to disobey Him?

[MormonGirl02]

Hi everyone. I am just curious. But why would God want Adam and Eve to disobey Him just so that way they could have free agency? It makes no sense to me why God would want His children to disobey Him. Please help!

[bytor2112]

II Nephi 2:

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and call things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself

Edited March 13, 2009 by bytor2112

[livy111us]

God needed man to be in a state where they had to make decisions for themselves, be out of the presence of God, and be tempted. This could not happen as long as they were in the Garden. So God, needed them to fall in order for preocreation, and for the whole plan of salvation to take place (if there was no sin, there would be no need for Jesus. If they could not precreate, then millions would be 'stuck' in the pre-mortal life not progressing). So why didn't God just create them in the state that they need to be in? According to Orson Pratt (IIRC), God could not make anything imperfect, so He had to have a plan that would create humans pefectly, but still end up in a fallen state. Hence the contradictorary commandments to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and to multiply and replenish the earth.

[Ayin]

Hi everyone. I am just curious. But why would God want Adam and Eve to disobey Him just so that way they could have free agency? It makes no sense to me why God would want His children to disobey Him. Please help!

Because if Adam and Eve didnt dispbey him we could not have a mortal body or knowledge to be able to be with him again. If they didnt disobey we wouldnt be here we wouldnt be able to have children and there was no death . They were not mortal until they ate of the fruit

In Moses 5:11 after the fall Eve said "Were it not for our transgression we never should have the seed( children), and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eteral life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

The prophet Lehi also explained If Adam and Eve didnt eat the fruit they would have remained in the Garden of Eden and everything would stay the same.

God knew that this must take place. so we would know joy happiness sadness ect We wouldnt have know the difference.

Sorry was a bit slow typing and it has been answered for you

The Gospel Principles book explains this also.

Edited March 13, 2009 by Ayin

[captmoroniRM]

Adam an Eve already had their free agency. They didn't have to disobey to obtain it. Our agency was with us in the pre-existance. We used it to choose if we would follow Christ or Lucifer.

When they were placed in Eden, they were given two commandments: Multiply and replenish the earth (ie. have kids) and to not eat of the fruit. The Book of Moses sheds some light on this more-so than the Bible account:

"...of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Moses 3:17

God gave them a choice so they could exercise their free agency. Adam and Eve were like children. They were innocent. There was no sin. Without an alternative choice, there would not have a means of using the agency God had given them. From 2 Nephi 2: 16

"Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was centiced by the one or the other."

Satan offered an alternative choice, "eat, and you will not die." Thus, two choices were given allowing Adam and Eve to use their agency.

Without the commandment\law to not eat of the fruit, Adam and Eve would not have had a means of commiting sin. "If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away." (2 Nephi 2:13)

Thus, when Adam and Eve partook of the fruit, they did so knowing that they if they didn't they could not become like God, which would have frustrated the entire plan of God. They would remain forever, innocent, in the garden, and remained in the same state not knowing joy or sorrow. They would not have progressed at all. (2 Nephi 2:22-23).

Heavenly Father knew that in order for mankind to come to earth, and for us to be able to progress, learn, and come to be like him, and experience the fullness of joy, Adam and Eve would have to transgress. Knowing this, he prepared for us a Savior, even Jesus Christ to pay the price for our sins.

Hope that helps.

Edited March 13, 2009 by captmoroniRM
Corrections from the Department of Redundancy Dept.

[applepansy]

Look at it this way: If you were in the Garden of Eden with no incentive to move out, what would you do?

What I would probaly do is stay! Wow, beautiful place, beautiful animals, happiness all around, beautiful weather, never hungry, never sick, no pain. . . sounds pretty nice to me.

1. Adam and Eve came with Agency and Bodies. They did not get agency and bodies after the fall. However, the bodies they had were changed by eating the fruit, which meant they could die, they could procreate and they couldn't stay in the Garden.

2. God gave them a choice which required they exercise their agency. We get in trouble when we assume that God gave conflicting commandments.

3. There is no record of how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden. Maybe they were there for 3,000,000 years with Satan bugging them every day, and decided it was time to have children.

applepansy

EDIT: Adam knew the Plan of Salvation before coming to the Garden.

Edited March 13, 2009 by applepansy
addition

[Just_A_Guy]

I've seen some people suggest that the Lord's injunction to not partake of the fruit wasn't given in the sense of "don't do it . . . ever", but in the sense of "don't do it . . . until I tell you to. Under this (purely speculative) notion (which I think is actually quite plausible, when you think about certain portions of the temple ceremony), the "transgression" wasn't in partaking of the fruit per se but in doing it before the appointed time and without authorization.

[Justice]

Rememeber that Adam and Eve were immortal. Timing is everything when obedience is concerned.

Let me explain.

"Multiply and replenish the earth" was a commandment. At what point did Adam and Eve break this commandment? By doing nothing would "eventually" break it, but how long? Until they die? Wait, they were immortal, they could have been there forever.

So, hence the opposing commandment not to touch the very thing that would give them the knowledge they sought to accomplish the first commandment.

So, they needed to be placed in "time" to be obedient to the first commandment. They had a "time" or "space" prepared to fulfill the first comamndment. It just so happened that it required them to transgress a law (act of commission) in order to get there.

There's no "timing" placed on breaking a law that requires action. You never know when they will get around to doing it. By giving the opposing commandment, God set a time limitation on the first. By multiplying and replenishing the earth, they would be placed in a "time" period to accomplish it... so their obedience could be measured in time.

Edited March 13, 2009 by Justice

[Just_A_Guy]

I'm having a hard time following your post, Justice. Could you rephrase?

Thanks.

[Vort]

God never sanctions disobedience to his word, MormonGirl02. It is never right to disregard God's commandments or counsel.

We do not know what happened in the Garden of Eden, beyond the sketchy and highly figurative representations we have been given. Insofar as Eve (and Adam) knowingly disobeyed God, they sinned and were punished for that sin, exactly as we are punished for our sins.

However, there may be much more to the story than this; as I said, we don't have the whole story by any means. We do know that it's inappropriate to condemn Eve (or Adam), as many others in Christendom seem to do. We do know that because of the fall of Adam, mankind lives today. So in the sense that Eve's disobedience brought about the fall, it can be considered a good thing.

[Guest tomk]

Immortal:

ADJECTIVE:

• Not subject to death: immortal deities; the immortal soul.
• Never to be forgotten; everlasting: immortal words.
• Of or relating to immortality.
• Biology Capable of indefinite growth or division. Used of cells in culture.

NOUN:

• One not subject to death.
• One whose fame is enduring.

=================

Amortal:

The Creation

The Creation culminated with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. They were created in the image of God, with bodies of flesh and bone. 3 Created in the image of God and not yet mortal, they could not grow old and die. 4 “And they would have had no children” 5 nor experienced the trials of life. (Please forgive me for mentioning children and the trials of life in the same breath.) The creation of Adam and Eve was a paradisiacal creation, one that required a significant change before they could fulfill the commandment to have children 6 and thus provide earthly bodies for premortal spirit sons and daughters of God.

If you look at the notes for footnote 3, it says:

3. They were created as amortal beings—“without mortality”—not at that time subject to death.

taken from:

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Atonement

Technically, Adam and Eve were Amortal, not Immortal.

===============================================

I'll let you chew on that. I think it is an important distinction. Atleast, Elder Nelson felt it was an important distinction.

===================================

In my opinion, this all has to do with 2 things: Agency and Eternal Law

1) Man's agency must remain inviolate.

2) God cannot disobey eternal law.

I believe that Heavenly Father and Mother were the Parents of Adam and Eve. That Heavenly Mother bore both the spirit and physical bodies of Adam and Eve.

I do not think that Heavenly Father and Mother can have IMMORTAL PHYSICAL CHILDREN. However, they can have AMORTAL PHYSICAL CHILDREN. In other words, they can have children which can live INDEFINITELY in their presence, as long as they do not sin. This was why Adam and Eve could walk and talk with God in the Garden. But when the decision was made by Eve, then Adam, to transgress, they could no longer remain in the Garden. Eternal law demands they leave God's presence.

Everything was in place in the Garden -- both the ability to STAY there forever, as well as the ability to LEAVE.

Let us remember -- God [[ HAD ]] to forbid Adam and Eve from partaking of the evil fruit. Remember -- God must honor eternal law. God could not make them leave the Garden or become mortal. Nor could He sanction transgression. The decision rested on the shoulders of Adam and Eve.

It could not have been done in any other way. Adam and Eve were forgiven of their transgression.

If you think about the Savior, the Atonement, the Plan of Salvation - as a whole - it all makes sense. Christ says HE is the Way, the Truth, the Life. He says that no man comes unto the Father, but through Him. In order for us to have this need, He mercifully gave unto us weakness. Such that we could see our fallen state and have a need for a Savior. Adam and Eve placed themselves in a condition where they needed a Savior. Thus, they placed themselves in a position to be sanctified and exalted - which never could have happened in the Garden.

The problem is not transgression or sin if we repent. And forgiveness has been provided for us through Christ.

tomk

[Moksha]

Hi everyone. I am just curious. But why would God want Adam and Eve to disobey Him just so that way they could have free agency? It makes no sense to me why God would want His children to disobey Him. Please help!

Not everything from way back when makes sense today. Of course you can grant freedom without first stirring up rebellion. However, that is not the story and to fully learn from it you must first suspend your disbelief and just go with the storyline. It has much symbolism that can enrich our lives.

:)

[winniemae]

Hi, I'm new to this site, but here's my take. Choice (agency) is eternal. We have all had it since....forever. One important choice was when we chose to leave our intelligence state to become a spirit child of our Father. We spent some amount of time progressing until we reached a point at which we were ready to act upon the choice made in the council in Heaven where we decided to sublimate our spirit body and intelligence by a human body. We needed to 'forget' the spiritual power we possessed so that we could learn how to achieve the proper balance between the two, which would take us to a greater level of spiritual and physical development. We made the spiritual choice, but the mortal form could not put it into force until we made the choice in the human sphere. Adam and Eve held the power of attorney for all of us and they were given two opposing opportunities in order to consciously open the door for all of us to progress. I think the word 'sin' sometimes carries connotations that are not always accurate in the eternal concepts of choice.

[Justice]

I'm having a hard time following your post, Justice. Could you rephrase?

I'm sorry. It's very difficult for me to explain. It's hard enough to understand, much less explain.

If you tell your kid to clean their room, and don't give them any particular time limit, at what point are they disobeying if they don't clean it? When can you punish them? Well, you can't reward them until they do it.

What if you tell your kid not to go outside, and don't give him a time limit? If he stays in the house for 5 years before he goes outside, did he break your commandment?

What time frame did God give Adam and Eve for multiplying and replenishing the earth?

When the sun went down? When the sun came up? 5 years? 5 million years?

Well, if you are going to live forever, what difference does time make? There is no time. The pattern of the earth going around the sun is just movement, no time elapses. The concept of eternity is very difficult to grasp. But, when God separates the terms "time and eternity" He does so because you cannot be in both at once.

Those who will die are in time.

Those who will not are not in time.

The point being that Adam and Eve could not fulfill the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth, and they couldn't as long as they were not subject to time or death, or did not obtain the knowledge of how to do it. But, by doing nothing, they were not in violation of the commandment. So, that wasn't enough to bring about the conditions of the fall. They needed a conflicting commandment, related to the first, that they had to go through in order to fulfill the first commandment. Otherwise they had no way to fulfill the first commandment.

I'm sorry if it's not making sense, it's the best I can do right now, but I'll keep pondering on a way to explain my thought. Maybe someone understands me and can do better.

[JohnnyRudick]

I'm sorry. It's very difficult for me to explain. It's hard enough to understand, much less explain.

If you tell your kid to clean their room, and don't give them any particular time limit, at what point are they disobeying if they don't clean it? When can you punish them? Well, you can't reward them until they do it.

What if you tell your kid not to go outside, and don't give him a time limit? If he stays in the house for 5 years before he goes outside, did he break your commandment?

What time frame did God give Adam and Eve for multiplying and replenishing the earth?

When the sun went down? When the sun came up? 5 years? 5 million years?

Well, if you are going to live forever, what difference does time make? There is no time. The pattern of the earth going around the sun is just movement, no time elapses. The concept of eternity is very difficult to grasp. But, when God separates the terms "time and eternity" He does so because you cannot be in both at once.

Those who will die are in time.

Those who will not are not in time.

The point being that Adam and Eve could not fulfill the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth, and they couldn't as long as they were not subject to time or death, or did not obtain the knowledge of how to do it. But, by doing nothing, they were not in violation of the commandment. So, that wasn't enough to bring about the conditions of the fall. They needed a conflicting commandment, related to the first, that they had to go through in order to fulfill the first commandment. Otherwise they had no way to fulfill the first commandment.

I'm sorry if it's not making sense, it's the best I can do right now, but I'll keep pondering on a way to explain my thought. Maybe someone understands me and can do better.

All very well said.

I do agree that there is a difference between Time and Eternity.

But it does not necessarily follow that in Eternity there is no time.

Just time without end.

Bro. Rudick

[MormonGirl02]

I guess what I am so confused about is why would it be God's plan for Adam and Eve to disobey Him? That makes little sense to me.

[MormonGirl02]

God needed man to be in a state where they had to make decisions for themselves, be out of the presence of God, and be tempted. This could not happen as long as they were in the Garden. So God, needed them to fall in order for preocreation, and for the whole plan of salvation to take place (if there was no sin, there would be no need for Jesus. If they could not precreate, then millions would be 'stuck' in the pre-mortal life not progressing). So why didn't God just create them in the state that they need to be in? According to Orson Pratt (IIRC), God could not make anything imperfect, so He had to have a plan that would create humans pefectly, but still end up in a fallen state. Hence the contradictorary commandments to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and to multiply and replenish the earth.

Hmmm, thanks. I think I understand now. :)

[Guest tomk]

I guess what I am so confused about is why would it be God's plan for Adam and Eve to disobey Him? That makes little sense to me.

How we perceive things makes all the difference in our interpretation.

I think what you are in need of is a paradigm shift, of sorts.

Your question seems to suggest that there is something wrong with what God did.

But that is not possible. God does nothing wrong and makes no mistakes.

If you accept that as true, then God's plan was NOT contradictory or ill-thought-out. Do you see how that must be true?

So if God's plan was not contradictory or ill-thought-out -- then the task becomes one of seeking to understand why. Why was God's plan NOT contradictory or ill-thought-out?

Moses 3: 17

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Perhaps this verse may be made more clear by pulling out this part:

nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it

If we do this, the verse reads like this:

Moses 3: 17

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God was not cautioning against PHYSICAL DEATH -- but against SPIRITUAL DEATH.

God HAD to forbid Adam and Eve doing something that would remove them from His presence. He had to WARN them of the consequences. This is God being a perfect God. Leaving the presence of God is necessary, but also contrary to eternal law -- for it is the presence of God which represents a fullness of joy. Anything that detracts from that is forbidden (technically) even though it is also necessary for our growth.

I wish I knew how to explain it better.

Imagine you had a child who just graduated from High School. That child is about to go to college. That child is about to leave the comfort of home and the safety of your presence (for the purposes of this analogy). You know they need to go, but you still must forbid them to do something that potentially places them in jeopardy. Ultimately, they leave:

nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it

"Go to college if you must, but remember you will be required to leave my presence in order to do so. You must leave the comforts and relative innocence of home to venture out into that cold cruel world. I forbid you to go, but you can choose for yourself."

It is a very tender thing ... a loving thing ... that God did. It had to be their choice - and yet - He could not just let it happen without warning them.

I hope this helps. It is clear in my mind and heart -- but words are only shadows of what only God can reveal.

Tom

[Justice]

Yes, Bro. Rudick, all time and no time, to me, are synonomous terms. Call me crazy, but that's what I've decided for me, and it helps me understand it better.

We measure time by watching the earth go around the sun. Well, that's not a constant, nor is it a permanent thing. What happens when the earth "passes away?" Does time go away? We recognize the passing of time by our birthdays and we believe we are growing older, because we are moving closer to our death. What happens when there is no death? What will we measure our birthdays by?

Well, I think we will measure them by "eternal rounds" which is very hard to put a finger on what they are.

So, when I say there will be no time, I mean there will not be a desire or need to measure it. And, that helps be understand all time better.

[Justice]

I don't look at it like God "wanted" Eve to disobey her. I like to think He wanted her to exercise her agency while having faith in Him to fulfill His plan.

He created the earth, and prepared a place where Adam and Eve could be redeemed, and as such exalted, from their choice. If God did not give them their agency in this matter then they were not able to choose Him. So, He wanted them to choose Him and exaltation, it just so happened they had to eat the fruit to gain the knowledge (of death) first.

What makes it hard to understand is that Adam and Eve did not fully comprehend the consequences of sin. If they did not fully understand it's consequences, namely death, then there was no way for them to have complete joy.

Edited March 14, 2009 by Justice

[Just_A_Guy]

Thanks, Justice; I think I see where you were going.

What do you think about the possibility that, had Adam and Eve done nothing, the Father might have returned to them later and instructed them to go ahead and partake of the fruit?

[PastorBob]

CHAPTER THIRTY-TWO

On Sin and the Shedding

Of the Fig-Leaf Aprons

MIRDAD: You have been told of sin, and you would know how Man became a sinner.

And you declare – and not without a merit – that if Man, the image and the likeness of God, be a sinner, then God Himself must be the source of Sin. Therein is a snare for the unsuspecting; and I would not have you, my companions, ensnared. Therefore would I remove this snare from your path that you may remove it from the paths of men.

There is no sin in God, unless it be sin for the Sun to give of his light to a candle. Nor is there sin in Man, unless it be sin for a candle to burn itself away in the Sun and thus be joined unto the Sun.

But there is sin in the candle that would not forth its light, and when a match is applied to its wick, it curses the match and the hand that applied it. There is sin in the candle that is ashamed of burning in the Sun; therefore would screen itself away from the Sun. Man did not disobeying the Law; rather by covering his ignorance of the Law.

Aye, there is sin in the fig-leaf apron.

Have you not read the story of the fall of Man, so frugal and naïve of word, but so sublime and so subtle of meaning? Have you not read how Man, when fresh from the bosom of God, was like an infant God – passive, inert, uncreative? For though endowed with all the attributes of godhood yet, like all infants, was he incapable of knowing, much less of exercising, his infinite capacities and talents.

Like a lonely seed encased in a beauteous vial was Man in the garden of Eden. A seed in a vial will remain a seed, and never will the marvels sealed up within its skin be stirred to life and light save it be hid in a soil congenial to its nature, and the skin thereof be broken.

But Man had no soil of his nature to plant himself therein and to sprout forth.

His was a face nowhere reflected in a kindred face. His was a human ear which heard no human voice. His was a human voice which echoed back from no human throat. His was a heart which beat a lonely unison.

Alone – so utterly alone – was Man amid a world well paired and launched upon its course. He was a stranger to himself; he had no labor of his own and no set course to follow. Eden to him was what a comfortable crib is to a babe – a state of passive bliss; a well-appointed incubator.

The tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, and the tree of Life were both within his reach; yet he would stretch no hand to pluck and taste of their fruit; for his taste and his will, his thoughts and his desires, and even his very life were all wrapped up within him and awaiting to be slowly unwrapped. He, by himself, could not do the unwrapping. Therefore was he made to yield out of himself a helpmeet for himself – a hand that would help him unwind his many wrappings.

Where else could his help be got save from his own being so rich with help because so potent with divinity? And that is most significant.

Not a new dust and breath is Eve; but the very dust and breath of Adam – a bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh. Not another creature appears on the scene; but the self-same single Adam is made a twain – a He-Adam and a She-Adam.

Thus the solitary, unmirrored face acquires a companion and a mirror; and the name unechoed in any human voice begins to reverberate in sweet refrains up and down the alleys of Eden; and the heart whose lonely beats were muffled in a lonely breast begins to feel its pulse and to hear its beats in a companion heart within a companion breast.

Thus sparkless steel encounters the flint which brings forth its sparks in abundance. Thus the unlit candle is set a-light from both ends.

One is the candle, one is the wick, and one is the light, though issuing from seemingly opposite ends. And thus the seed in the vial finds the soil where it can germinate and unfold its mysteries.

So does Unity unconscious of itself beget Duality, that through the friction and opposition of Duality it may be made to understand its unity. It that also is Man the faithful image of and the likeness of his God. For God – the Primal Consciousness – projects of Himself the Word; and both Word and Consciousness are unified in Holy Understanding.

Not a punishment is Duality, but a process inherent in the nature of Unity and necessary for the unfolding of its divinity. How childish to think otherwise! How childish to believe that so stupendous a process can be made to run its course in three-score years and ten, or even in three-score millions of years!

Is it so small a matter to become a god?

Is God so cruel and miserly a taskmaster that, with all eternity to give away, He should allot Man no more than so brief a span as seventy years in which to unify himself and regain his Eden fully aware of his godhood and his unity with God?

Long is the course of Duality; and foolish are they who would measure it with calendars. Eternity counts not the revolutions of the stars.

When Adam the passive, the inert, the uncreative was made dual he forthwith became active, full of motion and able to create a procreate himself.

What was the first act of Adam made dual? It was to eat of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil and thus to make his whole world as dual as himself. No longer were things as they were – innocent and indifferent. But they became either good or bad, useful or harmful, pleasant or unpleasant; they became to opposing camps, whereas before they were one.

And the serpent that beguiled Eve to taste of Good and Evil, was he not the deeper voice of active, yet inexperienced, Duality urging itself to act and experience?

That Eve was the first to hear that voice and obey it is no wonder at all. For Eve was the whetstone, as it were; the instrument designed to bring out the powers latent in her mate.

Have you not often stopped to visualize the first Woman in this first human story stealing her way among the trees of Eden, her nerves on edge, her heart a-flutter like a bird in a cage, her eyes searching everywhere for possible detection, her mouth watering as her trembling hand reached out for the tempting fruit? Have you not held your breath as she plucked the fruit and sank her teeth into its tender meat to taste a momentary sweetness which was to turn into everlasting bitterness for herself and all her progeny?

Have you not wished with all your hearts that God would forestall Eve’s insane audacity by appearing to her just as she was about to commit her reckless deed, and not afterward as He does in the story? And having committed her deed, have you not wished that Adam would possess the wisdom and the courage to abstain from being her accomplice?

Yet neither did God intervene, nor Adam abstain. For God would not have His likeness unlike Him. It was His will and plan that Man should walk the long way of Duality in order to unfold his own will and plan and unify himself by Understanding. As to Adam he could not, even if he wished, refrain from partaking of the fruit tendered him by his wife. It was incumbent on him to eat of it simply because his wife had eaten of it, for the two were one flesh, and each was accountable for the other’s acts.

Was God indignant and wroth because Man ate of the fruit of Good and Evil? God forbid. For He knew that Man could not but eat, and He wished him to eat; but He wished him also to know beforehand the consequence of eating and to have the stamina to face that consequence. And Man had the stamina. And Man did eat. And Man faced the consequence.

And the consequence was Death. For Man in becoming actively dual through the will of God had forthwith died to passive unity. Therefore is Death no penalty, but a phase of life inherent in Duality. For the nature of Duality is to make all things dual and to beget for everything a shadow. So Adam begot his shadow in Eve; and both begot for their life a shadow called Death. But Adam and Eve, though shadowed by Death, continue to have shadowless life in the life of God.

A constant friction is Duality; and the friction gives the illusion of two opposing sides bent upon self-extermination. In truth the seeming opposites are self-completing, self-fulfilling and working hand in hand to one and the same end – the perfect peace, and unity, and balance of Holy Understanding. But the illusion is rooted in the senses, and it persists so long as the senses persist.

Therefore did Adam answer God when He called him after his eyes were opened, ‘I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.’ Also, ‘The woman thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.’

No other was Eve but Adam’s very bone and very flesh. Yet consider this new-born I of Adam which, after its eyes were opened, began to see itself as something different, apart, and independent of Eve, of God and all of God’s creation.

An illusion was this I. An illusion of the newly opened eye was this personality detached from God. It had not substance, nor reality. It was born that through its death Man might come to know his real self which is the self of God. It shall vanish away when the outer eye is darkened and the inner eye is illumined. And though it baffled Adam, yet did it strongly intrigue his mind and lure his imagination. To have a self which one can call entirely one’s own – that is indeed too flattering and too tempting to Man who has no consciousness of any self.

And Adam was tempted and flattered by his illusionary self. And thought he was ashamed of it because too unreal, or too naked, yet would he not part therewith; instead he clung to it with all his heart and all his new-born ingenuity. And he sewed fig leaves together and made him an apron wherewith to cover up his naked personality and keep it to himself away from the all-penetrating eye of God.

So Eden, the state of blissful innocence, the unity unconscious of itself, fell away from the dual fig-leaf aproned Man; and swords of flame were put between him and the Tree of Life.

Man walked out of Eden through the twin gate of Good and Evil; he shall walk in through the single gate of Understanding. He made his exit with his back to the Tree of Life; he shall re-enter with his face to that tree. He set out on his long and trying journey ashamed of his nakedness and careful to hide his shame; he shall reach his journey’s end with his purity unaproned, and with his heart proud of his nudity.

But that shall not come to pass until Man by Sin be delivered from Sin. For Sin shall prove its own undoing. And where is Sin but in the fig-leaf apron?

Aye, nothing else is Sin but the barrier that Man set up between himself and God – between his transient self and his abiding Self. At first a handful of fig leaves, that barrier has come to be a mighty bulwark. For ever since he shed away the innocence of Eden Man has been very hard at work amassing more and more fig leaves and sewing aprons upon aprons.

The slothful are content to go on patching up the rents in their aprons with shreds discarded by their more industrious neighbors. And every patch in the garment of Sin is sin, for it tends to perpetuate that shame which was Man’s first and very poignant feeling upon his detachment from God.

Is Man doing aught to overcome his shame? Alas! All his labours are shame heaped upon shame, and aprons upon aprons.

What are Man’s arts and learnings but fig leaves?

His empires, nations, racial segregations and religions on the war path, are they not cults of fig-leaf worship?

His codes of right and wrong, of honour and dishonour, of justice and injustice; his countless social creeds and conventions – are they not fig-leaf aprons?

His valuing the invaluable, and measuring the immeasurable, and standardizing that which is beyond any standard – is not all that patching the overpatched loin-cloth?

His gluttony of pleasures that are rife with pain; his greed for riches that empoverish; his thirst for mastery which subjugates, and lust for grandeur that belittles – are not all these so many figleaf aprons?

In his pathetic rush to cover up his nakedness Man has put on too many aprons which in the course of years have stuck so tightly to his skin that he no longer distinguishes between them and his skin. And Man gasps for breath; and Man appeals for relief from his many skins. Yet, in his delirium, Man would do all things to be relieved of his burden except the only thing that can in truth relieve him of his burden, and that is to throw off that burden. He would be rid of his extra skins while clinging to them with all his might. He would be denuded, and yet remain fully dressed.

The time of denuding is at hand. And I am come to help you shed away your extra skins – your fig-leaf aprons – that you may help all yearners in the world to shed away theirs, too. I only point the way; but each shall do his shedding by himself, however painful be the undertaking.

Wait not on any miracle to save you from yourself, nor be afraid of pain; for naked Understanding shall turn your pain into an everlasting ecstasy of joy.

Should you then face yourselves in the nakedness of Understanding, and should God call to you and ask: “Where are you?”, you would not feel ashamed; nor would you be afraid; nor would you hide away from God. But rather would you stand unshaken, unbound, and divinely serene, and answer back to God”

‘Behold us, God – our soul, our being, our only self. In shame and fear and pain have we walked the long, and rough, and tortuous path of Good and Evil which you have appointed us at the dawn of Time. The Great Nostalgia urged our feet, and Faith sustained our hearts, and now has Understanding lifted our burdens, bound up our wounds, and brought us back into your holy presence naked of Good and Evil, Life and Death; naked of all illusions of Duality; naked of every self except your all-embracing Self. With no fig leaves to hide our nakedness we stand before you unashamed, illumined, unafraid. Behold, we are unified. Behold, we have overcome.’

And God shall embrace you with infinite Love, and straightway shall lead you unto his Tree of Life.

So taught I Noah.

So I teach you.

Naronda: This also was said by the Master around the brazier.

[JohnnyRudick]

Yes, Bro. Rudick, all time and no time, to me, are synonomous terms. Call me crazy, but that's what I've decided for me, and it helps me understand it better.

We measure time by watching the earth go around the sun. Well, that's not a constant, nor is it a permanent thing. What happens when the earth "passes away?" Does time go away? We recognize the passing of time by our birthdays and we believe we are growing older, because we are moving closer to our death. What happens when there is no death? What will we measure our birthdays by?

Well, I think we will measure them by "eternal rounds" which is very hard to put a finger on what they are.

So, when I say there will be no time, I mean there will not be a desire or need to measure it. And, that helps be understand all time better.

Yes, and to take this even a little bit closer to home;

We measure time by the time it takes for the eye to "twinkle":D

In eternity will we not have eyes to twinkle:eek:

Yes, from the time it takes for me to move the finger of my right hand. from my left. to my right, there will be "time".:)

Even if it takes a trillion twinkles:p

Bro. Rudick

Bro. Ru

[JohnnyRudick]

Moses 3: 17

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Perhaps this verse may be made more clear by pulling out this part:

nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it

If we do this, the verse reads like this:

Moses 3: 17

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God was not cautioning against PHYSICAL DEATH -- but against SPIRITUAL DEATH.

But, Eve did die.

At least for a time:)

God was right in two ways.

Something in what ever it was she ate, I believe it was of the grape tree, that made a change in her body that produced "blood" in her system and made her mortal subject to death.

She "shall surly die".

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

I don't look at it like God "wanted" Eve to disobey her. I like to think He wanted her to exercise her agency while having faith in Him to fulfill His plan.

He created the earth, and prepared a place where Adam and Eve could be redeemed, and as such exalted, from their choice. If God did not give them their agency in this matter then they were not able to choose Him. So, He wanted them to choose Him and exaltation, it just so happened they had to eat the fruit to gain the knowledge (of death) first.

What makes it hard to understand is that Adam and Eve did not fully comprehend the consequences of sin. If they did not fully understand it's consequences, namely death, then there was no way for them to have complete joy.

Not sure how much this applies here but I hope to use this idea to jump to this.

I put a 20.00 bill on the shelf with some change from my pocket and my oldest and youngest sons who happen to see me do it;

Now I don't say to them.

"Don't partake of this for in the day that thou doist thou shalt surly die:D

I just go outside and get in the car and drive away.

I come back and it is still there,

I go to bed that night and it is still there.

They know that that money is still dad's and it has mot yet been released to anyone's use (yet) but his.

Most everything else in the house is there for their use but that money.

They instinctively know that from earlier instruction that that is true.

In time I go by there and the money is gone, I ask of my children, "who took the money that was on the shelf"?. . .

Another learning opportunity.

For me and for them:p

If after enough time had passed I would have divided it up between them, but now?

They got to pay me back.

Bro. Rudick

Edited March 14, 2009 by JohnnyRudick
After thought;-)