Will there be polyandry in heaven? (1 woman, x husbands where x > 1)

[Vort]

As for women and the priesthood, they actually DO hold the priesthood when they enter with their husbands into the new and everlasting order of the priesthood. Together they receive the Patriarchal Order of the Melchizedek Priesthood.

rameumptom, I would love it if you could provide a citation for President Packer's comments. I've long held that women hold the priesthood and would like to add this to my arsenal of evidence.

MoE's comment is a perfect example of someone who decides what he wants to believe, then goes searching for evidence of his pet doctrine.

Rameumptom has misinterpreted both the sealing ordinance and President Packer's teachings. Women do not "hold the Priesthood". They are an indispensible part of the highest order of the Priesthood, but they do not hold the Priesthood. All of the MoEs in the world stamping their feet and insisting that women actually do hold the Priesthood won't change the fact.

God is shamelessly politically incorrect.

[Hemidakota]

Holy Cow there's so much good stuf in this thread!

BUt about the more women/men than men/women in heaven, I'll throw a monkey wrench in your gears. We must also consider all the other planets in the universe. Surely the council in heaven wasn;t only for "earthlings" but for the inhabitants of every planet in God's universe. THere are just so many things we don't know that there is no way to pin down a specific reason for most things. We just have to trust in God.

Also I think the idea of adoption has merit. We know that God did not create us. We existed as intelligences before becoming God's spirit children. So got did not create us but adopted us

Also if we existed as an entity before becoming Spirit children. Our "birth" as spirit children somehow involves:

1. The formation of our Spirit Body

2. The "entrance" of us as intelligence into the Spirit Body.

So to know if there is any gestation we would need to know how a spirit body is formed. Is it formed how a physical body is formed? Or does Heavenly Father and Mother shape it out of spirit matter? Or do they activate the "Spirit Body-o-Matic"?

Personally I don't think how many wives one has determines how fast a person can create infinite number of spirit children. Remember we are dealing with eternity. In eternity there is no time. There is no faster or sooner. Our application of time to eternity is irrelevant because the nature of eternity is one without time.

You mean GOD's domain and not the universe? Big place and there is more than one GOD.

To answer the intelligence process of selection, I would go back the Book of Genesis and look at the order of creation to understand how intelligence 'can' progress.

[MarginOfError]

If God chooses to allow polyandry, who are we to argue it. As I mentioned before, Brigham Young admitted it under certain needs.

As for women and the priesthood, they actually DO hold the priesthood when they enter with their husbands into the new and everlasting order of the priesthood. Together they receive the Patriarchal Order of the Melchizedek Priesthood.

Pres Packer explained it like this: the man has two keys. The first key opens up a vault door. Within the vault is a chest. The chest requires two keys. The man's second key fits one of the locks, while the woman holds the other key. Only together, in sharing the Patriarchal Priesthood, can any of us obtain all the blessings of heaven.

Within this priesthood, we have similar and different roles. Each of us are similar in seeking God through prayer, repentance, faith, and serving others. Both are different in some of the forms of service performed.

rameumptom, I would love it if you could provide a citation for President Packer's comments. I've long held that women hold the priesthood and would like to add this to my arsenal of evidence.

MoE's comment is a perfect example of someone who decides what he wants to believe, then goes searching for evidence of his pet doctrine.

Rameumptom has misinterpreted both the sealing ordinance and President Packer's teachings. Women do not "hold the Priesthood". They are an indispensible part of the highest order of the Priesthood, but they do not hold the Priesthood. All of the MoEs in the world stamping their feet and insisting that women actually do hold the Priesthood won't change the fact.

God is shamelessly politically incorrect.

I recommend that you read my post here for further clarification (the entire thread is pretty good, actually). There is quite a body of evidence that women hold the priesthood, although I would add that holding the priesthood is very different from holding priesthood office. Admittedly, my research in this area is incomplete, but I am continually studying and seeking further understanding on this topic.

I can assure you, however, that this was not a case of, "I want women to hold the priesthood so I'll find everything that will let me say it." This was more of a, "I was reading something one day and it made me think, 'did that just say that women hold the priesthood?' so I did more research and this was what I found."

[Just_A_Guy]

Somehow, the idea of Elder Packer's words being used to justify the idea of women holding the priesthood just makes me giggle.

(Not that I necessarily disagree with MOE. I just find the source highly amusing--Elder Packer is usually Public Enemy Number One for the types of people who tend to be most vocal about women and the priesthood.)

[foreverafter]

"The man that honors his Priesthood & the woman that honors her Priesthood, will receive an everlasting hinheritance in the kingdom of God." BY, JD 17:119-120.

Brigham Young talked about a woman's priesthood & it has been mentioned at least twice in recent Gen. Conferences that women are born with an equal power & authority as men's priesthood, whether you call it priesthood or not, though BY seemed to call it that for women. In Conf. they went on to say that while women receive this power before birth men must receive this power here on earth if they are righteous. Women & men use this power for similar & also different purposes to be Saviors of Men here on earth. (For reference see Sheri Dew's talk, (Mathew Cowley quote) CR Oct. 2001)

The Priesthood is God's power. God does all his mighty works by the power of Love, which is the Priesthood, that is why without Charity you are nothing & have no power. Love is the greatest power in the Universe & it is the Priesthood. When one is ordained to the Priesthood, they are called to serve in Love, as God would if he were here, to save & exalt his children. Women use this power of Love to save & exalt her husband & children & confer life (which is probably an ordinance) onto her children & raise them in righteousness & to help her husband/s make it back. Men use this power to confer other earthly ordinances to further help save God's children & with their wives help to save & exalt their children.

Women come to earth having already been ordained with this power of Love, in their calling to lay down their lives for their children in giving them life & raising them. Men are called to love, protect & provide for women so she can do this high calling. If men do not love their wife or they commit abuse, adultery or abandonment in any form, they lose their priesthood power, for they prove they have no love. Unconditional True Love for your spouse is the proof of righteousness & possession of the Priesthood or God's power, whether your a man or a woman.

Edited March 20, 2009 by foreverafter

[Hemidakota]

I recommend that you read my post here for further clarification (the entire thread is pretty good, actually). There is quite a body of evidence that women hold the priesthood, although I would add that holding the priesthood is very different from holding priesthood office. Admittedly, my research in this area is incomplete, but I am continually studying and seeking further understanding on this topic.

I can assure you, however, that this was not a case of, "I want women to hold the priesthood so I'll find everything that will let me say it." This was more of a, "I was reading something one day and it made me think, 'did that just say that women hold the priesthood?' so I did more research and this was what I found."

PRIEST and PRIESTESS....

[Hemidakota]

"The man that honors his Priesthood & the woman that honors her Priesthood, will receive an everlasting hinheritance in the kingdom of God." BY, JD 17:119-120.

Brigham Young talked about a woman's priesthood & it has been mentioned at least twice in recent Gen. Conferences that women are born with an equal power & authority as men's priesthood, whether you call it priesthood or not, though BY seemed to call it that for women. In Conf. they went on to say that while women receive this power before birth men must receive this power here on earth if they are righteous. Women & men use this power for similar & also different purposes to be Saviors of Men here on earth. (For reference see Sheri Dew's talk, (Mathew Cowley quote) CR Oct. 2001)

The Priesthood is God's power. God does all his mighty works by the power of Love, which is the Priesthood, that is why without Charity you are nothing & have no power. Love is the greatest power in the Universe & it is the Priesthood. When one is ordained to the Priesthood, they are called to serve in Love, as God would if he were here, to save & exalt his children. Women use this power of Love to save & exalt her husband & children & confer life (which is probably an ordinance) onto her children & raise them in righteousness & to help her husband/s make it back. Men use this power to confer other earthly ordinances to further help save God's children & with their wives help to save & exalt their children.

Women come to earth having already been ordained with this power of Love, in their calling to lay down their lives for their children in giving them life & raising them. Men are called to love, protect & provide for women so she can do this high calling. If men do not love their wife or they commit abuse, adultery or abandonment in any form, they lose their priesthood power, for they prove they have no love. Unconditional True Love for your spouse is the proof of righteousness & possession of the Priesthood.

Tuner Rodney did this already with thorough research into the JD statement that can be found in the book called "LDS Doctrine", chapter that primarily deals with "Woman and the Priesthood". It is quite lengthy to post here but worthy reading for those who do not understand the fundamentals of the Celestial order of the priesthood.

GOD's power is HIS honor HE receives from the collective intelligences that surrounds HIM. The priesthood is the authoritarian key to exercise this power

[foreverafter]

GOD's power is HIS honor HE receives from the collective intelligences that surrounds HIM. The priesthood is the authoritarian key to exercise this power

God still has power even if he is not honored. If all of his children were to go to outer darkness, he would still be a God & have his power to create, even if no one ever listened to him. We still have power even if our spouse or children do not honor us, we can still save them. We can love our enemies & they can not even care that we love them or take advantage of our love, but our love for them still gives us power over them, even to help save them, whether they honor us or not. Christ loved everyone, & his love saves everyone from physical death, even those who don't honor him. Love is a force that doesn't have to be returned to be enjoyed & to retain it's power.

[Hemidakota]

Sorry, I have to disagree here again. GOD can only create primarily due through this honor principle of those who subject themselves to HIM. It is one of the principles of being GOD upon which many need to learn and we could see how powerful this was when Lucifer presented his case before the FATHER in the Grand Council asking for HIS honor. Or when Abraham witnessed the GODs creating and waiting for the creation to obey or honor THEM in doing so. If the intelligences do not honor HIM, HE would not be able to create. True, it is the love that radiant’s from GOD and the agency in following HIM. But the power is not power without honor.

When you talk about physical death and being saved, who is this justice that is being served by the atonement?

[JohnnyRudick]

Yes, "woman for the man" just like Jesus was sent to Earth "for" us. Because Jesus was sent "for" us, does that mean Jesus is under us? No! quite the opposite in fact. There is the person who needs help, and the one who is able to give the help. Men are the ones who need a helper - not women. We don't need a helper, you do.

sorry - that was a bit feminist of me. We both need one another. Equally yoked. I mean if there was no one for us to help out - what would we do with ourself? what purpose would there be to live? The opportunity to serve is what gives everyone purpose in life.

Yes, I see women as the "power" of the priesthood.

I agree.

I quoted this one too - yes, Eve was named "mother" long before she was prego = so... prego must not be what makes us "mothers". Again, prego is fallen means of having children. Adoption is most likely the non-fallen means. Poly is not about men ruling women. It is symbolic of adoption, Sarah was barren (HM refuses to have children the prego way - which takes away agency) so the handmaid comes into play to introduce the idea of parenthood etc. etc. it is a beautiful story... Eve cannot have children until after she eats the fruit - prego is a transgression, we have to get the experience some how, not through our perfect Parents though - they would cease to be perfect if they forced themselves on us like that... experience has to come before choice or it is not a well-informed choice, not a choice at all. so "p"arents then choose (agency) "P"arents. what is wrong with that?

This is beautiful too - Eve not created the "Prego" way. She gets to choose who her parents are. Was Adam formed from the dust? or created the Prego way? Interesting thing - they were both perfect, and it seems that their creation process did not involve what we know today as "begotten". They were not begotten in any event, only Jesus was "begotten".

I stand by you on most of what you have written here.

Adam needed help, we do also.

We have to take in the Foreknowing Power of the Father in reference to the Helpmate being called, womb-man or "Woman"

He knew that within her were every child of God that would be born on this earth.

She was literally the "Mother of all living."

But as you say, she had not yet "dropped her first calf".

Well, you did not say "that".

That is not an insult please believe me.:)

(more of a reference to Cain then to Eve, come to think of it)

Bro. Rudick

[talisyn]

Brigham Young authorized at least one polyandrous marriage. A man was unable to have children, and so Brigham Young authorized his wife to be married to another man for time. They had children, who became the spiritual children of the first man (similar to Levirate marriages in the Bible). Brigham Young was very practical in these things, and I would not be surprised if God isn't as practical. If there were a reason for polyandry in the heavens, God would implement it.

Wow! When did this happen?

[deseretgov]

You mean GOD's domain and not the universe? Big place and there is more than one GOD.

So God's domain is not the whole universe? So if I traveled to another planet I would encounter a different God? Maybe I'm mis-reading your post.

To answer the intelligence process of selection, I would go back the Book of Genesis and look at the order of creation to understand how intelligence 'can' progress.

Hmmm. Interesting idea.

[StallionMcBeastly]

Only if you are only considering the way we humans in this mortal realm procreate, who knows if procreation has such limitations in the world to come.

How do women perform their ordinances in the temple or do those not require the priesthood to perform? I'm trying not to say too much about the temple, but I think we are aware that on the woman's side, they must perform certain ordinances that men do not.

We do not know how procreation exists on the other time, but we know we have a Heavenly Mother and Father, and we were created in God's image. I imagine it's similar.

I've always had the doctrinal understanding that God has many wives, not the other way around.

I haven't received my endowments, so I can't give an educated answer. But, what I do know is that God gives man the Priesthood for the benefit of all. The Apostles gave Joseph Smith and other men the Priesthood - if women were intended to hold it as well they would have been given it.

Good discussion:)

[JohnnyRudick]

So God's domain is not the whole universe? So if I traveled to another planet I would encounter a different God? Maybe I'm mis-reading your post.

The Universe.

Seems so Universal don't ya think?

Not really so.

We look at it with our earthly perspective and we think "All that was created/organized."

Organized where?

Here in our universe.

Right.

Our universe.

Thank you for shopping at WalMart:D

Bro. Rudick

[talisyn]

I stand by you on most of what you have written here.

Adam needed help, we do also.

We have to take in the Foreknowing Power of the Father in reference to the Helpmate being called, womb-man or "Woman"

He knew that within her were every child of God that would be born on this earth.

She was literally the "Mother of all living."

But as you say, she had not yet "dropped her first calf".

Well, you did not say "that".

That is not an insult please believe me.:)

(more of a reference to Cain then to Eve, come to think of it)

Bro. Rudick

You're calling your gggggggggggg(couple hundred generations later)ggrandmother a heifer? You're in soooooo much trouble when you see her again

[JohnnyRudick]

You're calling your gggggggggggg(couple hundred generations later)ggrandmother a heifer? You're in soooooo much trouble when you see her again

I Know

I knew I was in trouble once I got my mouth (fingers) goin' but like so many times I was committed (or should be:p) and kept right on goin with it.

No, unfortunately she happened to drop a calf that time but I doubt it had anything to do with her.

Some claim she had relations with the serpent but I do not believe that.

Cain was just a bad guy no fault of hers.

Bro. Rudick

Oh, Cain a calf?

Well, some studies I did a long time ago led me to some ideas where calf worship of early cultures, bits and pieces leading up to even today, trace back to the veneration of Cain symbolized as a calf.

Just was in the back of my mind when I shot that out.

It happens ever once in a while:lol:

Bro. Rudick, again:)

[talisyn]

I was joking, you know that right? lol for an instance there I pictured you in front of Eve explaining what you posted, and I feared for your ears

[JohnnyRudick]

I was joking, you know that right? lol for an instance there I pictured you in front of Eve explaining what you posted, and I feared for your ears

Yup, For Sure:eek:

I can hear Her already:D

With me a lot of the times it is, open mouth, insert foot.

Open mouth to try to explain, insert other foot:p

Bro. Rudick

[rameumptom]

rameumptom, I would love it if you could provide a citation for President Packer's comments. I've long held that women hold the priesthood and would like to add this to my arsenal of evidence.

MoE,

Nov 1993 Ensign, Boyd K. Packer, "For Time and All Eternity"

And ignore Vort. He obviously doesn't know the gospel as well as he knows gang signs.

[rameumptom]

Sorry, I have to disagree here again. GOD can only create primarily due through this honor principle of those who subject themselves to HIM. It is one of the principles of being GOD upon which many need to learn and we could see how powerful this was when Lucifer presented his case before the FATHER in the Grand Council asking for HIS honor. Or when Abraham witnessed the GODs creating and waiting for the creation to obey or honor THEM in doing so. If the intelligences do not honor HIM, HE would not be able to create. True, it is the love that radiant’s from GOD and the agency in following HIM. But the power is not power without honor.

When you talk about physical death and being saved, who is this justice that is being served by the atonement?

Abraham 4 is a perfect example of this, as the Gods commanded and then waited to be obeyed by the elements.

[rameumptom]

Somehow, the idea of Elder Packer's words being used to justify the idea of women holding the priesthood just makes me giggle.

(Not that I necessarily disagree with MOE. I just find the source highly amusing--Elder Packer is usually Public Enemy Number One for the types of people who tend to be most vocal about women and the priesthood.)

As MoE stated, it is a difference between priesthood and the male priesthood office, which includes keys of presidency. Women are not ordained elders, for instance. However, in the temple they are ordained to be queens and priestesses - both require women hold priesthood together with their husbands (which is what Elder Packer was teaching).

[JohnnyRudick]

As MoE stated, it is a difference between priesthood and the male priesthood office, which includes keys of presidency. Women are not ordained elders, for instance. However, in the temple they are ordained to be queens and priestesses - both require women hold priesthood together with their husbands (which is what Elder Packer was teaching).

OK. I own the papers to my house.

My wife live here with me. (if I had one:(

She can use my keys to go in and to go out.

To let others in and to let others out.

She is Queen and Priestess in and about my house.

In effect it is Our house.

It is understood it is Her house.

We could even say that it says that it is Me and Spouse on the papers to the house but we may have a stipulation that I am the primary owner to the property,

But without me. . . .

Not sure if I used the right analogy here but we can get some idea where I am going with this.

Bro. Rudick

[Vort]

rameumptom, I would love it if you could provide a citation for President Packer's comments. I've long held that women hold the priesthood and would like to add this to my arsenal of evidence.

Nov 1993 Ensign, Boyd K. Packer, "For Time and All Eternity"

Those responsibilities of the priesthood, which have to do with the administration of the Church, of necessity function outside the home. By divine decree, they have been entrusted to men. It has been that way since the beginning, for the Lord revealed that “the order of this priesthood was confirmed to be handed down from father to son. … This order was instituted in the days of Adam.”...The priesthood is conferred only upon worthy men in order to conform to our Father’s plan of happiness.

Looks like Elder Packer made it clear that men, not women, hold the Priesthood. Perhaps you can point out in the article where he says differently.

And ignore Vort. He obviously doesn't know the gospel as well as he knows gang signs.

Ouch! Now you have my writhing within the iron grip of your logical reasoning!

Edited March 23, 2009 by Vort

[Vort]

As MoE stated, it is a difference between priesthood and the male priesthood office, which includes keys of presidency. Women are not ordained elders, for instance. However, in the temple they are ordained to be queens and priestesses - both require women hold priesthood together with their husbands (which is what Elder Packer was teaching).

Elder Packer never taught any such thing. As I already demonstrated, he taught the opposite: Men, and men only, hold the Priesthood. The fact that a woman is a part of a Priesthood order does not mean she "holds the Priesthood".

Hope you enjoy my gang signs.

Edited March 23, 2009 by Vort
The "false doctrine" thing was unnecessary.

[JohnnyRudick]

This is false doctrine, rameumptom. Elder Packer never taught any such thing. As I already demonstrated, he taught the opposite: Men, and men only, hold the Priesthood.

The fact that a woman is a part of a Priesthood order does not mean she "holds the Priesthood".

Hope you enjoy my gang signs.

Me too!

I tried to say this but you got to it a lot more directly.

I tried to put out a picture to soften the blow but I guess a more direct approach is plainer.:)

Bro. Rudcik