Remission of sins and other questions?

[AnthonyB]

LDS believe that with a few exception nearly every one gets to go to one of three heavens (or subdivisions of heaven) and there abide with at least 1 of the persons of God.

You also believe that baptism for remission of sins with correct priesthood authority is neccessary and that baptism must take place either by us here or by a proxy after our deeaths.

So non-LDS remain in a temporary state (that I have heard LDS call spirit prison), away from the presence of God until they have there proxy baptism performed?

So are you going to get around to baptising everyone by proxy either now or in the millenium?

If someone continues to refuse to accept the proxy baptism, are they sent to "outer darkness" eventually?

Now for a slightly trickier question, I'd agree that basptism of a believing repentant person remits their sins, but do LDS believe that is the only way to remit sin? If so, do you have a scripture (I happy to take non-NT scripture quotes) that expresses that point? I am not asking for a defence of baptism for the remission of sins or that it is the normal entry of a disciple into the church but that it is the only way for someone to have their sins remitted. Keeping in mind that Jesus remitted sins during his ministry merely on his say so and that 1 John 1:9 teaches that confession also remits sins (it uses the same word as Acts 2:38)

Thanks in advance for those that take the time to respond.

[Maxel]

LDS believe that with a few exception nearly every one gets to go to one of three heavens (or subdivisions of heaven) and there abide with at least 1 of the persons of God.

You also believe that baptism for remission of sins with correct priesthood authority is neccessary and that baptism must take place either by us here or by a proxy after our deeaths.

So non-LDS remain in a temporary state (that I have heard LDS call spirit prison), away from the presence of God until they have there proxy baptism performed?

So are you going to get around to baptising everyone by proxy either now or in the millenium?

If someone continues to refuse to accept the proxy baptism, are they sent to "outer darkness" eventually?

Yes, everyone needs to be baptized, either in the flesh or by proxy. To my understanding, one of the great projects of the Millennium will be the proxy baptism of every soul that has ever lived on the Earth who died without baptism.

Now for a slightly trickier question, I'd agree that basptism of a believing repentant person remits their sins, but do LDS believe that is the only way to remit sin? If so, do you have a scripture (I happy to take non-NT scripture quotes) that expresses that point? I am not asking for a defence of baptism for the remission of sins or that it is the normal entry of a disciple into the church but that it is the only way for someone to have their sins remitted. Keeping in mind that Jesus remitted sins during his ministry merely on his say so and that 1 John 1:9 teaches that confession also remits sins (it uses the same word as Acts 2:38)

Baptism isn't the only way to remit sins. However, it is required for entrance into God's kingdom- as Christ said, a man must be born of water and the spirit to enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5). However, it is not the only step that is required to remit sins: the remittance of sin also requires making use of the Atonement of Christ. Repentance is just as important.

[Just_A_Guy]

So non-LDS remain in a temporary state (that I have heard LDS call spirit prison), away from the presence of God until they have there proxy baptism performed?

My understanding is that they still may receive the ministrations of the Holy Spirit. But, yes; they are not in the presence of either God the Father or Jesus Christ.

So are you going to get around to baptising everyone by proxy either now or in the millenium?

That's the plan. :)

If someone continues to refuse to accept the proxy baptism, are they sent to "outer darkness" eventually?

Personally, I think so. At some point, refusing to accept the baptism would be tantamount to refusing to accept Jesus Christ. I don't know that this belief is universally held among Mormons, though.

Now for a slightly trickier question, I'd agree that basptism of a believing repentant person remits their sins, but do LDS believe that is the only way to remit sin? If so, do you have a scripture (I happy to take non-NT scripture quotes) that expresses that point?

Well, technically, it's the Atonement of Jesus Christ that remits sins--baptism (and, to a degree, confession/repentance) is just a symbol and a covenant of our acceptance of the Atonement's power in our own lives. But, as Maxel says--baptism is necessary; and John 3:5 covers it nicely.

Keeping in mind that Jesus remitted sins during his ministry merely on his say so and that 1 John 1:9 teaches that confession also remits sins (it uses the same word as Acts 2:38)

I don't think it's at all clear that Jesus' words as relayed the Gospels exempted His hearers from the need for baptism. Even if they did--for all we know, the individuals to whom you refer had already been baptized by John the Baptist.

As for 1 John 1:9, that particular epistle of John was directed to believers who (presumably) had already been baptized.

[tubaloth]

You also believe that baptism for remission of sins with correct priesthood authority is neccessary and that baptism must take place either by us here or by a proxy after our deaths.

Yes, or the third choice is neither (no baptism at all).

So non-LDS remain in a temporary state (that I have heard LDS call spirit prison), away from the presence of God until they have there proxy baptism performed?

For the most part yes. But that doesn’t mean that those that have accepted the Gospel and Jesus Christ are still waiting around in spirit prison. What I mean is, they might get to come over in the Paradise waiting room. (waiting for the baptism)

So are you going to get around to baptising everyone by proxy either now or in the millenium?

Its got to be done. Hopefully we can catch up at some point in time!

If someone continues to refuse to accept the proxy baptism, are they sent to "outer darkness" eventually?

This is where it can get confusing. More about Outer Darkness below.

I'd agree that basptism of a believing repentant person remits their sins

How does this process work to you? What makes this remit sin?

but do LDS believe that is the only way to remit sin?

This is tough question to fully answer. Mostly because I don’t know your background to LDS doctrine. But here we go.

1. We know because of the fall an eternal law was broken. Because of Sin we are separated from God. Only Christ can pay the sacrifice of an eternal law.

(Alma 34:9-11.)

9 For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; yea, all are hardened; yea, all are fallen and are lost, and must perish except it be through the atonement which it is expedient should be made.

10 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice.

11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.

So the only way for sins to be forgiven is through Christ.

2. Those that don’t follow the covenant (through Christ) are left on there own.

(Doctrine and Covenants 19:16-18.)

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

So, this makes sense. If you don’t want to do things through the Gospel, through Christ, then you are left to suffer yourself.

Those that do suffer are put into an “Outer Darkness”. There they suffer for there sins and then return to a kingdom of glory.

One last part I think plays into all of this is something about the different kingdoms of glory. Each Kingdom of Glory has its own laws.

(Doctrine and Covenants 88:21-24.)

21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.

22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.

24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.

So when you ask this question about remitting sins. I’m going to assume you mean sins that keep you from the Celestial Kingdom (the highest kingdom). The only way get into this kingdom is through Christ and the Atonement.

If you can’t keep that law, then you move to a lower kingdom. Those in the Terrestial Kingdom also are baptized and thus are forgiven of there sins.

Those in the Telestial Kingdom are those that couldn’t keep the higher laws, and thus pay for there own sins. But I have to assume that they only pay enough of the sins to allow them to gain Telestial Glory.

That probably was a longer answer then you wanted.

[AnthonyB]

Thank you for 3 great replies, it’ll take some time to get through them.

Maxel,

"Born of water and spirit" of John 3:5, my initial response to that verse is that "water" speaks of physical birth and "spirit" talks of second birth (ie being born again). Jesus is in that interpretation is emphasising the need to be born again. I can see how you might take it to mean baptism in water and spirit. I’ll think that one through.

Just_A_Guy,

Baptism without repentance and faith is just taking a bath. It is through the faith and repentance shown at baptism that we access the atoning blood of Jesus shed by Him on the cross (and at the garden for LDS folk!) I don’t believe baptismal regeneration, where baptism works in its self to do anything. It is rather a gift from our Lord to allow us a physical means of expressing the faith and repentance that is in our hearts and heads. We are physical as well as spiritual beings, and physical acts can have spiritual consequences, just as spiritual acts can have physical consequences. A similar example to baptism of a physical act having spiritual consequences is fasting, without the right spiritual intention it is just missing a meal. However Jesus made it clear that some spiritual acts require not just prayer but the involvement of our flesh in the action by fasting.

As for John 3:5 see my reply to Maxel.

1 John was indeed written to believers. However it promises that confession of sin will "remit/cleanse" from all unrighteousness, not just unrighteousness post baptism. I suppose I see baptism as effective because it is in part both a confession of sin and profession of faith in Christ. Baptism is not in a different class of actions to what 1 John 1:9 is talking about. It is the just the normal way or the first act of confession by Christians is done in the NT.

Tubaloth,

Hopefully the answers above will give you some idea of how I see baptism being effective. Although this is an LDS gospel board, so it isn’t the place for me to give a detailed defintions of my beleifs.

Going through your points….

• We know because of the fall an eternal law was broken. Because of Sin we are separated from God. Only Christ can pay the sacrifice of an eternal law.

Seems reasonable, although I’m not sure what distinction you mean by "eternal law"

I would say…There existed the law that if we ate we would die, we ate and therefore died. This death was both physical and spiritual. Physically we are subject to corruption and death, spiritually we are separated from God, the source of life. Only Christ could pay the sacrifice because he was not subject to the death that Adam and Eve bequeathed to their offspring.

So the only way for sins to be forgiven is through Christ.

2. Those that don’t follow the covenant (through Christ) are left on there own.

No real problem with the above. Except of course I think we draw vastly different conclusions about it.

So, this makes sense. If you don’t want to do things through the Gospel, through Christ, then you are left to suffer yourself.

Those that do suffer are put into an "Outer Darkness". There they suffer for there sins and then return to a kingdom of glory.

The being able "to return" is where I (as non-LDS) have a problem. Even if

God in his mercy and sovereignty decided to offer those who did not respond to the gospel in this life another chance to return after the judgement, I seriously doubt many would take him up. If your not willing to make any real response to the gospel now why do you think people will suddenly change. They’re just as likely to spiral down in anger and resentment against God and continue to spurn his loving overture there as they do here. Have you ever read CS Lewis’ "The Great Divorce"?

Your discussion about the three levels of heaven was very informative. It’ll take some digesting, I might return with some supplemental questions about that material.

Once again thx to all 3 of you for such informative responses.

[bytebear]

Baptism is not required to enter into Spirit Paradise, but a testimony of Jesus Christ is. Hense, the theif on the cross was promised by Jesus that he would be with him in Paradise, even though his baptism would not have been performed then.

Baptism opens the gate to the Celestial Kingdom, and to enter that kingdom, you must be baptised, either in life, or by proxy after death.

[mnn727]

Baptism opens the gate to the Celestial Kingdom, and to enter that kingdom, you must be baptised, either in life, or by proxy after death.

Agreed, baptism is not required to enter anything but the Celestial Kingdom. Having said that, we will be doing proxy baptisms for everyone as we don;t know who will be CK bound.

Does baptism remit sin? Thats not really a yes or no type of question -- no time now but I'll try to answer that in the next day or 2.

[tubaloth]

The being able "to return" is where I (as non-LDS) have a problem. Even if

God in his mercy and sovereignty decided to offer those who did not respond to the gospel in this life another chance to return after the judgement, I seriously doubt many would take him up. If your not willing to make any real response to the gospel now why do you think people will suddenly change. They’re just as likely to spiral down in anger and resentment against God and continue to spurn his loving overture there as they do here.

I think I might have lost you here.

There is law for the Celestial Kingdom. If we want to be with God and Christ then we need to prove that we can obey this law.

There is a Law for the Telestial and Terrestial Kingdom. The specifics of what is required isn't completely know. But what we do know is that those that are in the Telestial, are those that had the chance to follow Christ during this life and for whatever reason didn't choose to follow him. Then in the next life they realize where salvation is, and then accept Christ.

I wouldn't really call these ones that fully turned there back on Christ and his Gospel. These are more those that kind of knew in there heart who to follow but for what ever reason they didn't choose to follow that. (They then realize this mistake in the next life, and have proxy baptism preformed)

Those in the Terrestial are those that rejected Christ completely (either on this earth or in the next life). I agree with your idea, those that reject Christ aren't going to magically change and start to follow him. These that reject Christ, and are left to themselves to suffer or really to pay the price of braking the smallest (Terrestial) law. But the Terrestial Kingdom is still a kingdom of glory. This is what I was talking about those being able to return. They aren't returning to God, or Christ. They are just gaining a kingdom of Glory.

Then there are those that are sent to Outer Darkness for good. Satan being one of them. But this is for those that knew the truthfulness of Christ and the Gospel, and rejected and even fought against it. These don't even deserve the chance to pay the price.

I hope that helps some more.

[bytor2112]

Baptism is not required to enter into Spirit Paradise, but a testimony of Jesus Christ is. Hense, the theif on the cross was promised by Jesus that he would be with him in Paradise, even though his baptism would not have been performed then.

Baptism opens the gate to the Celestial Kingdom, and to enter that kingdom, you must be baptised, either in life, or by proxy after death.

According to Joseph Smith, the scripture you reference is actually, "this day shalt thou be with me in the world of spirits, then I will teach you all about it and answer your inquiries."

[bytebear]

According to Joseph Smith, the scripture you reference is actually, "this day shalt thou be with me in the world of spirits, then I will teach you all about it and answer your inquiries."

I would recommend reading the Doctrine and Covenants Section 138, revelation given to Joseh F. Smith. It clarifies the phrase "world of spirits" and gives context to Smith's translation (interpretation) of that verse.

Doctrine and Covenants 138

[bytor2112]

I would recommend reading the Doctrine and Covenants Section 138, revelation given to Joseh F. Smith. It clarifies the phrase "world of spirits" and gives context to Smith's translation (interpretation) of that verse.

Doctrine and Covenants 138

Thanks, I love D&C 138 ........I am not sure the thief was heading for Paradise, I guess after a spell in Spirit Prison?

[Hemidakota]

Yes, everyone needs to be baptized, either in the flesh or by proxy. To my understanding, one of the great projects of the Millennium will be the proxy baptism of every soul that has ever lived on the Earth who died without baptism.

Baptism isn't the only way to remit sins. However, it is required for entrance into God's kingdom- as Christ said, a man must be born of water and the spirit to enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5). However, it is not the only step that is required to remit sins: the remittance of sin also requires making use of the Atonement of Christ. Repentance is just as important.

That is not correct. Only the Celestial Glory [including any sub-divisions within] require the ordinance of Baptism [water/fire], priesthood, Temple Ordinances, and at the highest level, celestial order of marriage.

We do the work of all humanity with 'hope' and 'faith' after thorough repentance; they will achieve the Celestial Kingdom.

[Hemidakota]

I think I might have lost you here.

There is law for the Celestial Kingdom. If we want to be with God and Christ then we need to prove that we can obey this law.

The Law of Obedience or the Law of Christ.

[Just_A_Guy]

I suppose I see baptism as effective because it is in part both a confession of sin and profession of faith in Christ.

With all due respect, it seems like we're straining at gnats here.

Sins are remitted by Christ Jesus and his atoning blood. As a precondition to our claiming the blessings of that Atonement, Jesus has asked us to do "all of the above"--demonstrate faith, repent, and be baptized.

Thanks for the alternate view of John 3:5--I'd never thought of it that way before.

[Hemidakota]

That is not correct. Only the Celestial Glory [including any sub-divisions within] require the ordinance of Baptism [water/fire], priesthood, Temple Ordinances, and at the highest level, celestial order of marriage.

We do the work of all humanity with 'hope' and 'faith' after thorough repentance; they will achieve the Celestial Kingdom.

Resurrecting this thread to point out that only the Celestial bodies will be glorified.

In the resurrection there will be different kinds of bodies; they will not all be alike. The body a man receives will determine his place hereafter. There will be celestial bodies, terrestrial bodies, and telestial bodies, and these bodies will differ as distinctly as do bodies here ...

Bodies will be quickened according to the kingdom which they are judged worthy to enter. Elder Orson Pratt many years ago in writing of the resurrection and the kind of bodies which would be raised in these kingdoms said:

"In every species of animals and plants, there are many resemblances in the general outlines and many specific differences characterizing the individuals of each species. So in the resurrection. There will be several classes of resurrected bodies; some celestial, some terrestrial, some telestial, and some sons of perdition. Each of these classes will differ from the others by prominent and marked distinctions; yet, in each, considered by itself, there will be found many resemblances as well as distinctions. There will be some physical peculiarity by which each individual in every class can be identified. (Doc of Salv 2:286-287.)

Resurrection--Joseph Fielding Smith

[aj4u]

Yes, everyone needs to be baptized, either in the flesh or by proxy. To my understanding, one of the great projects of the Millennium will be the proxy baptism of every soul that has ever lived on the Earth who died without baptism.

Baptism isn't the only way to remit sins. However, it is required for entrance into God's kingdom- as Christ said, a man must be born of water and the spirit to enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5). However, it is not the only step that is required to remit sins: the remittance of sin also requires making use of the Atonement of Christ. Repentance is just as important.

How does baptism or repentance remit sins? The thief on the cross wasn't baptized and he was promised entance into God's kingdom Edited May 2, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

It is only Christ's death on the cross with the shedding of His blood that makes the remission of sin possible. There is nothing we can add to it except faith in Christ. If we have faith, it will show with our works. Our faith and God's grace is what saves us, but without His blood there is no salvation. It is dangerous to put faith in works for the remission of sin. Baptism is a work that cannot save you, but it is an outward expression of an inward change. Like someone saying their vows in a marriage before God and witnesses. It is a commitment where we are identifying with Christ in His death and being resurrected in new life.

Edited May 2, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

LDS believe that with a few exception nearly every one gets to go to one of three heavens (or subdivisions of heaven) and there abide with at least 1 of the persons of God.

You also believe that baptism for remission of sins with correct priesthood authority is neccessary and that baptism must take place either by us here or by a proxy after our deeaths.

So non-LDS remain in a temporary state (that I have heard LDS call spirit prison), away from the presence of God until they have there proxy baptism performed?

So are you going to get around to baptising everyone by proxy either now or in the millenium?

If someone continues to refuse to accept the proxy baptism, are they sent to "outer darkness" eventually?

Now for a slightly trickier question, I'd agree that basptism of a believing repentant person remits their sins, but do LDS believe that is the only way to remit sin? If so, do you have a scripture (I happy to take non-NT scripture quotes) that expresses that point? I am not asking for a defence of baptism for the remission of sins or that it is the normal entry of a disciple into the church but that it is the only way for someone to have their sins remitted. Keeping in mind that Jesus remitted sins during his ministry merely on his say so and that 1 John 1:9 teaches that confession also remits sins (it uses the same word as Acts 2:38)

Thanks in advance for those that take the time to respond.

Paul mentions three levels of heaven, but there isn't any Scripture in the Bible to support that believers will go to one of three sections or sub divisions of heaven. Nor does the Bible mention baptism is essential for the remission of sin or salvation for that matter. Baptism means nothing if we are not born again. It means nothing if we haven't already asked God for forgiveness through confession and walking in repentance. It means nothing unless Jesus is the Lord of our lives. It means nothing if we don't know who Jesus is. For example, Jehovah Witnesses make a big deal of baptism, but they don't know who Jesus is. They think He is Michael the archangel. Therefore, in vain do they baptize confess or repent. Please understand that 1 John 1:9 is referring to God being faithful to forgive and purify us, but it is NOT confession that or baptism that remits sin. Only Christ's death and shed blood atones for or removes sin. No one can atone for his own sin or someone else’s sin save for Jesus. Edited May 3, 2009 by aj4u

[tubaloth]

That is not correct. Only the Celestial Glory [including any sub-divisions within] require the ordinance of Baptism [water/fire]

The Law of Obedience or the Law of Christ.

But aren’t those in the Terrestrial Kingdom the ones that accept Christ (and his Atonement) they just did it after they already had the chance. Meaning really all those in the Telestial Kingdom are pretty much all been baptized by proxy.

But the point really is these accept Christ and his Gospel (thus Baptism). This also is where Christ is to dwell. So I would have to assume that at least the Celestial and Terrestial Kingdom require baptism. I’m not sure of the rest of the steps, like maybe Priesthood, but not necessarily temple ordinances. But I guess it’s a matter if the Law of Christ requires temple.

The Telestial Kingdom are for those that never accept Christ, and thus no reason for baptism.

[aj4u]

Beware lest anyone takes you away from the simplicity in Christ Jesus. All that is important is to know that He (Jesus) is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world/ If we put our faith in Him and trust Him for our salvation, we will be saved. We cannot put our faith in any thing that we can do or other men can do. There is only one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus Christ. Paul said I will hear nothing among you but Jesus Christ crucified.

[spiritseeker]

Aj4u read in St. John 3:5;

"Jesus answered, Verily Verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Even Jesus Christ himself was baptized... if he took the steps to have this ordinance performed. I believe we should follow His example. ( Mk 1:9)

" Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost." ( Acts 2:38 )

Within the Church this is how we perform this (in this very order) baptism and then the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Peter states right there be baptized for the remission of your sins...

There are numerous scriptures within the Book of Mormon , Doctrines and Covenants also that testify to the necessity of Baptism.

[aj4u]

Thanks for pointing that out. I do believe in being baptized out of obedience, but not for salvation. Born of water could mean natural birth. Born of Spirit could mean being born again.

[aj4u]

It is written for by grace are you saved through faith. We cannot be saved without their being remission for our sin. Ro. 10: 9,10 state "If you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead thou shall be saved!" There are no if ands or buts about it. "For with the heart man believes onto righteousness and the mouth confession is made onto salvation." That is being baptized in Christ Jesus! Peter calls for each one of them individually (hekastos, but NIV every one) to be baptized . . . in (on the basis of) the name of Jesus Christ--that is, as Joseph Addison Alexander puts it, "by his authority, acknowledging his claims, subscribing to his doctrine, engaging in his service, and relying on his merits" (quoted in Stott 1990:78). By repentance and baptism we show that we have met the conditions for receiving forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Spirit. By making repentance and baptism conditions for the reception of salvation blessings, Luke does not imply that salvation comes by merit or ritual. He is not promoting some necessary second experience. He consistently presents both forgiveness and the Spirit as gifts of grace (3:19; 5:31; 13:38; 11:17; 15:8). The gift of the Spirit is the Spirit himself, who regenerates, indwells, unites, and transforms lives. All the fruit and gifts of the Spirit flow from this one great gift. (Bible gateway commentary).

Edited May 3, 2009 by aj4u

[Islander]

This is an old and endless debate. The resistance about baptism comes from the need to acknowledge (therefore) that one having authority MUST perform it. If Jesus Himself spoke in clear and transparent terms about baptism and subjected Himself to it it stands to reason that it is a requirement. The Apostle Paul, having received a revelation from Christ Himself was soon after baptized.

Pointing to a letter among friends and co-religioners that merely brushes on the subject as a side issue is just short-sighted. It is just a letter, not a thesis in Christian theology designed to dissect item by item all points of doctrine.

At the end some will believe and some will not. That is the reason for NEW revelation; to put to rest the philosophy of men and raise up God's word. Much of what the Apostles did was just that, clarify and expound. But even then (3 John 8-9) as now, some will reject the word of God in favor of their own doctrine.

[aj4u]

We need to be obedient when it comes to being baptized, but putting our faith in baptizm as if it has the power to forgive sins and save us is not required for salvation. If we put our faith in works then our faith is not in Christ. There is nothing we can do to add to what Christ has already done. If we have faith, it will be reflected in our works. But trusting in works for a right relationship with God will end in total failure. There are many who are baptized that are going to hell because they go down as dry sinners and come up wet ones!

Edited May 5, 2009 by aj4u
I edited for clarification!