Is Polygamy Required for Exaltation?

[Jim108]

I came across this and I would like your thoughts on the matter. Is polygamy required for exaltation? Following is a quote from Bringham Young. It is found in the Journal of Discourses 11:269

"The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy"

This does not seem to jive with what I have learned so far, but this is BY talking on the record. Your input is much appreciated, Jim

[LittleWyvern]

If it was required for exaltation we would be allowed to do it. Try studying the words of more modern prophets on the issue instead.

[mikbone]

Dunno, but I doubt it.

My wife says no.

In our household, she is the authority on that point.

I bet it is the same on the other side.

[Jim108]

If it was required for exaltation we would be allowed to do it. Try studying the words of more modern prophets on the issue instead.

But he is the Prophet Bringham Young. Explain to me the this, how can you discount a Prophet. My point is not meant to be argumentative, but rather I do not understand how you can pick and choose what you believe in and what you do not when the person here is a Prophet. Help explain this please, Jim

[Justice]

The idea here is that whatever God commands us to do, that is what is required.

I believe Polygamy is an ultimate expression of obedience for many.

[Faded]

It might be another case where I disagree with one of Brigham Young's personal opinions again. Did he claim it was revealed to him by God?

[LittleWyvern]

But he is the Prophet Bringham Young. Explain to me the this, how can you discount a Prophet. My point is not meant to be argumentative, but rather I do not understand how you can pick and choose what you believe in and what you do not when the person here is a Prophet. Help explain this please, Jim

I'm not discrediting him, just pointing out that the revelation he received was unique for the time that he lived in. Perhaps during his time, when polygamy was allowed, it was required for exaltation (although this still is debatable). Now that polygamy is expressedly forbidden by current prophets, whose revelation is unique for our time right now, it makes no sense that polygamy is required for exaltation.

Generally, when the teachings of current and past prophets seem to conflict, go with the teachings of the more modern prophet, as these teachings are most likely based on the most up-to-date revelation.

[mikbone]

But he is the Prophet Bringham Young. Explain to me the this, how can you discount a Prophet. My point is not meant to be argumentative, but rather I do not understand how you can pick and choose what you believe in and what you do not when the person here is a Prophet. Help explain this please, Jim

Yeah, hes a prophet. Hes also a man. He can speak as both.

Brigham Young spoke as a man lots. I think he said that man would never go to the moon once, I've never seen the quote and don't think its worth the time too look it up.

Did he make that statement off the cuff, or did he say "and this I say in the Name of Jesus Christ" after the statment?

[Just_A_Guy]

How about we look at the quote in context?

Now, we as Christians desire to be saved in the kingdom of God. We desire to attain to the possession of all the blessings there are for the most faithful man or people that ever lived upon the face of the earth, even him who is said to be the father of the faithful, Abraham of old. We wish to obtain all that father Abraham obtained. I wish here to say to the Elders of Israel, and to all the members of this Church and kingdom, that it is in the hearts of many of them to wish that the doctrine of polygamy was not taught and practiced by us. It may be hard for many, and especially for the ladies, yet it is no harder for them than it is for the gentlemen. It is the word of the Lord, and I wish to say to you, and all the world, that if you desire with all your hearts to obtain the blessings which Abraham obtained, you will be polygamists at lest in your faith, or you will come short of enjoying the salvation and the glory which Abraham has obtained. This is as true as that God lives. You who wish that there were no such thing in existence, if you have in your hearts to say: "We will pass along in the Church without obeying or submitting to it in our faith or believing this order, because, for aught that we know, this community may be broken up yet, and we may have lucrative offices offered to us; we will not, therefore, be polygamists lest we should fail in obtaining some earthly honor, character and office, etc,"—the man that has that in his heart, and will continue to persist in pursuing that policy, will come short of dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son, in celestial glory. The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them.

Journal of Discourses 11:269

I think he's being pretty clear. You didn't need to be a polygamist, so long as you at least accepted the principle and were not avoiding the practice thereof solely in order to gain the praise and lucre of the world.

At any rate, since only around 1/3 of Mormon men were living polygamy at any given time, the idea that Brigham is going stand up and condemn 2/3 of Mormon men to a lower level of heaven is just plain silly.

[Jim108]

It might be another case where I disagree with one of Brigham Young's personal opinions again. Did he claim it was revealed to him by God?

Faded, how do know when these Prophets are talking things revealed by God. BY is talking about a very serious point and issue. It is about the most important thing to the LDS. Why would he say this, on the record, and know that it was not from God. This is big stuff here. When do you believe a prophet and when do you not. This opens up some big problems in what to believe. With respect, Jim

[Jim108]

How about we look at the quote in context?

Now, we as Christians desire to be saved in the kingdom of God. We desire to attain to the possession of all the blessings there are for the most faithful man or people that ever lived upon the face of the earth, even him who is said to be the father of the faithful, Abraham of old. We wish to obtain all that father Abraham obtained. I wish here to say to the Elders of Israel, and to all the members of this Church and kingdom, that it is in the hearts of many of them to wish that the doctrine of polygamy was not taught and practiced by us. It may be hard for many, and especially for the ladies, yet it is no harder for them than it is for the gentlemen. It is the word of the Lord, and I wish to say to you, and all the world, that if you desire with all your hearts to obtain the blessings which Abraham obtained, you will be polygamists at lest in your faith, or you will come short of enjoying the salvation and the glory which Abraham has obtained. This is as true as that God lives. You who wish that there were no such thing in existence, if you have in your hearts to say: "We will pass along in the Church without obeying or submitting to it in our faith or believing this order, because, for aught that we know, this community may be broken up yet, and we may have lucrative offices offered to us; we will not, therefore, be polygamists lest we should fail in obtaining some earthly honor, character and office, etc,"—the man that has that in his heart, and will continue to persist in pursuing that policy, will come short of dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son, in celestial glory. The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them.

Journal of Discourses 11:269

I think he's being pretty clear. You didn't need to be a polygamist, so long as you at least accepted the principle and were not avoiding the practice thereof solely in order to gain the praise and lucre of the world.

At any rate, since only around 1/3 of Mormon men were living polygamy at any given time, the idea that Brigham is going stand up and condemn 2/3 of Mormon men to a lower level of heaven is just plain silly.

"the man that has that in his heart, and will continue to persist in pursuing that policy, will come short of dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son, in celestial glory. The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy."

No, look above, this says that they will come short of dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son. BY is saying you must be a polygamist to be exalted. He is clear. Jim

[Faded]

Faded, how do know when these Prophets are talking things revealed by God. BY is talking about a very serious point and issue. It is about the most important thing to the LDS. Why would he say this, on the record, and know that it was not from God. This is big stuff here. When do you believe a prophet and when do you not. This opens up some big problems in what to believe. With respect, Jim

In February of 1843, Joseph Smith corrected a couple who thought that "a prophet is always a prophet," [in other words, every word spoken and every action take by a Prophet of God was always inspired and a message from God no matter what.] instead explaining that "a prophet was a prophet only when acting as such,"

Now take that statement together with what Wilford Woodruff said, and yes he was speaking as a Prophet in the name of the Lord at the time:

The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (This was in relation to the abolishment of the practice of polygamy, so a lot of members expressed a their doubts about the decision. It had been revealed by the Lord after all. President Woodruff was explaining that he was not leading the Church astray on this matter.)

So what we find is that:

1.) We shouldn't take everything that a Prophet of God says and does as revelation from God. If Thomas Monson likes Sprite better than 7-up, there isn't an inspired message with eternal consequences involved in it.

2.) Prophets of God are mortal and fallible men and it is important that we remember that they are not perfect and they are not all-knowing. Only Christ was perfect after all.

3.) If a prophet of God is acting as a prophet of God (and they will make it very clear when they are doing so), then they are acting under the direction of God. They will never lead the Church astray, their counsel will always be the revealed will of God as if spoken by God himself, and the Prophet will not err. God would remove them (most likely that means they would die) before he would allow the Prophet to lead His people astray.

4.) Prophets of God can have their personal opinions on things. Those opinions are not necessarily the revealed will of God.

Edited March 31, 2009 by Faded

[Jim108]

In February of 1843, Joseph Smith corrected a couple who thought that "a prophet is always a prophet," [in other words, every word spoken and every action take by a Prophet of God was always inspired and a message from God no matter what.] instead explaining that "a prophet was a prophet only when acting as such,"

Now take that statement together with what Wilford Woodruff said, and yes he was speaking as a Prophet in the name of the Lord at the time:

The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (This was in relation to the abolishment of the practice of polygamy, so a lot of members expressed a their doubts about the decision. It had been revealed by the Lord after all. President Woodruff was explaining that he was not leading the Church astray on this matter.)

So what we find is that:

1.) We shouldn't take everything that a Prophet of God says and does as revelation from God. If Thomas Monson likes Sprite better than 7-up, there isn't an inspired message with eternal consequences involved in it.

2.) Prophets of God are mortal and fallible men and it is important that we remember that they are not perfect and they are not all-knowing. Only Christ was perfect after all.

3.) If a prophet of God is acting as a prophet of God (and they will make it very clear when they are doing so), then they are acting under the direction of God. They will never lead the Church astray, their counsel will always be the revealed will of God as if spoken by God himself, and the Prophet will not err. God would remove them (most likely that means they would die) before he would allow the Prophet to lead His people astray.

4.) Prophets of God can have their personal opinions on things. Those opinions are not the revealed will of God.

Faded, I want to thank you for this post. It is logical. I think however, that when BY made this statement it was ill thought. Thanks, Jim

[Palerider]

Since you have read all of the Journal of Discourses.....perhaps you should spend some time at this link....

Answers About Mormons and Mormon Belief (LDS FAQ - Latter-day Saints)

[Guest MacawMan426]

Polygamy was banned over 100 years ago, where have you been?

I'm supised there are still people out there that think we practice that still, why is that?

[Justice]

My wife's vote outnumbers mine 3 to 1...

does that count as polygamy?

[Guest MacawMan426]

No, that counts as you being whipped.

LOL

[captmoroniRM]

To avoid rehashing the same material, I'll just post this from SPAM:

Do Mormons Practice Polygamy? - S.P.A.M. - Society for the Prevention of Anti-Mormonism

[Moksha]

That Polygamy Theology is fraught with perils, since it all seems designed to justify itself. As has been pointed out, now that we no longer practice it, we can examine both its self serving nature and its pitfalls. We can even see first hand its true consequences in the FLDS, including subterfuge and child brides.

.

[WillowTheWhisp]

The part of Brigham Young's quote which seems significant to me is:

because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them.

He is talking specifically there about people who have been asked by the Lord to take more than one wife and have refused to do so. If on the other hand the Lord specifically instructs us not to do something he is hardly going to penalise us for being obedient to that instruction is he?

[Michael_Newman]

Moses is a prophet too, but that does not mean we (in 2009) are to follow everything what Moses said at the time he was a prophet over his people. God's children are to follow their living prophet of the day.

(You might also watch the 60 Minutes TV interview where out prophet was asked the same question)

As for journals, they are not considered canonized scripture. Only the Standard Works should be the final say. I suggest you refer to them for a more accurate moder-day revelation.

All my best,

Michael

PS: Here is BYU link that contains the teachings of the church:

http://www.lds.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=9&pictureid=79

Encyclopedia of Mormonism Link

[Just_A_Guy]

No, look above, this says that they will come short of dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son. BY is saying you must be a polygamist to be exalted. He is clear. Jim

As long as we're playing "gotcha" with soundbytes, allow me to indulge in the same game:

The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy

These words are copied verbatim from Jim's post. The logical assumption is that Jim believes we can become gods, but only if we enter into polygamy. Context is, of course, irrelevant.

[livy111us]

Brigham Young taught that plural marriage was required for exaltation. While he did teach that it was an eternal principle, he said men can embrace the principle without taking a second wife and still be justified before the Lord (Journal of Wilford Woodruff, Sept.24, 1871). He also said, "It does not matter how many wives you have here or there"(Journal of Discourses, Vol.14, p.162).

Polygamy a requirement for exaltation - FAIRMormon

[Faded]

These words are copied verbatim from Jim's post. The logical assumption is that Jim believes we can become gods, but only if we enter into polygamy. Context is, of course, irrelevant.

As Jim is not LDS, that's a fairly silly conclusion to come to. I think the man is asking a sincere question and is being perfectly polite about it.

We Latter Day Saints do get over-accustomed to being attacked, that sometimes we retaliate when there was no attack.

[Just_A_Guy]

Faded, with all due respect, Jim has had several excellent explanations given him but still clings doggedly to the soundbyte. He doesn't strike me as being interested in context; and my hope with the previous post was to jar him into realizing that, yes, context really does matter.