Kidnapping And Murder

[AFDaw]

Cal - Are you trying to get your post count up? I think it's more about quality rather than quantity. I digress...

AFD--so I guess God cares more about the wicked than the rightous? He will sacrifice the rightous for the benefit of the wicked? Quite some God you have there!

Yes...that's exactly what I said. I said that God cares more about the wicked than the righteous.

/sarcasim off

The simple most basic fact is that the righteous and the unrighteous are ALL God's children. He loves us all the same. I have no doubt that his love for me, who believes in him, is just as strong as his love for you, who doesn't believe in him. I'm willing to bet that I could say "God love the righteous more than the wicked" and you would come back and say "So he's shows favoritism? Why doesn't God love all his children the same? Quite some God you have there!" Right? Obviously it's a no-win situation with you. But I do agree that yes...it is "Quite some God" we have.

I'll bet that if you asked the people giving all that blood, they would have rather God been with the occupants of the planes! If God can occupy hearts, why can't he occupy cockpits?

How do you know God wasn't with the occupants of those planes? Besides...you missed my point. Some will chose to blame God, others will chose to draw closer to God to find out what they can do to help.

Priesthood--responding to your query---I thought that the priesthood was the power to get God to do stuff for you--like heal the sick and injured. If God can heal without the priesthood, why the priesthood in the first place?

The Priesthood is not "the power to get God to do stuff for you" It's the power and authority to act in God's name. God also holds the Priesthood, so when he "heals" someone, he's doing it with the power of the Priesthood.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 7 2004, 05:37 PM

“Therefore, the mormon God is truely HEARTLESS. He can alliviate suffering and refuses to do so on a regular basis. Oh, he does it for whom he "choses", according to mormons. Only if you are rightous enough and have the "priesthood". Does it matter that you never had a chance to learn about mormonism---NOPE---God won't step in unless you actually go to church regularly! Is God going to solve your financial problems? Not if you don't pay your tithing! God only helps people who jump through the right hoops.

Snow--OK, just for fun, let's hear them! :) What have I said that doesn't have AT LEAST some element of truth, or is not a logical conclusion based on valid premises? Which of my premises are faulty OR which of my conclusions are faulty? Let's be specific.

There are far far too many mistruths, errors and logical fallacies in your whole post to cover in one evening so let's just started with the numerous mistruths, errors and fallacies in this one small paragraph:

>>>Therefore, the mormon God is truely HEARTLESS.

1. As a statment, that is false and quite the opposite of what Mormons believe about God. It just will not do to define LDS beliefs in a way that defies our own self-understanding.

2. As the conclusion of an argument, it a completely erroneous. Here are the propositions that you think led to such a conclusion (along with commentary)

a. God is in control over pain and suffering. (fallacy, assumes something not yet demonstrated.

b. Mormons and Mormon scripture regularly say that God is involved in this thing and that thing, punishes this or that person. (unrelated in any substantive way to the fallacy a.)

c. The above two items means that God is in sufficient control to make him responsible for both good and evil. (no evidence has been offered for this propostion/conclusion - besides which it assumes something that Mormonism does not accept - that God is the author of or the allower of evil in a way that make him the owner/steward of it)

d. God "apparently" turns a blind eye (nothing you have said so far makes any such thing apparent and such a position is in opposite to LDS beliefs which hold that God is very interested in the affairs of this children.

dd. This is logically inconsistent with your proposition b, which calls for a God who does not turn a blind eye.

e. You mention stories of God warning or advising his choosen few. (red herring - among other things. Your antedoctal reccollections of Mormon myths and stories hardly has any import for this discussion)

f. You again claim that "apparently" God could care less for children with cancer (no evidence offered and nothing you have said thus far make any such conclusion "apparent" and such in contrary to LDS belief which holds that God does care)

All the above fallacies lead you to the conclusion that God is heartless which is still factly untrue in LDS beliefs.

>>> He can alliviate suffering and refuses to do so on a regular basis.

Does he? What evidence do you have of that? If God can intervene, a point you have failed to establish, your position assumes that his so refusing does not have a higher better purpose that is ultimately more humane.

>>>Oh, he does it for whom he "choses", according to mormons.

Here your poisoning the waters, Additionally you are giving the appearance that Mormons, as opposed to non-Mormons believe this when it fact it is a pretty standard belief among all believers. In addition, Mormons also believe in covenants - that is is not just a matter of chosing, but also a matter of contractual obligation.

>>>Only if you are rightous enough and have the "priesthood".

Outright falsehood. There is no such belief in Mormonism.

>>>Does it matter that you never had a chance to learn about mormonism---NOPE---God won't step in unless you actually go to church regularly!

That makes two outright falsehoods in a row.

>>>Is God going to solve your financial problems? Not if you don't pay your tithing!

False on two counts. 1. Paying tithing does not mean that God WILL solve your financial situations and 2. God may or may not do anything to solve or not solve the financial situation of those who don't pay their taxes. Either way, you have mistated LDS beliefs, offered no proof to support your position and assume things not in evidence.

>>>Not if you don't pay your tithing! God only helps people who jump through the right hoops.

Another outright falsehood that is out of step with LDS beliefs and the evidence (lack of) that you have presented.

[AFDaw]

Very nice post Snow. You have more patience than I do. I enjoyed reading it.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by HalleysComet+Feb 7 2004, 06:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (HalleysComet @ Feb 7 2004, 06:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Feb 7 2004, 06:59 PM

Yet we will cry more for the young woman who was born perfect and had her time on the earth as mostly beautiful experience and whose parents totally enjoyed her, than for the child misformed whose parents suffered greatly...as well as himself.

So if a man or woman was raped or molested as a child and goes and does the same to another should we cry for them and condone it?

Halley

I don't get your response or question to what I wrote. What do you mean?

[Guest Starsky]

The Priesthood is not "the power to get God to do stuff for you" It's the power and authority to act in God's name. God also holds the Priesthood, so when he "heals" someone, he's doing it with the power of the Priesthood.

The priesthood isn't held by God. He is the priesthood (God is love). He can't hold authority to act in his name.

God is love and the power of the priesthood is love/charity. The more love/charity a man has the more priesthood power he obtains.

D&C 121:

45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.

[AFDaw]

He can't hold authority to act in his name. 

You don't think so?

I do :)

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Feb 7 2004, 05:51 PM

Or is it that you do not know how to answer it because it goes against the point that you are trying to make. If I punched you in the face would you blame me or blame God for not stopping it?

Who cares. It is a false analogy. I blame the rapist and I blame you when you punch innocent people. That, however, has nothing to do with theodicy - the problem of evil.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by AFDaw@Feb 7 2004, 06:53 PM

He can't hold authority to act in his name. 

You don't think so?

I do :)

He is the authority...can He hold Himself? Sure...I'll let Him.

[Guest Starsky]

the problem of evil.

Evil is only possible if there is good. Do we do away with good so we can get rid of evil?

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Winnie G@Feb 7 2004, 09:37 AM

I become worried daily for the well being of my own son who lived through his own ordeal.

Winnie G~

I wish I could say something comforting to your son....I wish that bad things didn't happen......Winnie, you have gained more respect in my eyes just for who you are. Your son is very lucky to have you as a mom, and he would have had a rougher time dealing with his nightmares without you being there for him. You are a very strong woman who didn't turn his and your nightmare into a God bashing event. My hat is off to you!

And I came home from a lousy day to a ghost from my past asking me a favor.....and speaking of bashing....I'm going to go to a hockey game and just scream.....cause I can!

[Guest Starsky]

And I came home from a lousy day to a ghost from my past asking me a favor.....and speaking of bashing....I'm going to go to a hockey game and just scream.....cause I can! 

Good way to deal with it....but you have gotten my curiosity up. Ghosts from your past asking you for a favor....

I mean that really does get me going! LOL Wanna share more?

[Guest antishock82003]

So. For Mormons God is not all-powerful and in accordance with His plan to advance His offspring towards His level of understanding and power He is therefore is absolved of negligence because by allowing Evil one can know the difference between good and bad?

TR2,

I blame the scumbag for what he did. I also blame the Being that created him, knowing full well that His creation would someday do what he did to that girl. How you can worship such a being is beyond me. Your god is not worthy of anyone's devotion. You should seriously consider giving the Mormon god a go.

[Snow]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Feb 7 2004, 08:19 PM

So.  For Mormons God is not all-powerful and in accordance with His plan to advance His offspring towards His level of understanding and power He is therefore is absolved of negligence because by allowing Evil one can know the difference between good and bad?

We believe in a powerful god and maybe even all-powerful. It depends how you define all-powerful. I don't believe that God can do contradictory things - like cook a T-bone so big that even he cannot eat it. I don't think that God can act in ways that defy eternal laws - like the law of justice. I don't think that God is all-powerful in that he created all things including evil. I don't think that God can perfect his children without the Plan of Salvation (or at least do it better, with less suffering).

Whether he could mechanically do any of that is one thing. Whether he could do that and still be God is another thing.

What what it is worth, I doubt that anybody, mainline Christians included, really thinks that God is truly all-powerful, being able to do anything at all with absolutely no limit to what he can do.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Feb 7 2004, 08:19 PM

So. For Mormons God is not all-powerful and in accordance with His plan to advance His offspring towards His level of understanding and power He is therefore is absolved of negligence because by allowing Evil one can know the difference between good and bad?

TR2,

I blame the scumbag for what he did. I also blame the Being that created him, knowing full well that His creation would someday do what he did to that girl. How you can worship such a being is beyond me. Your god is not worthy of anyone's devotion. You should seriously consider giving the Mormon god a go.

God is all powerful.

God only asks one thing...

Isaiah 5:

1 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:

2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.

3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.

4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth awild grapes?

Are you evil because of what your children do? Do they do only those things you make them do? Can you prevent them from being individuals? Would you if you could, control everything they did?

[Behunin]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Feb 6 2004, 11:27 AM

I'm not blaming God. Why don't you answer the question instead of attacking me? How could a just, loving, merciful God allow such a thing to happen?

A Betty Eadie explaination would be that we all chose how we would die in the pre exsistance before we came to earth. This little girl is not really dead, just without her body at this time.

[Behunin]

Originally posted by Peace@Feb 7 2004, 10:26 PM

Are you evil because of what your children do? Do they do only those things you make them do? Can you prevent them from being individuals? Would you if you could, control everything they did?

I have often wondered about these questions. While I want my children to make good choices, I know that if I controlled EVERYTHING they do, they would not have the earthly experience they were meant to have.

[AFDaw]

AS - So basically you want a God who FORCES everyone to make the right choice and FORCES everyone to be nice and kind and righteous and always do good things?

I think you rejected that plan once, not sure why you would want it now.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Peace@Feb 7 2004, 07:47 PM

And I came home from a lousy day to a ghost from my past asking me a favor.....and speaking of bashing....I'm going to go to a hockey game and just scream.....cause I can! 

Good way to deal with it....but you have gotten my curiosity up. Ghosts from your past asking you for a favor....

I mean that really does get me going! LOL Wanna share more?

Peace~

This ghost is still alive....and I won't be able to talk tomorrow at work now....but I feel GREAT! Screaming at the top of your lungs is great when you have a throng of people to scream with....you blend right in.....:)

Not to make light of the subject at hand....But if we all have the same views and ideas of what is right, what is wrong, what is truth, and what is not....then what kind of world would we live in?

The "mormon" God is the same as everyone else's....looked at a different way perhaps...but still the same Being.

If we beat our heads against a brick wall everytime something went wrong in the world we would have a constant headache, and nothing would come out of it. And if we stopped trying to pass the blame on an unjust God, about everything that goes wrong in life that we don't have control over (or even the things that we do), and just suck it up and try to do our best to make things better.....we would be a lot happier people as a whole.

I thought of that old Coke commercial...."I'd like to teach the world to sing...in perfect harmony..." It's a nice thought sometimes...just not going to happen (till later :) )

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by AFDaw@Feb 7 2004, 10:03 PM

AS - So basically you want a God who FORCES everyone to make the right choice and FORCES everyone to be nice and kind and righteous and always do good things?

I think you rejected that plan once, not sure why you would want it now.

AFD,

I don't believe in your god. I don't believe in any god for that matter. But, if there were a god, I would think that creating misery just so we can distinguish the good times from the bad is sick. I wouldn't have that god force anyone to do anything, but I sure as hell wouldn't expect him to create child rapists just so we can know what child rape is and how it affects us emotionally. That's sick and disgusting. If you had a puppy, would you throw it in a pen with rabid pit bulls just to show it how good it has when it is with you...safe, fed, warm, and loved? No. You wouldn't. And neither would I.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Peace+Feb 7 2004, 05:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Feb 7 2004, 05:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Feb 7 2004, 05:46 PM

Peace, you said: Everyone on the planet can access the power to be protected from evil for themselves and their families....but even that doesn't quarantee safety....consider ..."

If the power of God you talk about doesn't GUARANTEE anything, then what is it supposed to do? If it can't be counted on, why should anyone rely on it?

Well you must always accept that God knows best. You would be putting yourself in complete control, with no recognition of God's will if you received what you wanted everytime reguardless whether or not it was what was best..

Just as a parent can't grant their children everything they want...because sometimes...though it doesn't always appear so to the child, what they want may not be what is right for them.

I believe that before we came, we foresaw our life and was asked what specific things we wanted to gain from this experience...What we would be willing to suffer...etc.

With this in mind, we must accept that somethings are going to happen, even evil things. But we still chose to come and get a body and have life in whatever situation that brought us.

It isn't any harder for me to consider this beautiful young woman (who, up to this time had a really nice life) having to endure this horrible end which only lasted a few days at worst....than it is for me to consider a child who was born wretchedly deformed and had to live 40 or 50 years in that horrid condition.

Peace--ahhh, the old "god knows best" argument. What I call the "retreat in the face of facts" approach. I guess that argument can be used to explain almost anything.

You made the assertion that you saw your life before you were born. What evidence do you have for that belief? Can you cite even any scripture that says that humans get to see the details of their lives before they are born? And if they can, then I guess it is all PREDESTINATION, isn't it? By the way, when you were up there seeing all of this, did you happen to get a look at the stock market a year from now? Mind sharing that one with us?

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Peace@Feb 7 2004, 07:23 PM

the problem of evil.

Evil is only possible if there is good. Do we do away with good so we can get rid of evil?

Says who? Your notions of "good" and "evil" are very relative. The idea that you think it is "good" that God let that little girl get kidnapped, possibly raped, and murdered is asinine in my book. If indeed your idea of "good" is good, then I don't want any part of it, and I would hope you don't influence your family morally to any strong degree.

[Cal]

AFD--you said: The Priesthood is not "the power to get God to do stuff for you" It's the power and authority to act in God's name. God also holds the Priesthood, so when he "heals" someone, he's doing it with the power of the Priesthood.

So if the Priesthood is NOT, as you imply, a power that benefits people, why care about it? For example, when you act in God's name, I assume you are calling on God to do something you can't do yourself. If you could do it yourself, you wouldn't need God, right? And it what God is doing for you doesn't do anything for anybody, why does it matter if anybody has it?

[Cal]

“Therefore, the mormon God is truely HEARTLESS. He can alliviate suffering and refuses to do so on a regular basis. Oh, he does it for whom he "choses", according to mormons. Only if you are rightous enough and have the "priesthood". Does it matter that you never had a chance to learn about mormonism---NOPE---God won't step in unless you actually go to church regularly! Is God going to solve your financial problems? Not if you don't pay your tithing! God only helps people who jump through the right hoops.

Snow--OK, just for fun, let's hear them! :) What have I said that doesn't have AT LEAST some element of truth, or is not a logical conclusion based on valid premises? Which of my premises are faulty OR which of my conclusions are faulty? Let's be specific.

There are far far too many mistruths, errors and logical fallacies in your whole post to cover in one evening so let's just started with the numerous mistruths, errors and fallacies in this one small paragraph:

>>>Therefore, the mormon God is truely HEARTLESS.

1. As a statment, that is false and quite the opposite of what Mormons believe about God. It just will not do to define LDS beliefs in a way that defies our own self-understanding.

2. As the conclusion of an argument, it a completely erroneous. Here are the propositions that you think led to such a conclusion (along with commentary)

a. God is in control over pain and suffering. (fallacy, assumes something not yet demonstrated. b. Mormons and Mormon scripture regularly say that God is involved in this thing and that thing, punishes this or that person. (unrelated in any substantive way to the fallacy a.)

c. The above two items means that God is in sufficient control to make him responsible for both good and evil. (no evidence has been offered for this propostion/conclusion - besides which it assumes something that Mormonism does not accept - that God is the author of or the allower of evil in a way that make him the owner/steward of it)

d. God "apparently" turns a blind eye (nothing you have said so far makes any such thing apparent and such a position is in opposite to LDS beliefs which hold that God is very interested in the affairs of this children.

dd. This is logically inconsistent with your proposition b, which calls for a God who does not turn a blind eye.

e. You mention stories of God warning or advising his choosen few. (red herring - among other things. Your antedoctal reccollections of Mormon myths and stories hardly has any import for this discussion)

f. You again claim that "apparently" God could care less for children with cancer (no evidence offered and nothing you have said thus far make any such conclusion "apparent" and such in contrary to LDS belief which holds that God does care)

All the above fallacies lead you to the conclusion that God is heartless which is still factly untrue in LDS beliefs.

>>> He can alliviate suffering and refuses to do so on a regular basis.

Does he? What evidence do you have of that? If God can intervene, a point you have failed to establish, your position assumes that his so refusing does not have a higher better purpose that is ultimately more humane.

>>>

Here your poisoning the waters, Additionally you are giving the appearance that Mormons, as opposed to non-Mormons believe this when it fact it is a pretty standard belief among all believers. In addition, Mormons also believe in covenants - that is is not just a matter of chosing, but also a matter of contractual obligation.

Outright falsehood. There is no such belief in Mormonism.

>>>Does it matter that you never had a chance to learn about mormonism---NOPE---God won't step in unless you actually go to church regularly!

That makes two outright falsehoods in a row.

>>>

False on two counts. 1. Paying tithing does not mean that God WILL solve your financial situations and 2. God may or may not do anything to solve or not solve the financial situation of those who don't pay their taxes. Either way, you have mistated LDS beliefs, offered no proof to support your position and assume things not in evidence.

>>>Not if you don't pay your tithing! God only helps people who jump through the right hoops.

Another outright falsehood that is out of step with LDS beliefs and the evidence (lack of) that you have presented.

Snow--what you have mostly done here is simply make bald assertions to the contrary, not cite evidence. What little substance you have provide is easily address and controverted. Here goes:

HEARTLESSNESS--- So all those stories about God healing people at will are false? And since he obviously doesn't heal everyone who asks, he plays favorites? Sounds pretty HEARTLESS TO ME! That mormons, as a fact, do not view God as heartless is a RED HERRING of your own. I have no doubt that MORMONS do not view God as HEARTLESS, I never said they did and it doesn't matter to the argument. My point is that MORMONS DO view God as being able to influence, to heal, to punish etc, which is tantamount to saying he has power over Good and evil. Because He uses it indiscriminately ( heals some and doesn't heal others) it is VERY logical to conclude that, as to those he choses not to heal, HE IS HEARTLESS!

For example, if I have two children and both are dying from the same disease, and I have the power to heal both, but chose to only heal one of them, and I let the other suffer in pain for years, fully having the power to alleviate the pain, but chosing not to, what does that make me? You got it,, HEARTLESS!

GOD IS IN CONTROL---- Exactly what mormons believe! If you are rightous and live up to your covenants, God CHOSES to bless you! If you don't he doesn't bless you (what ever bless means!--must be good stuff--mormons love to be blessed) So God has set up a system where if you don't act a certain way, you get ignored as to the blessing stuff. The contract argument is vacuous. The only reason you even believe in a covenant is because "god told you so". God set it up, right? He set the conditions" "Be good and I'll make good stuff happen to you and keep bad stuff from happening-"--isn't that what a blessing is? If not, who needs it anyway? AGAIN--Heartless ie if you have no access to the priesthood and all these covenants (in other words, not mormon) you are out of luck. Heartless, babe, heartless.

PRIESTHOOD----Exactly! Are you trying to assert that you don't need the priesthood to call god down to heal people? If not, then why all this "laying on of the hands stuff"?

TITHING----Sorry Charley, it's what mormons believe. Pay your tithing "the windows of heaven will be open", and we mormons will get up in testimony meeting and tell eachother all about howwe the paid our tithing and god sent us money in the mail, made our debts go away, gave us a raise, you name it. You got to pay to play! Your god says, "You want me to give you money...give me some!" Heartless!

[Tr2]

I blame the scumbag for what he did. I also blame the Being that created him, knowing full well that His creation would someday do what he did to that girl. How you can worship such a being is beyond me. Your god is not worthy of anyone's devotion. You should seriously consider giving the Mormon god a go.

So you are blaming God because he did not create a robot? What is your explanation for all the wonderful people God has created? Do they not count? There are a lot more good people in this world than there are murderers and rapists.

And you are right, the mormon god is a very impotent god with no real ability. But why would I want to worship somebody who has no more ability than myself?

Since God is being held accountable, why are we not holding others accountable too. We can blame his parents for creating such a monster, we can blame his teachers in school for not recognizing the early patterns of a potential rapist, we can blame the high school football coach for cutting him.

Many are forgetting God did not create a rapist, God created a human being who was able to make their own choices. Whether that person chooses to teach a child to read or rapes and kills them is what they have done. God has historically always taken action through human hands. My big question here, how does a man kidnap a child, rape and kill her with not one single person hearing or seeing something suspicious?Is it really right and just to blame God when man chooses not to help?

[Tr2]

Who cares. It is a false analogy. I blame the rapist and I blame you when you punch innocent people. That, however, has nothing to do with theodicy - the problem of evil.

So because it doesn't help your argument, it is insignificant. If you do not blame the person who taught me to punch, why do you blame the person who created the rapists sexual desires? You say false analogy, but fail to state why. Is is as simple as I've made out, because it doesn't support your idea? It seems that anything that doesn't support your idea is stupid. Wonder why that is. You certainly do think highly of yourself.