Kidnapping And Murder

[Cal]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Feb 8 2004, 07:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Feb 8 2004, 07:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Feb 7 2004, 07:23 PM

the problem of evil.

Evil is only possible if there is good. Do we do away with good so we can get rid of evil?

Says who? Your notions of "good" and "evil" are very relative. The idea that you think it is "good" that God let that little girl get kidnapped, possibly raped, and murdered is asinine in my book. If indeed your idea of "good" is good, then I don't want any part of it, and I would hope you don't influence your family morally to any strong degree.

Anti--exactly! Have you noticed that in order to come to some contorted answer as to why God allows all this horrible stuff, mormons like Peace have to come up with arguments whose logical implications are horrendous--it makes them into moral pigmies! Hilarious isn't it? Or maybe it's just sad.

[Cal]

Originally posted by AFDaw@Feb 7 2004, 10:03 PM

AS - So basically you want a God who FORCES everyone to make the right choice and FORCES everyone to be nice and kind and righteous and always do good things?

I think you rejected that plan once, not sure why you would want it now.

AFD--NO, you have it wrong, if I may speak for Anti-. What we are saying is, the God YOU believe in would have to be either some kind of cosmic terrorist (that is he is in control of everything including all the evil and either causes it or choses to ignore it--and by the way there is plenty of evidence in your OT that God, himself, went around smiting people) OR he has no power to control anything. What Anti- and I are saying is WE don't believe in your kind of God, which ever way it is! Now do you get it?

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Tr2@Feb 8 2004, 07:39 AM

I blame the scumbag for what he did. I also blame the Being that created him, knowing full well that His creation would someday do what he did to that girl. How you can worship such a being is beyond me. Your god is not worthy of anyone's devotion. You should seriously consider giving the Mormon god a go.

So you are blaming God because he did not create a robot? What is your explanation for all the wonderful people God has created? Do they not count? There are a lot more good people in this world than there are murderers and rapists.

For all the good things and people in the world I say, "Good job, Jehovah!" For all the evil things and people and dogs in the world I say, "SHAME SHAME SHAME on you, Jehovah!" I also say to Jehovah, "You need to check yo' self, otherwise yo' goin' to wreck yo' self." Jehovah isn't a very good god. My god wouldn't have created beings capable of "evil" and war and strife and suffering. My god would've created oranges with zippers, and streets where little girls can walk freely without

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Feb 8 2004, 08:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Feb 8 2004, 08:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Tr2@Feb 8 2004, 07:39 AM

I blame the scumbag for what he did. I also blame the Being that created him, knowing full well that His creation would someday do what he did to that girl. How you can worship such a being is beyond me. Your god is not worthy of anyone's devotion. You should seriously consider giving the Mormon god a go.

So you are blaming God because he did not create a robot? What is your explanation for all the wonderful people God has created? Do they not count? There are a lot more good people in this world than there are murderers and rapists.

For all the good things and people in the world I say, "Good job, Jehovah!" For all the evil things and people and dogs in the world I say, "SHAME SHAME SHAME on you, Jehovah!" I also say to Jehovah, "You need to check yo' self, otherwise yo' goin' to wreck yo' self." Jehovah isn't a very good god. My god wouldn't have created beings capable of "evil" and war and strife and suffering. My god would've created oranges with zippers, and streets where little girls can walk freely without

Well, when my kids start saying the same things to me about my parenting, I just quietly pray that the Lord will give them wisdom.

When you pray for wisdom, you are given experiences which give you wisdom. The experiences are seldom sweet and nice and easy.

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 8 2004, 07:22 AM

AFD--you said: The Priesthood is not "the power to get God to do stuff for you" It's the power and authority to act in God's name. God also holds the Priesthood, so when he "heals" someone, he's doing it with the power of the Priesthood.

So if the Priesthood is NOT, as you imply, a power that benefits people, why care about it? For example, when you act in God's name, I assume you are calling on God to do something you can't do yourself. If you could do it yourself, you wouldn't need God, right? And it what God is doing for you doesn't do anything for anybody, why does it matter if anybody has it?

Before I continue, It's obvious to me you don't read well. Please point out to me where you got the idea that I said that "The Priesthood is NOT...a power that benefits people" I never stated that. I didn't even finish the rest of your post since I assumed the rest was based on the false idea that I said that the Priesthood doesn't benefit people.

As -

I don't believe in your god. I don't believe in any god for that matter.

Then why worry about "our" God?

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 8 2004, 08:09 AM

AFD--NO, you have it wrong, if I may speak for Anti-. What we are saying is, the God YOU believe in would have to be either some kind of cosmic terrorist (that is he is in control of everything including all the evil and either causes it or choses to ignore it--and by the way there is plenty of evidence in your OT that God, himself, went around smiting people) OR he has no power to control anything. What Anti- and I are saying is WE don't believe in your kind of God, which ever way it is! Now do you get it?

Ok...first off, Fine, you don't believe in our God, whatever.

Second off, I would like for you to re-read this entire thread and count how many times someone has said that God does NOT control evil nor does he make evil.

About the OT. Yes, God was a vengeful God who smote people. So what? Are you capable of loving someone and hating someone else? Are you capable of being kind to someone one minute and being mean to them the next? Wouldn't it also seem plausible that God can be capable of both love and vengence? I don't think too many here would deny that. It's not like you're pointing out something I don't already know, and accept.

And lastly, if you don't believe in our God, what are you trying to accomplish with these questions? Do you honestly think someone is going to say "Oh wow...I never thought about it like that Cal, you're right. Our God is AWFUL! THE CHURCH MUSTN'T BE TRUE!!!" Yes I'm being a little sarcastic, but I'm seriously wondering what you hope to accomplish.

[Cal]

ADF--Your quote: About the OT. Yes, God was a vengeful God who smote people. So what? Are you capable of loving someone and hating someone else? Are you capable of being kind to someone one minute and being mean to them the next? Wouldn't it also seem plausible that God can be capable of both love and vengence? I don't think too many here would deny that. It's not like you're pointing out something I don't already know, and accept.

I was kind of hoping for a God just a little bit BETTER than the run of the mill human!

As to you last paragraph----yes, as a matter of fact, that would be a very appropriate reaction.

[Cal]

AFD--as to my not quoting you correctly, here is exactly what you said, copied and pasted from Feb. 4:The Priesthood is not "the power to get God to do stuff for you" It's the power and authority to act in God's name. God also holds the Priesthood, so when he "heals" someone, he's doing it with the power of the Priesthood.

And then later you said: Please point out to me where you got the idea that I said that "The Priesthood is NOT...a power that benefits people" I never stated that.

I equated "to do good stuff for you" and "benefits people"---you sure know how to NIT PICK. If I'm not mistaken, "do good stuff" is pretty close to "benefit". Would you like to tell me what important difference there is between the two?

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Peace+Feb 8 2004, 11:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Feb 8 2004, 11:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -antishock82003@Feb 8 2004, 08:56 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Tr2@Feb 8 2004, 07:39 AM

I blame the scumbag for what he did. I also blame the Being that created him, knowing full well that His creation would someday do what he did to that girl. How you can worship such a being is beyond me. Your god is not worthy of anyone's devotion. You should seriously consider giving the Mormon god a go.

So you are blaming God because he did not create a robot? What is your explanation for all the wonderful people God has created? Do they not count? There are a lot more good people in this world than there are murderers and rapists.

For all the good things and people in the world I say, "Good job, Jehovah!" For all the evil things and people and dogs in the world I say, "SHAME SHAME SHAME on you, Jehovah!" I also say to Jehovah, "You need to check yo' self, otherwise yo' goin' to wreck yo' self." Jehovah isn't a very good god. My god wouldn't have created beings capable of "evil" and war and strife and suffering. My god would've created oranges with zippers, and streets where little girls can walk freely without

Well, when my kids start saying the same things to me about my parenting, I just quietly pray that the Lord will give them wisdom.

When you pray for wisdom, you are given experiences which give you wisdom. The experiences are seldom sweet and nice and easy.

YOU are not a god. You are a creature of your circumstances. To equate yourself with your god is, in my estimation, the height of absurdity because the two are different things all together.

So. You basically have no answer. A Kind, Loving, and Merciful god would not have done that to that girl.

AFD,

I care because I care. Did you ever address the question, btw?

[Guest Starsky]

YOU are not a god. You are a creature of your circumstances. To equate yourself with your god is, in my estimation, the height of absurdity because the two are different things all together.

Well, is a puppy a dog to be? Is a seedling of a tree, a tree to be?

Acts 17: 28

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 8 2004, 01:25 PM

AFD--as to my not quoting you correctly, here is exactly what you said,  copied and pasted from Feb. 4:The Priesthood is not "the power to get God to do stuff for you" It's the power and authority to act in God's name. God also holds the Priesthood, so when he "heals" someone, he's doing it with the power of the Priesthood.

And then later you said: Please point out to me where you got the idea that I said that "The Priesthood is NOT...a power that benefits people" I never stated that.

I equated "to do good stuff for you" and "benefits people"---you sure know how to NIT PICK.  If I'm not mistaken, "do good stuff" is pretty close to "benefit". Would you like to tell me what important difference there is between the two?

Now you're misquoting yourself. You said "the power to get God to do stuff for you" you did not say "good" in there anywhere. Nit picking? Yes I am. Regardless, it doesn't matter, because I did say that it was the ability to act in God's name, which should be implied (if you weren't nit picking either) that that would benefit people.

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Feb 8 2004, 01:31 PM

AFD,

I care because I care. Did you ever address the question, btw?

You mean the stupid question you answered for me? No...I didn't answer it. Btw...did you really need to ask if I answered it?

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 8 2004, 01:17 PM

ADF--Your quote: About the OT. Yes, God was a vengeful God who smote people. So what? Are you capable of loving someone and hating someone else? Are you capable of being kind to someone one minute and being mean to them the next? Wouldn't it also seem plausible that God can be capable of both love and vengence? I don't think too many here would deny that. It's not like you're pointing out something I don't already know, and accept.

I was kind of hoping for a God just a little bit BETTER than the run of the mill human!

As to you last paragraph----yes, as a matter of fact, that would be a very appropriate reaction.

Oh, God is a "little bit BETTER" than the rest of us. Doesn't mean he can't be capable of the same emotions.

As to what you want in our reaction, if I told you you more than likely won't get that response, would you leave? :)

Wow, so that must make you a Missionary for Atheism.

[Tr2]

For all the good things and people in the world I say, "Good job, Jehovah!" For all the evil things and people and dogs in the world I say, "SHAME SHAME SHAME on you, Jehovah!" I also say to Jehovah, "You need to check yo' self, otherwise yo' goin' to wreck yo' self." Jehovah isn't a very good god. My god wouldn't have created beings capable of "evil" and war and strife and suffering. My god would've created oranges with zippers, and streets where little girls can walk freely without

Well you'll get the chance to tell God, face to face, what you think of His ways.

BTW, in what ways to you give credit to God?

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by AFDaw+Feb 8 2004, 02:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AFDaw @ Feb 8 2004, 02:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Feb 8 2004, 01:31 PM

AFD,

I care because I care.  Did you ever address the question, btw?

You mean the stupid question you answered for me? No...I didn't answer it. Btw...did you really need to ask if I answered it?

Careful. Your husband might put you on double-top secret super duper probation. Please don't hijack the thread...if you aren't going to address the topic in an intelligent way then please don't post. If you are going to address the topic please actually answer the question.

How can a god by Loving, Kind, and Merciful and at the same time allow one of his daughters to be kidnapped, possibly raped, and then murdered?

[Guest Starsky]

How can a god by Loving, Kind, and Merciful and at the same time allow one of his daughters to be kidnapped, possibly raped, and then murdered?

Just how many times must you have this question answered?

Or are you actually waiting for us to say exactly what you want to hear...which isn't going to happen.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Tr2@Feb 8 2004, 03:44 PM

For all the good things and people in the world I say, "Good job, Jehovah!" For all the evil things and people and dogs in the world I say, "SHAME SHAME SHAME on you, Jehovah!" I also say to Jehovah, "You need to check yo' self, otherwise yo' goin' to wreck yo' self." Jehovah isn't a very good god. My god wouldn't have created beings capable of "evil" and war and strife and suffering. My god would've created oranges with zippers, and streets where little girls can walk freely without

Well you'll get the chance to tell God, face to face, what you think of His ways.

BTW, in what ways to you give credit to God?

Really? That's awesome because I'm going to let him have it. Your god stinks. The Mormon god is a little better. Which one will I be answering to?

I give your god credit for grapes. Grapes are pretty good. Except for the seeds. Those are gross.

Peace,

Super trooper. Babe. You answered the question. Great. She didn't. She doesn't answer for you and visa versa. Got it? If you have nothing substantiative to contribute to this thread go eat a twinkie.

No one has reeeeeeeeeally told me how a KIND.....LOVING.....and MERCIFUL......god could have his daughter kidnapped, possibly raped, and then murdered. Some have made excuses for whatever....but that's besides the point. Snow did a great job of being honest, actually. So did PD. I for one don't see how a god can be kind, loving, and mericful and then commit the crime that he just did....IF...the god is truly all-powerful and all-knowing.

[Tr2]

Yea, you let God have it. When it happens I hope I have a front row seat.

Are you going to answer my question? What do you give God credit for?

[Guest lt]

Antishock,

I resent that! First our god is loving and merciful or some of us wouldnt get so many chances...

secound that little girl had parents that should have been watching her..........The guy who did this lives for satans will not gods......I use to think how and why, until I realized as parents god gives us warning signs all the time....Small children should simply be watched, everyone knows whats out there now days.....come...on..!

God would be the last person I blamed, I would personaly be saying why would I leave a child to the wolves.....

[Marsha]

deleted by Marsha

[Guest Starsky]

Peace,

Super trooper. Babe. You answered the question. Great. She didn't. She doesn't answer for you and visa versa. Got it?

Got it. :)

If you have nothing substantiative to contribute to this thread go eat a twinkie.

Twinkie? Why not a steak? I hate twinkies or anything like unto them!

[Cal]

Originally posted by AFDaw+Feb 8 2004, 03:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AFDaw @ Feb 8 2004, 03:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Feb 8 2004, 01:17 PM

ADF--Your quote:  About the OT. Yes, God was a vengeful God who smote people. So what? Are you capable of loving someone and hating someone else? Are you capable of being kind to someone one minute and being mean to them the next? Wouldn't it also seem plausible that God can be capable of both love and vengence? I don't think too many here would deny that. It's not like you're pointing out something I don't already know, and accept.

I was kind of hoping for a God just a little bit BETTER than the run of the mill human!

As to you last paragraph----yes, as a matter of fact, that would be a very appropriate reaction.

Oh, God is a "little bit BETTER" than the rest of us. Doesn't mean he can't be capable of the same emotions.

As to what you want in our reaction, if I told you you more than likely won't get that response, would you leave? :)

Wow, so that must make you a Missionary for Atheism.

Your God doesn't sound one bit better than the rest of us--read your own post. He loses his temper, acts on emotion instead of rationality, and even "repents" (of having made man). Sounds like he is a lost as the rest of us.

Missionary for Atheism---just because I don't believe in YOUR God, doesn't mean I don't necessarily believe in mine.

[Tr2]

This is just one more example of athiests blaming God for the acts of man.

[Snow]

Cal,

Your lenghty reponse to me was such a mess that I couldn't follow it so I took just one part out of it to illustrate how very flawed your thinking was.

This was one of your first statements:

Cal: "He can alliviate suffering and refuses to do so on a regular basis. Oh, he does it for whom he "choses", according to mormons. Only if you are rightous enough and have the "priesthood"

Snow: I criticized it and said that is an outright falsehood and that Mormonism holds no such belief.

Cal: You responded to my criticism by saying this: " PRIESTHOOD----Exactly! Are you trying to assert that you don't need the priesthood to call god down to heal people? If not, then why all this "laying on of the hands stuff"?

and this:

Cal: "Snow--what you have mostly done here is simply make bald assertions to the contrary, not cite evidence"

Snow's followup: Like I said, your post is such a mess, I won't bother trying to follow it but I will dissect your flawed thinking on this minor point as an illustration...

You initially claimed that that God ONLY "choses" to alleviate suffering if you are righteous and have the priesthood. I correctly pointed out that is a falsehood. You responded not by refuting what I said but by asking a question. The answer to your question, even if it were the one you were looking for (which it is not) doesn't address your original false contention. Mormons do believe that through the administration of the priesthood, God may heal but that does nothing to support your false claim that suffering is alleviated ONLY for the righteous with the priesthood. Mormons believe nothing of the sort. God can and does (for all we know) intervene in the affairs of non-righteous, non-priesthood bearers all the time). Righteousness and priesthood are not requistite, in Mormonism, for God's intervention.

Obviously you understand the fallacy in your position because you turn around and say of me that all I have done to counter you is make bald assertions.

Cal, apparently you are not familiar with a few of the rules of logic. Let me give you an example. I can say that you once had mad monkey love with Janet Jackson and there is precious little you can do to disprove me. Your inability to disprove it is of little import because the burden of proof is not on you. It would be up to me to prove it.

You made a completely absurd and ignorant statement about our beliefs. I respond that I, Snow, who am more knowledgeable than you about LDS doctrine, know your statement is false. (By the way, all other Mormons here can attest that we do not believe that God ONLY alleviates suffering for righteous priesthood holders). But regardless of what I know in that regard, I also know that you cannot offer any evidence what so ever that show we believe that God alleviates ONLY the suffering of righteous priesthood holders. The very notion is absurd. We believe that God has regularly intervened in the affairs of non-priesthood holders and his actions have alleviated suffering. For example, it is a standard LDS belief that God inspired the US Constitution and that the liberty it grants has improved the lot of all-mankind, alleviating suffering caused by oppressive government and lack of freedom of religion. There, I didn't need to offer evidence because the burden is on you but I did anyway - just like I could for all your points.

Goodnight Gracie.

[Behunin]

Originally posted by Snow@Feb 8 2004, 10:14 PM

You made a completely absurd and ignorant statement about our beliefs. I respond that I, Snow, who am more knowledgeable than you about LDS doctrine, know your statement is false. (By the way, all other Mormons here can attest that we do not believe that God ONLY alleviates suffering for righteous priesthood holders). But regardless of what I know in that regard, I also know that you cannot offer any evidence what so ever that show we believe that God alleviates ONLY the suffering of righteous priesthood holders. The very notion is absurd. We believe that God has regularly intervened in the affairs of non-priesthood holders and his actions have alleviated suffering.

I am a Mormon and can also attest to what Snow has written. I will go further and attest that God, the Father and his Son, Jesus the Christ, are not full of fury and anger. That is a superficial, or natural man way of reading the scriptures; though there are several very plain scriptures in this regard such as: "Fury is not in me..." Isaiah 27:4. The one who has the anger is man; this is taught plainly in the Book of Mormon: "that which ye call anger was the truth, according to that which is in God..." 2 Nephi 1:26.

God does alleviate all suffering, but he cannot make the one suffereing accept or notice it. Lehi testified: "I have beheld his glory, and I am encircled about eternally in the arms of his love." 2 Nephi 1:15, this means he realized he was always there. Anger is rooted in fear. However, love casteth out fear, Moroni 8:16. "God is love." 1 John 4:8.

This love is already within us: "it is the love of God, which sheddeth itself abroad in the hearts of the children of men..." If not, we would literally die: "Then shall ye know that ye have seen me, that I am, and that I am the true light that is in you, and that you are in me; otherwise ye could not abound." D&C 88:50.