Kidnapping And Murder

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 9 2004, 11:34 AM

Snow---what I have actually done in our exchange here is expose a fundamental contradiction in mormon theology. You see, by getting you to admit that God does INDEED bless, favor, and heal WITHOUT the mormon priesthood being involved, you have established that Mormon Priesthood is UNNECESSARY.

Cal,

You're such a silly sort. In another thread I just saw you chide Peace for fundamental flaws in her logic and then you turn around and give us this gem of wisdom:

God acts on earth w/o the priesthood = priesthood is unnecessary.

In order for that to be true (which it isn't) at minimum 2 conditions would be necessary.

1. Priesthood's only function would be to bless, favor and heal; and

2. God could only bless, heal and favor through the priesthood.

As it turns out, neither is true according to LDS belief. God, we believe, does not require the priesthood in order to act but does use the priesthood to act as he so chooses. However it is not an exclusive arrangement. We do not limit God and believe that he acts in multitudes of ways to bring about eternal life for man both inside the Church and outside. He acted during the apostacy to prepare a way for the restoration, he has called prophets and revealed to them his plans without the vehicle of the priesthood and inspired mankind through the Holy Ghost and light of Christ. Further, the Priesthood has other functions beyond healing, blessing and favoring; effectuating the ordinances of the gospel being one of them.

You really have me scratching my head on this one. I know you come from a scientific background and therefore should have some history in logical processing but I can spot your flaws without giving them a second thought - so obivious are they. Me thinks you are so intent on finding fault in the Church that you have failed to spot the faults in your own thinking.

Hey, here's a little test - if you really believe you have a point. I think that we can both agree that PD is as logical and fair as anyone on this board. Right? Take the argument above ["admitt(ing) that God does INDEED bless, favor, and heal WITHOUT the mormon priesthood being involved, you... establish(es) that Mormon Priesthood is UNNECESSARY"] and get him to say yea or nay.

However, you needn't trouble yourself on my account. I already know the answer.

Regards,

Snow

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Feb 9 2004, 05:45 AM

You made a completely absurd and ignorant statement about our beliefs. I respond that I, Snow, who am more knowledgeable than you about LDS doctrine, know your statement is false

Doesn't he say this about each and every topic that is discussed on this board?

Absolutely not.

I know more about antimormon argument than do you but that's not saying much. There are probably a couple of posters here that know more than I do. Bat and AS and exMormon certainly have read their fair share.

I know more about LDS doctrine than Cal but probably not as much as Curvette and PD, and others who are not named.

I know a little about emergency medical care (not much) but if I was ever in horrible, bloody, extremely gory, life threatening accident, where all my bodily fluids were spurting onto the pavement, I'd call the good doctor that posts on this board. If he wasn't available I would call you and ask you to put your fine paramedic skills to work my good boy.

A great blessing in life is that I know, fairly accurately, where I peck in the pecking order.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by AFDaw+Feb 9 2004, 05:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AFDaw @ Feb 9 2004, 05:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -antishock82003@Feb 9 2004, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by -AFDaw@Feb 9 2004, 06:02 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Feb 8 2004, 04:18 PM

Careful.  Your husband might put you on double-top secret super duper probation.  Please don't hijack the thread...if you aren't going to address the topic in an intelligent way then please don't post.  If you are going to address the topic please actually answer the question.

How can a god by Loving, Kind, and Merciful and at the same time allow one of his daughters to be kidnapped, possibly raped, and then murdered?

Uhm...how about this. YOU tell me how many times it has to be answered before you are going to stop asking the SAME QUESTION over and over? 10 times? 20? Just tell me, and I'll answer it all those times so you can stop asking the question.

And seriously...it has been answered, numerous times. So maybe you need to start practicing what you preach.

You can answer it one time. Don't be afraid. We'll walk through this together. Arm in arm.

Once? It's been answered like...10 times.

FREE AGENCY Antishock. Re-read this entire thread. Don't be afraid to take that as the answer, because it is. I shouldn't have to hold your hand through your own questions.

AFD,

Free agency means nothing to me in context of the question. It's apples and oranges. Please explain to me how creating a being that will kidnap, possibly rape, and then murder an 11 year-old girl makes your god KIND, LOVING, and MERCIFUL. How are those THREE ATTRIBUTES exemplified by your god creating the situation in which his creation would do such a thing?

To blurt out a euphamism as an answer is simply a non-answer. It's a TTC...a thought terminating cliche. Possibly a non-sequitir.

Please try to answer the question. Remember, because you seem to lose the point pretty quickly, how does evil (there, I'll make it simple for you) which was created by your god, acts out while your god stands by and watches, makes your god KIND, LOVING, and MERCIFUL?

[Cal]

Snow-- first--you flatter yourself--I know every bit as much about mormon doctrine as you, and more. I just don't buy it all, hook-line and sinker like you. I know very well that mormons believe that God can act in situations that don't require the priesthood. They would like to NOT have to believe this--that way they could pretend that they are just that more special to God than others, and they often fall to the temptation anyway.

The fact of the matter is there is no good reasoning that would have one conclude that the priesthood is necessary for anything, and you haven't provided any yourself. Again you simply state that you think it is, without providing any good reasoning. You nor AFD have yet to explain your way out of your conundrum and that is: AFD, and I assume you, believe that when a person exercises the priesthood, nothing is going to happen unless God first wills it. If that is true, then why not just call on God to exercise his will?

You can assert that it is necessary, but you haven't provided a way around the question: Why do you need the priesthood if it is only exercized in according with God's will anyway?

Of course you believe god acts outside the priesthood. I didn't say you didn't, mr. strawman. What I did say was that because he does, and you believe it, there is no logic that requires the priesthood in the first place.

By the way as to your first premise, I challenge you to prove that it ISN'T true. Encompassed within bless, favor and heal is everything one can think of. And the ONLY thing you could even think of was "effectuating the ordinance of the gospel"? How is that not blessing and favoring? If the ordinances of the gospel are not a blessing and a favor (being required for your salvation) what exactly are they?

So, when you look at it closely, it is your reasoning that is faulty, not mine.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 9 2004, 07:05 PM

Snow-- first--you flatter yourself--I know every bit as much about mormon doctrine as you, and more. I just don't buy it all, hook-line and sinker like you. I know very well that mormons believe that God can act in situations that don't require the priesthood. They would like to NOT have to believe this--that way they could pretend that they are just that more special to God than others, and they often fall to the temptation anyway.

Snow-- first--you flatter yourself--I know every bit as much about mormon doctrine as you, and more.

Your continual misstatements about LDS beliefs is either from lack of knowledge or dishonesty. Personally I think your knowledge of our beliefs is very shallow but have it your way; your mistatements are not from ignorance. Note that this is not said just to make you mad. This whole thread easily shows just how badly you misrepresent our beliefs. A excellent case in point is found in your very last post:

I know very well that mormons believe that God can act in situations that don't require the priesthood. They would like to NOT have to believe this--that way they could pretend that they are just that more special to God than others, and they often fall to the temptation anyway.

Utter nonsense and pure falsehood Cal. Find me a Mormon on this board, there are hundreds, that wishes that God would not act without the priesthood so that they could pretend that they are more special than others. Everyone here knows that is a fabrication. You’re busted.

The fact of the matter is there is no good reasoning that would have one conclude that the priesthood is necessary for anything, and you haven't provided any yourself. Again you simply state that you think it is, without providing any good reasoning.

This is another reason that shows you are unaware of even the simplest of LDS doctrine. We believe that to obtain full salvation, one must participate in salvific ordinances which are effectuated through priesthood. Anyone who has a minimum of LDS education knows that yet you act as if you don’t know it. Ignorant or dishonest, whatever Cal.

Remember the issue is not whether or not you accept the same belief, but rather is it internally consistent - and it is.

You nor AFD have yet to explain your way out of your conundrum and that is: AFD, and I assume you, believe that when a person exercises the priesthood, nothing is going to happen unless God first wills it. If that is true, then why not just call on God to exercise his will?

There is no conumdrum and I just did explain it though all educated Mormons already knew it. Additionally, all educated Mormons also know the answer to your last question that one of the reasons for the exercise of the priesthood is that man is actively engaged in learing by experience and learning by experience requires experience. It is no surprize to actual Mormons that we are busy gaining knowledge through stewardship.

You can assert that it is necessary, but you haven't provided a way around the question: Why do you need the priesthood if it is only exercized in according with God's will anyway?

Logic Cal, logic. You are assuming all sorts of things with no valid reasoning. I never claimed that priesthood is ONLY exercised with God’s will.

Of course you believe god acts outside the priesthood. I didn't say you didn't, mr. strawman. What I did say was that because he does, and you believe it, there is no logic that requires the priesthood in the first place.

Sorry, I don’t know who you are arguing with here. Not me, obviously.

By the way as to your first premise, I challenge you to prove that it ISN'T true.

You challenge me to prove that what I believe. Now that’s just plain weird. I’m LDS. I told you what I believe. Accept it or not.

Encompassed within bless, favor and heal is everything one can think of. And the ONLY thing you could even think of was "effectuating the ordinance of the gospel"? How is that not blessing and favoring? If the ordinances of the gospel are not a blessing and a favor (being required for your salvation) what exactly are they?

You’re starting to dribble Cal. You have lost me. Tighten up your argument and get back to me.

BTW, I notice you are not taking me up on the little PD challenge. No surprizes there. Unless you have something useful to add, we can always agree to disagree on this one, but I will allow you the honor of the last parting shot if you wish, and I will smile in silence.

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Feb 9 2004, 07:04 PM

AFD,

Free agency means nothing to me in context of the question.  It's apples and oranges.  Please explain to me how creating a being that will kidnap, possibly rape, and then murder an 11 year-old girl makes your god KIND, LOVING, and MERCIFUL.  How are those THREE ATTRIBUTES exemplified by your god creating the situation in which his creation would do such a thing?

To blurt out a euphamism as an answer is simply a non-answer.  It's a TTC...a thought terminating cliche.  Possibly a non-sequitir. 

Please try to answer the question.  Remember, because you seem to lose the point pretty quickly, how does evil (there, I'll make it simple for you) which was created by your god, acts out while your god stands by and watches, makes your god KIND, LOVING, and MERCIFUL?

Free agency is the answer because God created a being who had the CHOICE of raping, murdering, whatever...Free agency IS the answer. He did not create a man and say "You will rape, and you will murder, and you will do horrible things" That's not how it worked. I'm sorry you don't accept that, but it's the truth. And SERIOUSLY...re-read this entire thread. All you're questions have been answered numerous times. Including this nice statement...

how does evil (there, I'll make it simple for you) which was created by your god

Try to read this Antishock...try real hard. GOD...DOES...NOT...CREATE...EVIL! He simply creates life that has their OWN FREE AGENCY to do whatever they want. SO you see...that's how a KIND, LOVING, MERCIFUL God works. He creates his children and gives them all the same blessing of free agency, regardless of whether or not they're righteous or wicked.

[Lindy]

AS~

Please explain to me how creating a being that will kidnap, possibly rape, and then murder an 11 year-old girl makes your god KIND, LOVING, and MERCIFUL.  How are those THREE ATTRIBUTES exemplified by your god creating the situation in which his creation would do such a thing?

I know you are not going to like my answer any better than you like anyone elses....but I have to type what just came to mind....

You are a daddy, a father, a creator of a life. You no doubt will (and are) teach(ing) your children what you want them to learn, also teaching them what is right and what is wrong. You see them grow into individuals before your eyes, yet you still try to instill your values and standards into them, because you want them to grow up to be decent well adjusted contributing members of our society. (correct me if I am wrong here). You are kind, loving and merciful with your children, you treat them fairly, punish when warrented and you only desire love and respect for yourself and others in return. You will be there for your children thoughout their lives, picking them up when they stumble, comforting them when they are scared, smiling at them when they make you proud.....

40-50 years down the line, years of your love, and kindness and mercy shown to your children everystep of the way, there will be some of your children who return the love and respect you have taught them and visit you in the old folks home bringing you joy and contentment in the knowledge that all your effort has paid off with the love and kindness that you had shown and taught them throughout their lives....and not only do they demonstrate to you, but they show the love and respect they have been taught to others as well. But you always wish that the son, that bucked you with every breath he took, would have listened to you like the others had...you spent extra time with him, you enlisted the help of others to spend extra time with him....to no avail.....no matter how much love you gave the child, he refused to accept or follow any teachings or advice you gave him. He did what he wanted to do with his life...you bailed him out when you could because you love your flesh and blood...you created that life, and you see part of you in things that he does, or certain looks that he gives you.....

Your other children aceive the goals they set for themselves.... They live good lives.... well adjusted, and even when the chips are down and life gets tough, you see them suffer through and help each other out. You have taught them well.

Your wayward son who had just as much love, if not more, didn't want to abide by what you taught him as a child, a teen or a young adult...well this son goes out and kidnaps, possibly rapes and murders a helpless young girl. You knew that this son had a different path he was following years ago, and you tried to steer him back to where he should be, you tried, you did all you could to raise this seed of yours the right way. Now there are some who blame you for the death of this young girl....because he is YOUR son...you should have known better...even if you had an idea of what he was capable of....you should have not let this happen. YOU ARE AT FAULT! YOU BAD PARENT!! WHAT KIND OF FATHER ARE YOU? HOW COULD YOU CREATE SUCH A PERSON AND ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN? YOU SHOULD HAVE MADE HIM LISTEN TO YOU.....WHY DIDN'T YOU MAKE HIM A GOOD PERSON? WHY, WHY, WHY!!!!???

However there are others who will jump to your defense and testify that you were the most loving, kindest and merciful father to ALL of your children that they had ever seen. You know that you loved that child with everything you had, he is your son...how could you not love your flesh and blood? Your creation? Yet look at what he did.

Should you deserve the stigma of NOT being a loving, kind, and merciful father?

Can you understand any of my insane rambling? I hope that some of it made sense to you.

[Tr2]

Absolutely not.

I know more about antimormon argument than do you but that's not saying much. There are probably a couple of posters here that know more than I do. Bat and AS and exMormon certainly have read their fair share.

I don't remember a discussion where you didn't think you knew more than I did. I still laugh when i think about the time when you knew more about medicine than I did.

If you know so much about the antimormon argument why do you always change the subject when your church is in question? When was the last time you dealt with an issue of your church, and didn't try and justify your own church's faults by pointing the finger at somebody else you don't like. It seems like whenever you get backed into a corner with an issue that you cannot defend, you turn to discussing Benny Hinn, Jimmy Swaggart, or TACF. You talk a big game but you have not proven you know anything about the anti-mormon argument, other than that you know how to change the subject quicker than anyone on this board.

If that is understanding a subject, I don't think I want to see what not having a clue looks like.

[Guest Starsky]

Kind, loving and mercifu God....l in the context of this life.

Lets define these words okay?

Kind:Of a friendly, generous, or warm-hearted nature.

Showing sympathy or understanding; charitable: a kind word.

Humane; considerate: kind to animals.

Forbearing; tolerant: Our neighbor was very kind about the window we broke.

Generous; liberal: kind words of praise.

Agreeable; beneficial: a dry climate kind to asthmatics.

So is God friendly? What would being friendly entail?

Of, relating to, or befitting a friend: friendly advice.

Favorably disposed; not antagonistic: a government friendly to our interests.

Warm; comforting.

Well is God friendly? Does He give friendly advice? Does benefit us? Is He antagonistic? Warm? Comforting?

In the context of bringing all of His children from being just spirits to becoming Gods....Is He Kind?

Well, the scriptures are friendly advice for the job to be done. The warnings, boundaries, work, and understanding and love are expounded in this advice.

He gives love to those who will accept it. This is being kind. He gives comfort to those who will accept it. This is being kind.

In the context of this work God is doing for us....it is necessary for everyone to be able to grow, progress, become strong.

This requires opposition. Here is where tolerance, patience, understanding, being generous with even the most stubborn and hard hearted of us must be included. God, in the eternal perspective of purpose, is very fair and this is being kind. No one, when they get to the other side, will be able to say....you didn't give me a chance to become a God, or finish my mission. Because those who didn't get what they needed here, will get it there.

Some will get what is fair through punishment and torment after this life, some who didn't get the good things of life, like a good and healthy body, or money, or education, or love will receive it in an abundance after this life.

I believe this is very kind. God is kind in allowing a little girl to have a great life for eleven years, and he is kind in making sure anyone who harms this little girl pays for all the evil he does on this earth. He is kind in that He is going to allow that little girl to go straight into HIS kingdom and find JOY and PEACE, and LOVE unfathomable.

I think if you asked that little girl (right now up there with Father in Heaven) if she is happy and glad to be home with Father - in - Heaven, she would say yes. I think if you ask her parents if they are glad she is safe and happy, they would say yes also.

God is Kind.

As God being loving:

Loving:

A deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward a person, such as that arising from kinship, recognition of attractive qualities, or a sense of underlying oneness.

This is God. God is love and loving. How compassionate He is when He sees suffering, because He has suffered Himself all the things we each individually have suffered and more. He has suffered what this little girl has suffered and more. But He can't allow all things to pass by the doors of His children, because we learn so much through our experience, and the experience of others.

It is hard to watch a little child learn to walk because of all the bumps, falls, frustrations...but the end result is a child who will have the power to transport itself independantly and endlessly.

It is very compassionate to stand by (especially when you have the power to intervene) and allow your children to grow at their own pace, making their own mistakes, and even hurting others of your children...who also must suffer to learn. It takes an enormous amount of being loving to endure all of this when you know you could just intervene and change it all to la la land....but...knowing it is all for the better end result....God lovingly allows us to work it out....unless His intervening brings greater spiritual good.

I once knew a women, when I was in the 4th grade, who wouldn't let her son have any bad experiences. When he didn't do good at baseball, she would take him out so that his feeling wouldn't get hurt. When he didn't have any friends, she would pay kids to play with him. If someone said something mean to him, she would come to school and yell at everyone.

This kid was the most miserable human being I have ever witnessed. His name was Micheal and all he did was cry, pout, and run home to mama, who would come back over to the school and yell at everyone.

You have to allow a chick to fight it's way out of a shell to survive and be strong...it is the principle of being lovingly tolerant in allowing your kids to do a watered down job at doing dishes, lawn care, or whatever, inorder for them to get strong and good at anything they are doing. It is loving to allow your children to learn a knife is dangerous when they disobey and get themselves cut. I guess you could make sure, like Michael's mom, that you never ever got hurt, but in reality, Michael's mom was hurting and destroying her son, more than anyone or anything in his normal environment.

It is loving of a Father-in-Heaven to allow an evil man to brutally murder a girl, so that he will be brought to be known for the devil he was, and be put away permanently. He is a loving God because this young girl is now safer, and happier than anyone can imagine.

Technology is booming and being shared in order for us as a human race to better find, protect, and save more children from this kind of evil. Progress comes from opposition, hardship, pain. Joh Walsh had to lose Adam to one of these beasts before he became the strong and successful advocate for catching the monsters and putting them away.

A loving God allows this kind of opposition for us to all move forward and become stronger, more determined....if God intervened, men would become slothful and apathetic about trying to do something themselves to help their fellowmen and women and children have a safer place to live.They would just say.....no worries...God will take care of everything and everyone....I don't have to help...God will do it all.

We would all become Michaels if God wasn't loving enough to allow us to grow and work and strife with a full purpose of heart in the face of the opposition and danger.

Merciful:

1. Full of mercy; having or exercising mercy; disposed to pity and spare offenders; unwilling to punish.

The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious. --Ex. xxxiv. 6.

Be merciful, great duke, to men of mold. --Shak.

2. Unwilling to give pain; compassionate.

A merciful man will be merciful to his beast. --Old Proverb.

God is merciful because He gives us every opportunity to do our best or worst, make mistakes, and still know that we can become better. He provides the way for us to either pay for our mistakes ourselves, or have Him pay for them. He gives us a choice. How merciful is that?

He suffered for everyone so that we could have that choice. How merciful is that. He is merciful to this little girl who was brutally murdered by giving her a wonderful reward on the other side.

How much can you do for her? What compensation can we as men give this little girl for her suffering?

Can we as a human race .... really cause this man all the pain and suffering he deserves for what he has done? God can.

[Cal]

Snow--as usual you are very good at bald assertions and some name calling, but poor at providing a counter argument laden with facts of your own. By the way, why do you need PD to do your thinking for you?

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by AFDaw@Feb 9 2004, 09:51 PM

Try to read this Antishock...try real hard. GOD...DOES...NOT...CREATE...EVIL! He simply creates life that has their OWN FREE AGENCY to do whatever they want. SO you see...that's how a KIND, LOVING, MERCIFUL God works. He creates his children and gives them all the same blessing of free agency, regardless of whether or not they're righteous or wicked.

If I showed you a passage in the Bible, which incidentally is canonized scripture, that God does indeed create Evil, would you believe otherwise?

[Behunin]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Feb 10 2004, 07:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Feb 10 2004, 07:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--AFDaw@Feb 9 2004, 09:51 PM

Try to read this Antishock...try real hard.  GOD...DOES...NOT...CREATE...EVIL!  He simply creates life that has their OWN FREE AGENCY to do whatever they want.  SO you see...that's how a KIND, LOVING, MERCIFUL God works.  He creates his children and gives them all the same blessing of free agency, regardless of whether or not they're righteous or wicked.

If I showed you a passage in the Bible, which incidentally is canonized scripture, that God does indeed create Evil, would you believe otherwise?

AS is correct. It is in Isaiah.

[AFDaw]

Yes I would like to see it.

[Behunin]

Originally posted by AFDaw@Feb 10 2004, 08:27 PM

Yes I would like to see it.

Don't be upset by this scripture AFDAW, don't read the words literally. There is a deeper message. When I get home from work I will send you this scripture, chapter and verse.

[AFDaw]

?

I promise not to get upset :)

[Guest antishock82003]

Micah 1:12

For the inhabitant of Maroth waited carefully for good: but evil came down from the LORD unto the gate of Jerusalem.

The EVIL came from the LORD.

I've got more...doyawanna see?

[AFDaw]

Give me what you got Anti :)

[Guest antishock82003]

Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by LaurelTree@Feb 8 2004, 07:31 PM

Antishock,

I resent that! First our god is loving and merciful or some of us wouldnt get so many chances...

secound that little girl had parents that should have been watching her..........The guy who did this lives for satans will not gods......I use to think how and why, until I realized as parents god gives us warning signs all the time....Small children should simply be watched, everyone knows whats out there now days.....come...on..!

God would be the last person I blamed, I would personaly be saying why would I leave a child to the wolves.....

An 11 year old child should be able to walk a few blocks in broad daylight ALONE! She should not need to be "watched" at all times by a parent or trusted adult! What happened to this little girl is pretty rare, all things considered. Your child is far more likely to be struck by lightening than to EVER be abducted and killed.

My personal feeling is that there is no god, simply mother nature working in her impersonal way, and things simply HAPPEN. For many "reasons", but mainly because of chance and happenstance and being in a certain place at any given time for something to HAPPEN, whether that be an accident, a chance encounter with a wild and/or hungry animal, a freak of weather or nature, making a poor choice of behaviour, ie; drinking and driving, being in a rage, behaving stupidly or wrecklessly, or deciding to do something dastardly and antisocial, and /or stumbling into the path of another human and falling victim to a choice THEY make, (see options above) such as that poor little girl did.

Sometimes there is no-one to "blame" for what HAPPENED, and no-one to "credit" either! And sometimes other people ARE to blame, and the rest of the time it's all OUR fault and responsibility. BTW, GOOD things also HAPPEN, don't forget that!

[AFDaw]

Is that all you have anti? I want everything before I make a reply :)

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 9 2004, 01:45 PM

AFD--you are still left with the burden of showing why the priesthood is essential to God's doing, what you have admitted, is His OWN will anyway. IOW--you ask God to do his will, He does it, end of story, right?

Why bother asking anyway? IF it is god's will that someone should die or be healed, then why would anyone ever need to ask or beseech or lay hands on them? Would'nt god just do what he willed, anyway? Or is god fickle and listens more closely to priesthood blessings? Or what? What's the point?

options:

1) Person gets sick and no-one prays for them or blesses them or in any way asks god to intervene. Person dies or gets better. God's will? Or happenstance?

2) Same scenario above, except that person recieves a priesthood blessing and/or prayers to god asking him to intervene. Dies or gets well. God's will, or because of the intervention?

The idea of obedience, that god wants us to be obedient and supplicant to him leaves me perplexed. Why would god need or want us to be obedient? Why not jsut live life being decent humans and following the golden rule and forget about any priesthood "power" if it's all up to god anway? Just live independently and responsibly and with integrity in your actions. Intent is not the way to judge a man, it is only by their ACTIONS. Why engage in futile busywork like prayers if it isn't up to us anyway and our actions can't affect a thing? I mean, if it all really is only GOD'S WILL that matters?

Eh? Am I missing something?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Feb 10 2004, 08:45 AM

I don't remember a discussion where you didn't think you knew more than I did. I still laugh when i think about the time when you knew more about medicine than I did.

That's because I probably won't be much interested in something that you know more about than I do. I recognize that you know more about, probably, a bunch of things: obviously the military, clinical emergency medicine; I have seen you give pretty solid relationship advice; your knowledge of Bible scripture is probably greater than mine; I assume there are other things as well. The issue with you is not your knowledge base Trident. In my opinion you are not a very clear thinker, not terribly rational, and are given to superstition. Half the stuff I say in opposition to you is not necessarily because I think you are wrong, but because your argumentation is so bad. Ex: You said that homosexuality is in opposition to the principles of evolution. Well, okay, I know the point you are trying to make but you leave yourself so open to criticism by the way you present it. First, I doubt you even believe in human evolution. Second, according to your line of thinking, homosexuality is no more against the principles of evolution than is a childless heterosexual. That is, it's easy to find fault in your reasoning.

When was the last time you dealt with an issue of your church, and didn't try and justify your own church's faults by pointing the finger at somebody else you don't like.

Wrong Trident. I never justify the Church's supposed faults by pointing fingers. The Church stands or falls on its own merits. I point the finger at others when I think that their tactics are unfair. By attacking unfairly, I say they leave themselves open to unfair rebuttals. Tit for Tat if you will. Make a reasonable argument and see the way I respond.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 10 2004, 05:59 PM

Snow--as usual you are very good at bald assertions and some name calling, but poor at providing a counter argument laden with facts of your own. By the way, why do you need PD to do your thinking for you?

Lookee here Cal,

You have adopted a very deliberate strategy on LDStalk that essentially consists of insulting the Church whether they deserve it or not and misrepresent the LDS position to do it. You can't very well expect no one to notice.

Besides, your complaint would have more weight if in fact I had called you any names in this thread.

[Tr2]

QUOTE

When was the last time you dealt with an issue of your church, and didn't try and justify your own church's faults by pointing the finger at somebody else you don't like.

Wrong Trident. I never justify the Church's supposed faults by pointing fingers. The Church stands or falls on its own merits. I point the finger at others when I think that their tactics are unfair. By attacking unfairly, I say they leave themselves open to unfair rebuttals. Tit for Tat if you will. Make a reasonable argument and see the way I respond.

When was the last time I came down on the leaders of the LDS church where you didn't respond by bashing a well known Christian preacher? Or is stating the fact that LDS presidents have very much lacked godly character, in many past circumstances, being unfair?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Feb 10 2004, 09:07 PM

When was the last time I came down on the leaders of the LDS church where you didn't respond by bashing a well known Christian preacher? Or is stating the fact that LDS presidents have very much lacked godly character, in many past circumstances, being unfair?

Decembers preceeded by October.

Let's be real though Trident. Regardless of your personal preference for Benny Hinn, there is quite a bit of difference between the likes of him and other TV Evangelists and significant Christian theologians. Most all TV Evangelists (them being the ones that I criticize) are laughed at by a big, big big number of the general population. Like em or not, you have acknowledge that.