Kidnapping And Murder

[Tr2]

You made a completely absurd and ignorant statement about our beliefs. I respond that I, Snow, who am more knowledgeable than you about LDS doctrine, know your statement is false

Doesn't he say this about each and every topic that is discussed on this board?

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Feb 8 2004, 04:18 PM

Careful. Your husband might put you on double-top secret super duper probation. Please don't hijack the thread...if you aren't going to address the topic in an intelligent way then please don't post. If you are going to address the topic please actually answer the question.

How can a god by Loving, Kind, and Merciful and at the same time allow one of his daughters to be kidnapped, possibly raped, and then murdered?

Uhm...how about this. YOU tell me how many times it has to be answered before you are going to stop asking the SAME QUESTION over and over? 10 times? 20? Just tell me, and I'll answer it all those times so you can stop asking the question.

And seriously...it has been answered, numerous times. So maybe you need to start practicing what you preach.

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 8 2004, 08:22 PM

Your God doesn't sound one bit better than the rest of us--read your own post. He loses his temper, acts on emotion instead of rationality, and even "repents" (of having made man). Sounds like he is a lost as the rest of us.

Cal - I'm confused. Do you believe in our God or do you not? Because if you don't, then you don't get to have an opinion on what's he's like. Because to you, he doesn't exist. You keep going back and forth, one second he's not there, the next he's there and he's mean. When you come to a final conclusion, let me know and we'll continue from there.

[Cal]

AFD--and now you know WHY I don't think he exists!

[AFDaw]

So then your opinion on our God is completely Null and Void.

Thanks for clearing that up :)

[Cal]

Snow---what I have actually done in our exchange here is expose a fundamental contradiction in mormon theology. You see, by getting you to admit that God does INDEED bless, favor, and heal WITHOUT the mormon priesthood being involved, you have established that Mormon Priesthood is UNNECESSARY. The contradiction occurs because, on the one hand mormons believe that god will intervene when he sees a need, anywhere, anytime and anyplace. Yet, in the same breath, mormons feel perfectly free to assert that without their priesthood God is somehow limited and that mormon priesthood holders have some special influence on God, that others don't have. You example serves to show that God does what he likes, when he likes, and how he likes. So, how does this priesthood matter? Does holding this priesthood change god's mind, getting him to do things he would otherwise not do? Does god "hear" better the prayer of someone holding the mormon priesthood? If so, then why do non-priesthood holders seem to get his "ear" just fine--as you have so firmly asserted?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 9 2004, 11:24 AM

AFD--and now you know WHY I don't think he exists!

So you don't have any say so on how God handles the world...because in your opinion...HE DOESN"T because HE DOESN"T EXIST.

END OF THREAD as far as CAL is concerned.

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 9 2004, 11:34 AM

Snow---what I have actually done in our exchange here is expose a fundamental contradiction in mormon theology. You see,  by getting you to admit that God does INDEED bless, favor, and heal WITHOUT the mormon priesthood being involved, you have established that Mormon Priesthood is UNNECESSARY.  The contradiction occurs because, on the one hand mormons believe that god will intervene when he sees a need, anywhere, anytime and anyplace.  Yet, in the same breath, mormons feel perfectly free to assert that without their priesthood God is somehow limited and that mormon priesthood holders have some special influence on God, that others don't have. You example serves to show that God does what he likes, when he likes, and how he likes. So, how does this priesthood matter? Does holding this priesthood change god's mind, getting him to do things he would otherwise not do? Does god "hear" better the prayer of someone holding the mormon priesthood? If so, then why do non-priesthood holders seem to get his "ear" just fine--as you have so firmly asserted?

First off, you don't accept our simple basic beliefs, so how in the world can you accept our more complex beliefs?

Second off, I don't think you understand how the Priesthood works. Let me try to explain it.

Say you (as in someone without the priesthood) have a sick child and you want to call upon your God to heal your child. So you pray and you ask your God to heal them and they do. Your child was healed without YOU using the priesthood.

Now say my child is sick, and my husband, who holds the priesthood, goes to heal the child. Firstly, he doesn't need to ask God to heal him, he has that power to act in God's name. So my husband would heal my child, WITH the priesthood, without asking God to do it, but being sure to give credit where credit is due, which is through Christ. (Moses is a prime example of using the priesthood but doing it incorrectly). Now, this is not to say that Priesthood holders go around asking for miracles, because while my husband is in prayer, he needs to be listening to the promptings of the spirit to see if healing our child is even God's will. And if he feels that it isn't, then he can't heal him. Because the Priesthood may be the authority and power to act in God's name, but it's also to do God's will. Just like if you were praying for your child to be healed and he wasn't, then it wasn't in your God's will either.

God will do things without us having to use the Priesthood...but God IS the priesthood. If it's God's will, he's going to do it. You haven't exposed a "fundamental contradiction in mormon theology" all you've done is exposed that you don't understand how it works.

[Cal]

So, your husband can heal the child, with or without god's intervention. Too bad, the priesthood doesn't work very well---lots of people get sick and die, inspite of priesthood blessings and in fact, when people recover after a priesthood blessing, can you show that the healing is anymore likely than a recovery without it? And miraculous recoveries seem to happen all over, without the mormon priesthood.

Also, I often hear church leaders justify the fact that the priesthood failed to heal someone by saying, "Well, it was just not God's will". If your husband has the power to heal WITHOUT God's intervention, then how come God seems to intervene ANYWAY?

It sounds to me like it is really YOU that doesn't understand the mormon priesthood. Can you blame me for not understanding it too?

[AFDaw]

*sigh* Did you even read what I wrote?

So, your husband can heal the child, with or without god's intervention.  Too bad, the priesthood doesn't work very well---lots of people get sick and die, inspite of priesthood blessings and in fact, when people recover after a priesthood blessing, can you show that the healing is anymore likely than a recovery without it? And miraculous recoveries seem to happen all over, without the mormon priesthood.

I said that my husband could heal my child IF and ONLY IF if is God's will. The Priesthood is not the ability to have our will be done, but the Lord's will. And like I said, the Priestholder has to listen to the promptings of the Spirit to make sure that they are doing the Lord's will. So yes...tons of people get sick and die...oh well. It's not the Lord's will that everyone be healthy and immortal. Not only that, but what's to say EVERY Priesthood blessing is asking for someone to be healed? My mom had lumps in her breast and her blessing wasn't she would be cured, but that she would find comfort and peace of heart in what was going on. PLUS Priesthood blessings are only as strong as the faith that's placed in them. I can't ask for a blessing for my upcoming delivery and not have faith in it and expect everything to go accroding to the blessing I received. Once again, you're running full speed here when you can't even crawl. As far as people being healed without using the Priesthood...please READ what I wrote again.

I said...

God will do things without us having to use the Priesthood...but God IS the priesthood. If it's God's will, he's going to do it.

So wouldn't it seem you're stating what I already stated?

Also, I often hear church leaders justify the fact that the priesthood failed to heal someone by saying, "Well, it was just not God's will".  If your husband has the power to heal WITHOUT God's intervention, then how come God seems to intervene ANYWAY?

This doesn't make sense to me. I said my husband has the power to act in God's name. Not to heal anyone he wants. Again, see my previous paragraph. And no, if my husband uses the Priesthood to heal my child and it's God's will, then no...he will not intervene because there is no need to.

It sounds to me like it is really YOU that doesn't understand the mormon priesthood. Can you blame me for not understanding it too?

Just because YOU don't understand it doesn't mean I don't. Try not to confuse the too.

[Cal]

AFD--your beliefs are contradictory. You say that God will only heal your child, if he wants to. Your husband has to "be in tune" with the Spirit. That is saying that your husband's request to have your child healed must conform to God's will, right? So, why not just ask God to do HIS will? What's with all the priesthood and the laying on of hands and the whole formality? Just ask God to heal your child. IF it is his WILL he will do it, if it is not HE WON'T. Why the priesthood? God either wants the child healed or he doesn't, right?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 9 2004, 01:05 PM

AFD--your beliefs are contradictory. You say that God will only heal your child, if he wants to. Your husband has to "be in tune" with the Spirit. That is saying that your husband's request to have your child healed must conform to God's will, right? So, why not just ask God to do HIS will? What's with all the priesthood and the laying on of hands and the whole formality? Just ask God to heal your child. IF it is his WILL he will do it, if it is not HE WON'T. Why the priesthood? God either wants the child healed or he doesn't, right?

I have to agree with Cal, the priesthood holder must ask that the will of the Lord be done...but I have seen (like in the case of my father having a heart attack) where the Lord specifically requested the priesthood holder to commend my father's soul to God and the priesthood holder refused and gave him a blessing of healing to please my mother.

So...priesthood holders, when giving blessings, must listen to the voice of inspiration because the Lord will dictate what is to be said and given in the blessing...and if the priesthood holders would do this...there would never be a blessing given which was not fulfilled to the letter...

Because:

D&C 1: 38

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

So the question is this: When one is using the priesthood...is he serving God? or himself?

If he is listening to the Spirit and doing and saying exactly what the Lord wants him to say...he is the Lord's servant. When he is speaking from his own desires and ignores the promptings of the Spirit, or worse yet, can't hear any promptings....then he is on his own and nothing he does is going to have any power or effect.

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 9 2004, 01:05 PM

AFD--your beliefs are contradictory. You say that God will only heal your child, if he wants to. Your husband has to "be in tune" with the Spirit. That is saying that your husband's request to have your child healed must conform to God's will, right? So, why not just ask God to do HIS will? What's with all the priesthood and the laying on of hands and the whole formality?  Just ask God to heal your child. IF it is his WILL he will do it, if it is not HE WON'T.  Why the priesthood?  God either wants the child healed or he doesn't, right?

Again, just because you don't get it doesn't mean that my beliefs are contradictory. You see, because you don't believe in our God, nor the Priesthood, nor our beliefs...then can you honestly think you'll EVER understand any of it?

It's all about obedience. God has ALL these blessings he wants to give us. (And by us I mean everyone living on this Earth) And he doesn't need a single person to bend down on their knees and to pray to him to do his will. If God truly wants it done, he will do it. Do you think you even need to pray to God to tell him your child is sick and you want him healed? Don't you think God already knows that? It isn't like you're opening God's eyes to what's going on, he knows. But simply, by obedying him, and asking for his help (in prayer) or by a Priesthood holder laying his hands on a sick child's head, you're being obedient to what God has asked. And that's simply that we ask for his help. That we put our faith in him. It's that simple.

[Cal]

Peace--so we agree that it is all really in the hands of God, and not the person doing the asking? Wow--we agreed on something!

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by Peace@Feb 9 2004, 01:34 PM

I have to agree with Cal, the priesthood holder must ask that the will of the Lord be done...but I have seen (like in the case of my father having a heart attack) where the Lord specifically requested the priesthood holder to commend my father's soul to God and the priesthood holder refused and gave him a blessing of healing to please my mother.

So...priesthood holders, when giving blessings, must listen to the voice of inspiration because the Lord will dictate what is to be said and given in the blessing...and if the priesthood holders would do this...there would never be a blessing given which was not fulfilled to the letter...

Because:

D&C 1: 38

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

So the question is this: When one is using the priesthood...is he serving God? or himself?

If he is listening to the Spirit and doing and saying exactly what the Lord wants him to say...he is the Lord's servant. When he is speaking from his own desires and ignores the promptings of the Spirit, or worse yet, can't hear any promptings....then he is on his own and nothing he does is going to have any power or effect.

I am confused Peace. I said basically everything you just posted.

Here...

Now, this is not to say that Priesthood holders go around asking for miracles, because while my husband is in prayer, he needs to be listening to the promptings of the spirit to see if healing our child is even God's will. And if he feels that it isn't, then he can't heal him.

and again here...

I said that my husband could heal my child IF and ONLY IF if is God's will. The Priesthood is not the ability to have our will be done, but the Lord's will. And like I said, the Priestholder has to listen to the promptings of the Spirit to make sure that they are doing the Lord's will.

[Cal]

AFD--you are still left with the burden of showing why the priesthood is essential to God's doing, what you have admitted, is His OWN will anyway. IOW--you ask God to do his will, He does it, end of story, right?

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 9 2004, 01:45 PM

AFD--you are still left with the burden of showing why the priesthood is essential to God's doing, what you have admitted, is His OWN will anyway. IOW--you ask God to do his will, He does it, end of story, right?

I don't have to prove anything. If you're happy living in ignorance, then I'm happy for you as well :)

[Cal]

AFD----so, no logical response? All you have left is to call me ignorant? I'll mark that one down as a victory for reason. :)

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Tr2@Feb 8 2004, 07:28 PM

Yea, you let God have it. When it happens I hope I have a front row seat.

Are you going to answer my question? What do you give God credit for?

I told you already, I give It credit for grapes....sheez.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by AFDaw+Feb 9 2004, 06:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AFDaw @ Feb 9 2004, 06:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Feb 8 2004, 04:18 PM

Careful.  Your husband might put you on double-top secret super duper probation.  Please don't hijack the thread...if you aren't going to address the topic in an intelligent way then please don't post.  If you are going to address the topic please actually answer the question.

How can a god by Loving, Kind, and Merciful and at the same time allow one of his daughters to be kidnapped, possibly raped, and then murdered?

Uhm...how about this. YOU tell me how many times it has to be answered before you are going to stop asking the SAME QUESTION over and over? 10 times? 20? Just tell me, and I'll answer it all those times so you can stop asking the question.

And seriously...it has been answered, numerous times. So maybe you need to start practicing what you preach.

You can answer it one time. Don't be afraid. We'll walk through this together. Arm in arm.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Feb 9 2004, 04:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Feb 9 2004, 04:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -AFDaw@Feb 9 2004, 06:02 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Feb 8 2004, 04:18 PM

Careful.  Your husband might put you on double-top secret super duper probation.  Please don't hijack the thread...if you aren't going to address the topic in an intelligent way then please don't post.  If you are going to address the topic please actually answer the question.

How can a god by Loving, Kind, and Merciful and at the same time allow one of his daughters to be kidnapped, possibly raped, and then murdered?

Uhm...how about this. YOU tell me how many times it has to be answered before you are going to stop asking the SAME QUESTION over and over? 10 times? 20? Just tell me, and I'll answer it all those times so you can stop asking the question.

And seriously...it has been answered, numerous times. So maybe you need to start practicing what you preach.

You can answer it one time. Don't be afraid. We'll walk through this together. Arm in arm.

Antishock, how does your God allow this to happen? Maybe you could tell us that, and we can compare and contrast Gods.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Jenda+Feb 9 2004, 04:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Feb 9 2004, 04:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -antishock82003@Feb 9 2004, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by -AFDaw@Feb 9 2004, 06:02 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Feb 8 2004, 04:18 PM

Careful.  Your husband might put you on double-top secret super duper probation.  Please don't hijack the thread...if you aren't going to address the topic in an intelligent way then please don't post.  If you are going to address the topic please actually answer the question.

How can a god by Loving, Kind, and Merciful and at the same time allow one of his daughters to be kidnapped, possibly raped, and then murdered?

Uhm...how about this. YOU tell me how many times it has to be answered before you are going to stop asking the SAME QUESTION over and over? 10 times? 20? Just tell me, and I'll answer it all those times so you can stop asking the question.

And seriously...it has been answered, numerous times. So maybe you need to start practicing what you preach.

You can answer it one time. Don't be afraid. We'll walk through this together. Arm in arm.

Antishock, how does your God allow this to happen? Maybe you could tell us that, and we can compare and contrast Gods.

My god isn't very powerful. He's just a jolly 'ol elf that gives presents and coal away. I don't believe in Trident's god, and I don't believe in your god. Although, if your god existed he would be a much nicer god than Trident's god.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 9 2004, 01:38 PM

Peace--so we agree that it is all really in the hands of God, and not the person doing the asking? Wow--we agreed on something!

Unreal huh? :)

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 9 2004, 03:10 PM

AFD----so, no logical response? All you have left is to call me ignorant? I'll mark that one down as a victory for reason. :)

You're right, I'm sorry Cal. The logical response would have been this.

So you want me to prove to you, who doesn't believe in our church, nor our God, why our God has in place a Priesthood (which you don't believe in) and why it's essential to us, who you don't believe in either. Is that right? I'm sorry, I don't see a point to prove 2+2=4 if you don't even believe in Math. So I don't have to prove anything to anyone, especially you.

btw...I didn't call you ignorant, I said you were living in ignorance.

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Feb 9 2004, 04:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Feb 9 2004, 04:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -AFDaw@Feb 9 2004, 06:02 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Feb 8 2004, 04:18 PM

Careful.  Your husband might put you on double-top secret super duper probation.  Please don't hijack the thread...if you aren't going to address the topic in an intelligent way then please don't post.  If you are going to address the topic please actually answer the question.

How can a god by Loving, Kind, and Merciful and at the same time allow one of his daughters to be kidnapped, possibly raped, and then murdered?

Uhm...how about this. YOU tell me how many times it has to be answered before you are going to stop asking the SAME QUESTION over and over? 10 times? 20? Just tell me, and I'll answer it all those times so you can stop asking the question.

And seriously...it has been answered, numerous times. So maybe you need to start practicing what you preach.

You can answer it one time. Don't be afraid. We'll walk through this together. Arm in arm.

Once? It's been answered like...10 times.

FREE AGENCY Antishock. Re-read this entire thread. Don't be afraid to take that as the answer, because it is. I shouldn't have to hold your hand through your own questions.