Kidnapping And Murder

[Cal]

Originally posted by Snow+Feb 10 2004, 08:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Feb 10 2004, 08:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Feb 10 2004, 05:59 PM

Snow--as usual you are very good at bald assertions and some name calling, but poor at providing a counter argument laden with facts of your own. By the way, why do you need PD to do your thinking for you?

Lookee here Cal,

You have adopted a very deliberate strategy on LDStalk that essentially consists of insulting the Church whether they deserve it or not and misrepresent the LDS position to do it. You can't very well expect no one to notice.

Besides, your complaint would have more weight if in fact I had called you any names in this thread.

You continue to provide more arrogance than facts.

When you have to say things like "You are a silly sort" and "You're starting to dribble" you leave little doubt that you are plumb out of intelligent things to say. You say I misrepresent what mormons believe, but yet that is all you say. You provide little evidence that what I have said doesn't hold true in the eyes of a substantial number of mormons.

Of course I will readily admit that what I have attributed to some (or many) will never be true of ALL mormons. As I have often said, mormonism suffers from a lack of an agreed upon theology. However, there are things that are commonly agreed upon by large numbers of mormons, including many on this thread, and that is what I have been responding to---statements made on this thread.

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Feb 6 2004, 08:16 AM

A little girl was kidnapped in Florida on Sunday. Her body was found behind a church today or yesterday. She was probably raped. She probably suffered greatly in her last hours alive. How could a just, loving, merciful God allow such a thing to happen?

Antishock,

I just popped in. I haven't read the thread accept for the first post. You wonder how a just God could allow such a horrible thing. Which do you prefer; a just God who allows such things or no God where everything goes and no justice or rewards are met in an afterlife?

What do you think has become of that little girl?

Paul O

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Feb 10 2004, 07:42 PM

Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Antishock,

The KJV can kiss my ___. Your little tricks won't work with me. Remember, I'm way too smart to fall for your tricks.

I prefer other Bible versions:

I am the one who creates the light and makes the darkness. I am the one who sends good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.

NLT Copyright 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.' NKJV Copyright 1982 Thomas Nelson

The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

NASB copyright 1995 Lockman Foundation

I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things. RSV

Paul O

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 10 2004, 10:09 PM

You continue to provide more arrogance than facts.

When you have to say things like "You are a silly sort" and "You're starting to dribble" you leave little doubt that you are plumb out of intelligent things to say. You say I misrepresent what mormons believe, but yet that is all you say. You provide little evidence that what I have said doesn't hold true in the eyes of a substantial number of mormons.

Of course I will readily admit that what I have attributed to some (or many) will never be true of ALL mormons. As I have often said, mormonism suffers from a lack of an agreed upon theology. However, there are things that are commonly agreed upon by large numbers of mormons, including many on this thread, and that is what I have been responding to---statements made on this thread.

Cal,

How on earth can you object to being called a silly sort when this is what you post:

You said: ""He can alliviate suffering and refuses to do so on a regular basis. Oh, he does it for whom he "choses", according to mormons. Only if you are rightous enough and have the "priesthood"

I said: No that's not what we believe.

You said: That's a bald assertion.

Tell me that is not silly. You misrepresent our beliefs (any Mormon in the world can tell you that we believe God blesses people who are not righteous holders - and I gave examples), I correct you about what I/we believe and you retort that I am baldly asserting what I/we believe - as if I am not qualified to say what I/we believe.

That's silly. You're silly. You want to be taken seriously but then say stuff like that.

Tell you what. You find a single Mormon (out of the hundreds and hundreds who belong to LDSTalk) who thinks that God refuses to bless those who are rigtheous priesthood holders and I will stop thinking that you are silly.

Burden of proof my boy. You are the one who is asserting and asserting an unlikely thing at that. Didn't they learn you nothing at science class. Burden of proof.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Snow+Feb 11 2004, 03:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Feb 11 2004, 03:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Feb 10 2004, 10:09 PM

You continue to provide more arrogance than facts.

When you have to say things like "You are a silly sort" and "You're starting to dribble" you leave little doubt that you are plumb out of intelligent things to say. You say I misrepresent what mormons believe, but yet that is all you say. You provide little evidence that what I have said doesn't hold true in the eyes of a substantial number of mormons.

Of course I will readily admit that what I have attributed to some (or many) will never be true of ALL mormons. As I have often said, mormonism suffers from a lack of an agreed upon theology. However, there are things that are commonly agreed upon by large numbers of mormons, including many on this thread, and that is what I have been responding to---statements made on this thread.

Cal,

How on earth can you object to being called a silly sort when this is what you post:

You said: ""He can alliviate suffering and refuses to do so on a regular basis. Oh, he does it for whom he "choses", according to mormons. Only if you are rightous enough and have the "priesthood"

I said: No that's not what we believe.

You said: That's a bald assertion.

Tell me that is not silly. You misrepresent our beliefs (any Mormon in the world can tell you that we believe God blesses people who are not righteous holders - and I gave examples), I correct you about what I/we believe and you retort that I am baldly asserting what I/we believe - as if I am not qualified to say what I/we believe.

That's silly. You're silly. You want to be taken seriously but then say stuff like that.

Tell you what. You find a single Mormon (out of the hundreds and hundreds who belong to LDSTalk) who thinks that God refuses to bless those who are rigtheous priesthood holders and I will stop thinking that you are silly.

Burden of proof my boy. You are the one who is asserting and asserting an unlikely thing at that. Didn't they learn you nothing at science class. Burden of proof.

Yes, a bald assertion is exactly what you made. You simply denied the truth of my statement without any support. You didn't cite any authority for your answer, nor any actual reasoning, you just said that I was silly for saying it. THAT is a bald assertion.

You need more substance? I thought you would be able to see that what I have said is true on its face! When some people call upon God to heal their child with the priesthood, the child dies anyway. Could God have healed the child? Of course, but he REFUSED to do so! Nevertheless, mormons continue to assert that the priesthood is the power to, among other things, heal the sick. It should be obvious to anyone that the priesthood is not what does the healing, it is the will of God. BUT, many mormons continue to assert the the priesthood is necessary for healing. It seems much more logical, in light of what we actually observe, that God heals who he choses, with or without the mormon priesthood. How much clearer do I have to make it? And you call ME silly?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 11 2004, 05:51 PM

Yes, a bald assertion is exactly what you made. You simply denied the truth of my statement without any support. You didn't cite any authority for your answer, nor any actual reasoning, you just said that I was silly for saying it. THAT is a bald assertion.

I told you what I, an orthodox Mormon, believes. How much more of an authority can you get on what I believe?

Nevertheless, mormons continue to assert that the priesthood is the power to, among other things, heal the sick.

Well if you're going to change your argument, then go ahead. That is not what you originally asserted. Do you want me to provide the direct quote?

[Guest bat]

Snow = Orthodox Mormon?

That's the funniest thing I've heard all day.

[Cal]

Snow--I wasn't particularly interested in what YOU believed. I think I know that. I was refering to what many mormons believe. And Yes, I'm sure you are quite an authority on what YOU personally believe. I'm talking about someone who can speak for large numbers of mormons.

No matter how YOU read my postings, hopefully you now understand what I was saying.

[Snow]

Cal,

I know exactly what you mean/meant. I am telling you that I am Mormon I know what I, as a TBM and orthodox Mormon - like the other orthodox Mormons- believe.

You said this:

"He (the Mormon God) apparently couldn't give a rat's ____ about the kid next door who just died of cancer."

Find me one single believing Mormon, out of the millions that believe, that think that about God. Just one Cal. Find me a single Mormon that accepts you characterization of our idea of God. Just one.

Only one. Go on. One.

[Guest Starsky]

Nevertheless, mormons continue to assert that the priesthood is the power to, among other things, heal the sick.

The priesthood is the power of pure love of Christ. Those Christ's pure love/charity can and will heal.

[Guest Starsky]

I guess that said it all.

[Cal]

Peace--it's difficult to have faith in something whose effects are as inconsistent and indiscriminate at the healing power of the priesthood. Sometimes it works , sometimes it doesn't. Seems to coincide quite nicely with what happens ANYWAY. Some people recover from deadly diseases, some don't.

[Guest antishock82003]

Snow an "orthodox" Mormon....hmm.....doesn't really fit...nope...doesn't feeeeeeeel right. Lesseeeee....ah, got it...Snow is an "Orthodox Internet Mormon Apologist". What is an OIMA?

An OIMA believes FAIR, FARMS, and Huge Nibbler before he does his own prophets and scriptures. Aaaaaaaahh...the power of the Apologist!

[Snow]

AS,

Off hand, I cannot think of a single doctrinal position on which my belief is not orthodox. Obviously you can. What?

[Lindy]

antishock82003~~~~~

Hey boy....any answer to my short story for you on page 9 of this thread?..I at least tried to answer the best I could to the topic at hand...

Did you at least read it?

Least you could do is tell me to blow it out my ear....

[Guest antishock82003]

A response for L:

You are kind, loving and merciful with your children, you treat them fairly, punish when warranted and you only desire love and respect for yourself and others in return. You will be there for your children throughout their lives, picking them up when they stumble, comforting them when they are scared, smiling at them when they make you proud.....

I'm human. I do the best I can. Sometimes I think I'm fair, other times I know I'm not. But yes, I try to love them, discipline them, etc...I would never murder one of them to teach them a lesson, or to teach the other one a lesson. That idea is beyond preposterous to me...no, actually, it's sick.

Your wayward son who had just as much love, if not more, didn't want to abide by what you taught him as a child, a teen or a young adult...well this son goes out and kidnaps, possibly rapes and murders a helpless young girl.

If that would be the case, I'd be the first in line to pull the handle at the electric chair. No one has a right to do that to another human being.

You knew that this son had a different path he was following years ago, and you tried to steer him back to where he should be, you tried, you did all you could to raise this seed of yours the right way. Now there are some who blame you for the death of this young girl....because he is YOUR son...you should have known better...even if you had an idea of what he was capable of....you should have not let this happen. YOU ARE AT FAULT! YOU BAD PARENT!! WHAT KIND OF FATHER ARE YOU? HOW COULD YOU CREATE SUCH A PERSON AND ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN? YOU SHOULD HAVE MADE HIM LISTEN TO YOU.....WHY DIDN'T YOU MAKE HIM A GOOD PERSON? WHY, WHY, WHY!!!!???

But see...you're trying to equate me with God. I BEGETTED a child...I didn't create him. I sired an offspring, but had no control over the fundamental nature of his being...his inherent makeup. Your god, formed him as a spirit. Your god has perfect knowledge of the past, present, and future. All of your god's actions are already known to him. So. If one of his kids rapes and murders someone, then your god knew that what he was creating would do that right from the get-go. There is no mystery with an all-knowing deity. He knows exactly what he's doing. He knows exactly what his creations will do from the moment they're created until the moment they're uncreated (if your god chooses to uncreate them). THAT'S the difference. Everything has the potential to be surprising to me...whereas nothing is surprising to your god. He's responsible for that murderer’s creation, environment, and actions because your god had to know exactly what he was doing when he created the murderer. That's if you believe your god is all knowing...

Can you understand any of my insane rambling? I hope that some of it made sense to you.

Of course I understand where you're coming from, but unfortunately it appears you're incapable of either understanding what I'm saying, or you're unwilling to acknowledge it. Probably the latter. It's too dangerous for your mind to accept the inherent unfairness of your faith.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 12 2004, 07:09 PM

Peace--it's difficult to have faith in something whose effects are as inconsistent and indiscriminate at the healing power of the priesthood. Sometimes it works , sometimes it doesn't. Seems to coincide quite nicely with what happens ANYWAY. Some people recover from deadly diseases, some don't.

The priesthood is consistent...it is the men who hold it that aren't. Haven't you read D&C 121:35 on .... yet? it tells you why some have good results and others don't. the inconsistencies are all about the men who hold the priesthood.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Peace+Feb 15 2004, 06:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Feb 15 2004, 06:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Feb 12 2004, 07:09 PM

Peace--it's difficult to have faith in something whose effects are as inconsistent and indiscriminate at the healing power of the priesthood. Sometimes it works , sometimes it doesn't. Seems to coincide quite nicely with what happens ANYWAY. Some people recover from deadly diseases, some don't.

The priesthood is consistent...it is the men who hold it that aren't. Haven't you read D&C 121:35 on .... yet? it tells you why some have good results and others don't. the inconsistencies are all about the men who hold the priesthood.

Well, that makes it easy for ya...just blame it on the poor schlub. Yeah, your kid died because of you...you doubted. It's your fault. God loves you. Sheez.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Feb 15 2004, 07:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Feb 15 2004, 07:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Peace@Feb 15 2004, 06:14 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Feb 12 2004, 07:09 PM

Peace--it's difficult to have faith in something whose effects are as inconsistent and indiscriminate at the healing power of the priesthood. Sometimes it works , sometimes it doesn't. Seems to coincide quite nicely with what happens ANYWAY. Some people recover from deadly diseases, some don't.

The priesthood is consistent...it is the men who hold it that aren't. Haven't you read D&C 121:35 on .... yet? it tells you why some have good results and others don't. the inconsistencies are all about the men who hold the priesthood.

Well, that makes it easy for ya...just blame it on the poor schlub. Yeah, your kid died because of you...you doubted. It's your fault. God loves you. Sheez.

Actually, there is no way to explain how the priesthood works to you. It is something one has to feel, and gain .... something you will never be able to do. So if I were you, since it really has nothing to do with you...I would just forget about it. B)

[Marsha]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Feb 15 2004, 06:59 PM

Your wayward son who had just as much love, if not more, didn't want to abide by what you taught him as a child, a teen or a young adult...well this son goes out and kidnaps, possibly rapes and murders a helpless young girl.

If that would be the case, I'd be the first in line to pull the handle at the electric chair. No one has a right to do that to another human being.

AS.

Tell me how that isn't doing the same thing? Murder is Murder. Doesn't matter whether it is a "handle" on an electric chair to pull or a "trigger" on a gun.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Marsha

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Peace+Feb 15 2004, 11:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Feb 15 2004, 11:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -antishock82003@Feb 15 2004, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by -Peace@Feb 15 2004, 06:14 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Feb 12 2004, 07:09 PM

Peace--it's difficult to have faith in something whose effects are as inconsistent and indiscriminate at the healing power of the priesthood. Sometimes it works , sometimes it doesn't. Seems to coincide quite nicely with what happens ANYWAY. Some people recover from deadly diseases, some don't.

The priesthood is consistent...it is the men who hold it that aren't. Haven't you read D&C 121:35 on .... yet? it tells you why some have good results and others don't. the inconsistencies are all about the men who hold the priesthood.

Well, that makes it easy for ya...just blame it on the poor schlub. Yeah, your kid died because of you...you doubted. It's your fault. God loves you. Sheez.

Actually, there is no way to explain how the priesthood works to you. It is something one has to feel, and gain .... something you will never be able to do. So if I were you, since it really has nothing to do with you...I would just forget about it. B)

I'm sorry, I forgot that I held the "priesthood" for nearly 20 years. Pray tell, how exactly would a WOMAN know what the priesthood "feels like" and "how to gain"? I think it's sick that you think some guy's kid died because he didn't have enough faith in his "power of the priesthood". Absolutely disgusting.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Feb 16 2004, 05:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Feb 16 2004, 05:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Peace@Feb 15 2004, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by -antishock82003@Feb 15 2004, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by -Peace@Feb 15 2004, 06:14 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Feb 12 2004, 07:09 PM

Peace--it's difficult to have faith in something whose effects are as inconsistent and indiscriminate at the healing power of the priesthood. Sometimes it works , sometimes it doesn't. Seems to coincide quite nicely with what happens ANYWAY. Some people recover from deadly diseases, some don't.

The priesthood is consistent...it is the men who hold it that aren't. Haven't you read D&C 121:35 on .... yet? it tells you why some have good results and others don't. the inconsistencies are all about the men who hold the priesthood.

Well, that makes it easy for ya...just blame it on the poor schlub. Yeah, your kid died because of you...you doubted. It's your fault. God loves you. Sheez.

Actually, there is no way to explain how the priesthood works to you. It is something one has to feel, and gain .... something you will never be able to do. So if I were you, since it really has nothing to do with you...I would just forget about it. B)

I'm sorry, I forgot that I held the "priesthood" for nearly 20 years. Pray tell, how exactly would a WOMAN know what the priesthood "feels like" and "how to gain"? I think it's sick that you think some guy's kid died because he didn't have enough faith in his "power of the priesthood". Absolutely disgusting.

Aparently, twenty years of holding a title didn't do much for your understanding. Like it says in D&C 121...amen to the priesthood and authority of that man....so you probably didn't really hold anything but the title....or you have forgotten it all.

And I do know there is forgetting when evil take your heart.

You saying you had twenty years to be taught all these things you are asking....tells me that you never experienced this:

D&C 121:

45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy cconfidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant acompanion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of brighteousness and truth; and thy cdominion• shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.

[Guest antishock82003]

Gee. If you want to call someone "evil" Peace, let's remember that only one of us is on medication, and it ain't me.

As a woman, your opinion holds no weight with me regarding the priesthood. It's not your area of expertise or responsiblity. You can never possibly know the power of weilding the priesthood and the supreme burden of possessing God's omnipotence at your fingertips! MWAHAAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!! Your female mind is inherently at a disadvantage to understand the glory and sheer voltage that comes with the super powerful priesthood. Get thee behind me, womyn for thou didst eat of the fruit and thou didst tempt Man to disobey God. You shall forever be subordinate to MAN!!!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!!!

BTW, your sick disgusting position that it's a man's fault if he holds the priesthood and his kid dies due to his lack of faith only illuminates your ignorance and ill thinking regarding this topic.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Feb 16 2004, 12:51 PM

Gee.  If you want to call someone "evil" Peace, let's remember that only one of us is on medication, and it ain't me.

As a woman, your opinion holds no weight with me regarding the priesthood.  It's not your area of expertise or responsiblity.  You can never possibly know the power of weilding the priesthood and the supreme burden of possessing God's omnipotence at your fingertips!  MWAHAAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!!  Your female mind is inherently at a disadvantage to understand the glory and sheer voltage that comes with the super powerful priesthood.  Get thee behind me, womyn for thou didst eat of the fruit and thou didst tempt Man to disobey God.  You shall forever be subordinate to MAN!!!!!  MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!!! 

BTW, your sick disgusting position that it's a man's fault if he holds the priesthood and his kid dies due to his lack of faith only illuminates your ignorance and ill thinking regarding this topic.

Again you show your lack of knowledge...which by the way the priesthood is under....

D&C 128: 14

14 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as are the records on the earth in relation to your dead, which are truly made out, so also are the records in heaven. This, therefore, is the sealing and binding power, and, in one sense of the word, the keys of the kingdom, which consist in the key of knowledge.

Also, I do hold the priesthood. I hold the authority, and the power, as does every sister in the church. We just hold it differently for different things like Temple work and personal matters.

More than this I have lived with a worthy priesthood holder and witnessed it being used correctly and with great miracles and daily blessings. Where as you have had no such experience...I mean...having the priesthood actually used righteously in your life.

And you should try and calm down. You sound like you are the one on meds...cause darling...it ain't me.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Marsha@Feb 16 2004, 05:07 AM

]

If that would be the case, I'd be the first in line to pull the handle at the electric chair.  No one has a right to do that to another human being.

AS.

Tell me how that isn't doing the same thing? Murder is Murder. Doesn't matter whether it is a "handle" on an electric chair to pull or a "trigger" on a gun.

Marsha

Not really.

Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being. You may not agree with capital punishment but execution is not murder. By the way, a secondary defintion of murder is a brutal and unwarranted killing, neither of which applies to capital punishment either.