Kidnapping And Murder

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Marsha+Feb 16 2004, 05:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Marsha @ Feb 16 2004, 05:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Feb 15 2004, 06:59 PM

Your wayward son who had just as much love, if not more, didn't want to abide by what you taught him as a child, a teen or a young adult...well this son goes out and kidnaps, possibly rapes and murders a helpless young girl.

If that would be the case, I'd be the first in line to pull the handle at the electric chair. No one has a right to do that to another human being.

AS.

Tell me how that isn't doing the same thing? Murder is Murder. Doesn't matter whether it is a "handle" on an electric chair to pull or a "trigger" on a gun.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Marsha

Ok. But you didn't address the question. How can a Kind, Loving, and Merciful god create the monster that murdered that child?

[Marsha]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Feb 16 2004, 05:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Feb 16 2004, 05:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Marsha@Feb 16 2004, 05:07 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Feb 15 2004, 06:59 PM

Your wayward son who had just as much love, if not more, didn't want to abide by what you taught him as a child, a teen or a young adult...well this son goes out and kidnaps, possibly rapes and murders a helpless young girl.

If that would be the case, I'd be the first in line to pull the handle at the electric chair. No one has a right to do that to another human being.

AS.

Tell me how that isn't doing the same thing? Murder is Murder. Doesn't matter whether it is a "handle" on an electric chair to pull or a "trigger" on a gun.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Marsha

Ok. But you didn't address the question. How can a Kind, Loving, and Merciful god create the monster that murdered that child?

AS,

I don't have an answer for that question. I often have had the same feelings in which I received no answers. Sorry.

Marsha

[elinz]

Didn't the Ten Commandments say:

"Do not Murder?"

and then the meaning was transcribed incorrectly to become:

"Do not kill?"

It's one thing to murder someone without good reason,

but when someone is "killed" it might be in the process

of completing justice.

So you have to be careful in your basic premise.

[elinz]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Feb 6 2004, 09:16 AM

A little girl was kidnapped in Florida on Sunday.  Her body was found behind a church today or yesterday.  She was probably raped.  She probably suffered greatly in her last hours alive.  How could a just, loving, merciful God allow such a thing to happen?

If we really were faithful to God we would have been

responsible for knowing the guy that did it well enough

to be able to redirect his failed and miserable life into

something positive.

We ignore the creep and he rapes and murders.

God's will is visible in that, isn't it?

God is loving if you turn toward his way.

That's the responsibility part, if we let human soul

pollution rule the earth we have to expect the

consequences.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by elinz+Feb 16 2004, 03:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (elinz @ Feb 16 2004, 03:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Feb 6 2004, 09:16 AM

A little girl was kidnapped in Florida on Sunday.  Her body was found behind a church today or yesterday.  She was probably raped.  She probably suffered greatly in her last hours alive.  How could a just, loving, merciful God allow such a thing to happen?

If we really were faithful to God we would have been

responsible for knowing the guy that did it well enough

to be able to redirect his failed and miserable life into

something positive.

We ignore the creep and he rapes and murders.

God's will is visible in that, isn't it?

God is loving if you turn toward his way.

That's the responsibility part, if we let human soul

pollution rule the earth we have to expect the

consequences.

Why would he create a monster?

[elinz]

You have it backwards.

God doesn't make the monster, we do

by not being sure that the guy turns

out right.

The Muslims go so far as to kill off all

their mistakes before they get that bad.

Hmmmm, that's an idea.

But free choice seems to be our way.

We are free to choose evil over good.

The only thing that is really bad is when

someone really doesn't have a choice.

If this guy was abused as a child and

never learned he even had a choice

he would simply react to life and choose

his default pattern, evil.

If he really was aware that he had a

choice I doubt he would choose evil.

Most failures are also clueless.

Trash creates more trash.

That's why the real power is in "changing"

the default pattern. That's power, spiritual

power.

That''s creating new worlds...

[Lindy]

Back to AS8~

I'm human. I do the best I can. Sometimes I think I'm fair, other times I know I'm not. But yes, I try to love them, discipline them, etc...I would never murder one of them to teach them a lesson, or to teach the other one a lesson. That idea is beyond preposterous to me...no, actually, it's sick.

Hey guy-You are doing what a good father does...and it sounds like you are a very fair parent. I never, ever would suggest that you murder one of your children to teach a lesson to ANYONE! I was trying for the "father" aspect here, and I don't think that you caught what I was aiming for. I agree I would be a sicko if I had said something like that to you....but I didn't. I'm really not a sick minded person like that.

Your wayward son who had just as much love, if not more, didn't want to abide by what you taught him as a child, a teen or a young adult...well this son goes out and kidnaps, possibly rapes and murders a helpless young girl.

If that would be the case, I'd be the first in line to pull the handle at the electric chair. No one has a right to do that to another human being.

I find that hard to believe, I don't think that you could be that heartless. Don't get me wrong....I am a firm believer in capital punishment, but I think that pulling the handle on one's child is just a little much to try to comprehend.

You knew that this son had a different path he was following years ago, and you tried to steer him back to where he should be, you tried, you did all you could to raise this seed of yours the right way. Now there are some who blame you for the death of this young girl....because he is YOUR son...you should have known better...even if you had an idea of what he was capable of....you should have not let this happen. YOU ARE AT FAULT! YOU BAD PARENT!! WHAT KIND OF FATHER ARE YOU? HOW COULD YOU CREATE SUCH A PERSON AND ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN? YOU SHOULD HAVE MADE HIM LISTEN TO YOU.....WHY DIDN'T YOU MAKE HIM A GOOD PERSON? WHY, WHY, WHY!!!!???

But see...you're trying to equate me with God. I BEGETTED a child...I didn't create him. I sired an offspring, but had no control over the fundamental nature of his being...his inherent makeup.

And I am talking about earthly parenthood here AS8....not trying to relate you to godhood right now....ok? Can't you just play along with me....humor me if you will? Leave God completly out of the storyline, and just assume the role of the father in question if you would...

Of course I understand where you're coming from, but unfortunately it appears you're incapable of either understanding what I'm saying, or you're unwilling to acknowledge it. Probably the latter. It's too dangerous for your mind to accept the inherent unfairness of your faith.

I understand a lot more than you think I do AS....I am fully capable of understanding (a LOT of things). Give me some credit here....I wasn't always LDS...I used to be on the outside of the faith looking at things differently. Sometimes I can remember certain aspects of how I felt while reading your posts.....

And you might be right AS...it might be dangerous for my mind to accept somethings...so I don't. I put some things on the back burner of my mind to deal with at a later time. Too much to deal with at one time can make one crazy, and I'm not one to start taking sedatives to keep me functioning.

Unfairness. (of my faith) ...yes I think a lot of things in faith and reality are unfair. But I had to come to realize that God has His reasons...even those reasons I don't or can't comprehend at this moment. But, I wouldn't just single out MY faith...

I used to be where you are now, when you belonged to the church....I was not a member, I was always questioning a lot, I debated about a "loving God who would allow such things to happen", and I was angry with a lot of things that I couldn't understand fully. I got frustrated a lot with people who couldn't tell me what I wanted to hear, and I gave up, trying to find the answers I wanted, for a while.

I don't think that you will be able to find an answer that you like AS8, only the opinions and the thoughts of mere mortal men and women.

++++++++++++++

elinz~

"Trash creates more trash" It's up to those "baby trashies" to break the mold and stand up for something. It takes a strong person to do something about their environment...instead of taking the lazy way out and just giving in to it.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Marsha+Feb 16 2004, 03:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Marsha @ Feb 16 2004, 03:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -antishock82003@Feb 16 2004, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by -Marsha@Feb 16 2004, 05:07 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Feb 15 2004, 06:59 PM

Your wayward son who had just as much love, if not more, didn't want to abide by what you taught him as a child, a teen or a young adult...well this son goes out and kidnaps, possibly rapes and murders a helpless young girl.

If that would be the case, I'd be the first in line to pull the handle at the electric chair. No one has a right to do that to another human being.

AS.

Tell me how that isn't doing the same thing? Murder is Murder. Doesn't matter whether it is a "handle" on an electric chair to pull or a "trigger" on a gun.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Marsha

Ok. But you didn't address the question. How can a Kind, Loving, and Merciful god create the monster that murdered that child?

AS,

I don't have an answer for that question. I often have had the same feelings in which I received no answers. Sorry.

Marsha

Bingo. Hence the reason why I respect you, Marsha...at least right now until you start disagreeing with me Thank you for your honesty.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by elinz@Feb 16 2004, 05:16 PM

You have it backwards.

God doesn't make the monster, we do

by not being sure that the guy turns

out right.

The Muslims go so far as to kill off all

their mistakes before they get that bad.

Hmmmm, that's an idea.

But free choice seems to be our way.

We are free to choose evil over good.

The only thing that is really bad is when

someone really doesn't have a choice.

If this guy was abused as a child and

never learned he even had a choice

he would simply react to life and choose

his default pattern, evil.

If he really was aware that he had a

choice I doubt he would choose evil.

Most failures are also clueless.

Trash creates more trash.

That's why the real power is in "changing"

the default pattern. That's power, spiritual

power.

That''s creating new worlds...

So, God didn't know what He was creating?

[Guest antishock82003]

L,

I thought you were using an analogy. Ok.

1) I agree with the human aspect of what you're saying.

2) I could pull the handle on my own son if he had kidnapped, raped, and murdered an 11 year-old girl.

3) God, if he knews everything, knew what he was creating when he created Joseph Smith. He knew that Joseph Smith would eventually choose his path and then act on his urges. He knew that someday that sweet little girl would be kidnapped, possibly raped, and then murdered. I'm sorry, but I don't see Love, Mercy, and Kindness in any of that.

[Marsha]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Feb 17 2004, 08:42 AM

Ok. But you didn't address the question. How can a Kind, Loving, and Merciful god create the monster that murdered that child?

AS,

I don't have an answer for that question. I often have had the same feelings in which I received no answers. Sorry.

Marsha

Bingo. Hence the reason why I respect you, Marsha...at least right now until you start disagreeing with me Thank you for your honesty.

AS,

Thanks for the respect. However, I don't think that anyone can answer that question. Scriptures can be pasted here all day long. There is a scripture for every aspect of life - and death for that matter. Guess that is one question that we'll have to ask the Lord when we see him.

Marsha

[elinz]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Feb 17 2004, 06:46 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Feb 17 2004, 06:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--elinz@Feb 16 2004, 05:16 PM

You have it backwards.

God doesn't make the monster, we do

by not being sure that the guy turns

out right.

The Muslims go so far as to kill off all

their mistakes before they get that bad.

Hmmmm, that's an idea. 

But free choice seems to be our way.

We are free to choose evil over good.

The only thing that is really bad is when

someone really doesn't have a choice.

If this guy was abused as a child and

never learned he even had a choice

he would simply react to life and choose

his default pattern, evil.

If he really was aware that he had a

choice I doubt he would choose evil.

Most failures are also clueless.

Trash creates more trash.

That's why the real power is in "changing"

the default pattern.  That's power, spiritual

power.

That''s creating new worlds...

So, God didn't know what He was creating?

God has rules.

If we use these rules wisely things turn out better.

If we ignore them they get worse.

We control the outcome by our actions.

We ultimately have the choice.

(you do see the patterns don't you? Cause -> Effect)

[Guest antishock82003]

I'm not talking about rules, hon. Did God know what He was creating?

[elinz]

Is God really Santa Claus?

That's almost what your asking.

If you begin with an idealized, simplified view of

God (that could pass as Santa Claus) you might

find yourself questioning the character of God.

Why do that?

Isn't it sufficient to see the patterns of the universe

that are the "clues" of God?

To define God's MOTIVATION seems pretty

presumptious doesn't it?

There's a great scene from the movie "The Devils

Advocate" that goes along those lines:

"God?"

"What about God?"

"He's a sadist"

"He loves to watch people suffer"

"He says 'look, but don't touch'"

"touch, but don't taste"

"taste, but don't swallow"

...maybe God is a sadist?

[Lindy]

You know AS, I think that God has a plan for everyone to a point. If they obey the commandments and stay true (hold to the rod if you will). But I don't really think that He knows exactly what everyone plans when they choose to follow a different path than the straight one. I am what you might call a LDS non conformist...I believe what I know is true (for me) and let others believe what is true for them. I don't swallow everything hook, line, and sinker.

Satan is a powerful enemy, and who knows, maybe he mucks things up so much that God can't really see thru the haze. I really don't know how things work, all I can do is speculate. When I had thoughts such as yours about WHY God would let things happen to the innocent children - I had to think of a lot of different things- or I would have turned into a bitter God hating person who found misery everywhere I turned. (I don't do misery well, I get tired of it pretty quickly.) I decided that I would just not question His intentions when it came to some things. There was a time when I viewed life as a game that God created out of boredom; just to see the choices that we would make and the path that we would take in life. I still wonder WHY God lets a lot of things happen, but I don't let it consume me. I have a lot of questions to ask if I ever have that chance to see Him again.

It still bothers me that you would have the stomach to pull the handle on your own...but that is your choice in the matter, at least you stand firm in what you believe. I just couldn't do it.