Infinite atonement

[ninjormon]

I have a question about the atonement being "infinite". The atonement is said to be infinite so that means it was either needed or accepted for every universe in existence. If there were other worlds to have been created, did they need an atonement. Did they all wait around for eternity for Christ to come or did they have thier own? If there were others have any of them ever failed? Is that possible? Does it being infinite mean that if one were to fail everything would cease to exist and the universes would start from scratch?

[HiJolly]

I have a question about the atonement being "infinite". The atonement is said to be infinite so that means it was either needed or accepted for every universe in existence.

Ok, I'm with you.

If there were other worlds to have been created, did they need an atonement.

Yes.

Did they all wait around for eternity for Christ to come or did they have thier own?

No. Since it is Eternal, it is timeless.

If there were others have any of them ever failed? Is that possible?

Don't understand the question.

Does it being infinite mean that if one were to fail everything would cease to exist and the universes would start from scratch?

I'm not sure I understand, but if I do I don't know the answer. Sorry.

HiJolly

[Hemidakota]

Good morning my dear brother. Let me see I can answer this for you, with clarity in answering those thoughts.

To begin Ninjormon, the "great plan of the Eternal God" was formulated in the eternities. We need to realize, it was not a spur-of-the-moment reaction to unforeseen problems arising from Adam's transgression. We can conclude, all was foreordained; all was planned. Four critical elements in that eternal planwere moral agency, the Fall, the Atonement, the resurrection, and the judgment. If it was to be unfolded, we can surmise it as moral agency led to the Fall, and the Fall made the three-fold mission of Christ (atonement, resurrection, and judgment) imperative. The Almighty does not rule by mere fiat, nor does he ignore the moral imbalance in the universe caused by the cumulative sins of mankind.

Yes! I do know some who reject the atonement of Christ argue, "How can one mortal die for the sins of all mortals?" The answer is, the Savior cannot. No mortal, however virtuous, can atone for the sins of another, let alone the sins of all mankind. (read Alma 34:11-12) Why not? Because as a result of Adam's transgression, "all mankind became a lost and fallen people." (read Alma 12:22)

Ninjormon, if all are lost, who can save them? Only an infinite Being, free of the spiritual consequences of the Fall could do so. Only a GOD could atone for the sins of any world. Only GOD could satisfy the demands of justice [other righteous intelligences] could the truly penitent be saved by divine mercy. (read Alma 34:15-16; 42:13-15, 22-25) Therefore, "God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people." (read Mosiah 15:1.) "God himself atoneth for the sins of the world." (read Alma 42:15.)

Recounting the idolatrous Zoramites assumption that the God called Christ would be a mere mortal, Amulek remarked, "It shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice." (read Alma 34:10, 42:15)

In the Book of Mormon, we read of God's infinite goodness, mercy, and grace. (read 2 Nephi 9:7; 25:16) In other words, all that pertains to God is infinite, even as the adjectives eternal, endless, and everlasting describe his divine nature. (read D&C 19:10-13) Therefore, the Atonement was an infinite act because it was performed by an infinite Being. The nature of the act reflected the nature of the Actor.

Now you asked, whether this infinite atonement affected other worlds, here is the answer for that question. Prophet Joseph Smith taught that the atonement of Jesus Christ was efficacious not only for mankind on this earth, but for the human family on other earths as well. In his poetic parallel of Doctrine and Covenants 76:23-24, the Prophet wrote of the worlds the Saviour had organized:

Whose inhabitants, too, from the first to the last,

Are sav'd by the very same Saviour of ours;

And, of course, are begotten God's daughters and sons

By the very same truths and the very same powers.

[bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed. [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966], p. 66.

We do note that the Book of Mormon is silent on this doctrine. It treats the Atonement only in terms of Adam's posterity on this earth: "He [Christ] suffereth the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam." (2 Nephi 9:21) We can surmise again, Jesus Christ performed an infinite atonement is beyond dispute, but how far-reaching it was pertaining to all the worlds that were, are, and will be is, as yet, unrevealed. It will require for you to seek that answer directly from the Godhead.

Getting back to the Adam transgression, because of the Fall, the laws and commandments of GOD saved no one. To the contrary of that, the laws tend to condemn everyone. With the Lord's help, HIS laws are now livable. The Savior "kept the law of God, and remained without sin, showing thereby that it is in the power of man to keep the law and remain also without sin." [Lectures on Faith (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1985), no. 5, par. 2.]

Ninjormon, 'Justice' is the essence of the law. We reap what we sow. Alma called this principle "the plan of restoration." (read Alma 41:2) In continuation stated, "restoration is to bring back again evil for evil . . . good for that which is good." (read Alma 41:13) In content of what was said, we are personally accountable for how we use the gift of moral agency. Amulek asked: "Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay. But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered." (read Alma 34:11-12) Further reading is required to really understand the content of what Amulek asked the people, 'Justice' is still not served by the law of land. This is another topic for later.

Going further, Amulek stated that Christ is to be "the whole meaning of the law, every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal." (read Alma 34:14) We can further seem, this sacrifice really began with Adam as an ordinance of the fullness of the gospel and was continued under Moses as an aspect of the "preparatory gospel," which included the Mosaic law. (Read Moses 5:5-7, D&C 84:26-27). However, "the law of Moses availeth nothing except it were through the atonement of his blood." (Mosiah 3:15; Alma 26:16.) Without this Christ, the law was a shadow without substance. Ninjormon, without Christ humanity stood helpless before the 'Justice' of God no matter how faithfully the law might have been observed.

Again, it is the Savior's atoning sacrifice, an act of infinite mercy that provides the essential motivation for the faith taught by Alma and Amulek. In the absence of God's mercy, why should anyone have faith? Life would still be a dead-end street leading to death, hell, and become a minion of Lucifer.

To conclude, GOD's mercy justifies our human faith. And faith, in turn, begets the hope of eternal life. This hope is justified by the works of divine love that complete the triangle of salvation: faith, hope, and charity. (read Alma 34:27-29, Moroni 7:38-48). Hopefully, this had answered your questions.

What I have to say, I do not believe that our GOD is the owner or ruler of this entire universe. But serving with other such great eternal divine beings, in bringing to pass that plan that originated from the beginning.

[Traveler]

I have a question about the atonement being "infinite". The atonement is said to be infinite so that means it was either needed or accepted for every universe in existence. If there were other worlds to have been created, did they need an atonement. Did they all wait around for eternity for Christ to come or did they have thier own? If there were others have any of them ever failed? Is that possible? Does it being infinite mean that if one were to fail everything would cease to exist and the universes would start from scratch?

The reality is that we know the infinite atonement covers all the Children of our Heavenly Father that fell under the covenant and epoch of Adam and Eve. In other words “Sons of Adam” and “Daughters of Eve”. To assume anything beyond this is speculation and in fact meaningless because what happens outside of this covenant has never been revealed in enough detail to have any consequence.

In politics it is important to “follow the money” in order to know and understand who is loyal to what and why some things are happening. Similarly with sacred things we can learn a lot and not be lead astray by a “follow the covenant” attitude. In fact many scriptures are made clearer just by asking yourself how the scripture relates to your covenant with G-d. If the relationship is not clear it is likely that you do not have a good grasp on the scripture.

The Traveler

[Hemidakota]

In fact many scriptures are made clearer just by asking yourself how the scripture relates to your covenant with G-d. If the relationship is not clear it is likely that you do not have a good grasp on the scripture.

When something is unclear, we should not ask ourselves but ask from the source itself – the Godhead. If there is an unknown mystery or doctrine that is not teachable to the lesser immature membership of the church, this doesn’t mean it is not teachable to those who are ready. If we do err, I would leave it in the hand of the Holy Ghost to change it.

[tubaloth]

I have a question about the atonement being "infinite". The atonement is said to be infinite so that means it was either needed or accepted for every universe in existence.

The Atonement is Infinite because God's (Our Heavenly Father's) laws are Infinite. Because God's power (or domain) is Infinite. The Atonement had to cover every aspect of the Law, and thus had to be infinite!

It covers all of our Heavenly Fathers domain, creations, or anything our Father in Heaven brought into existence. But it does not cover any other God's domain or creations, just our Heavenly Father's.

If there were other worlds to have been created, did they need an atonement.

Yes, but they are all part of our Father in Heaven. The atonement covers all the creations of Heavenly Father, or more covers all that Christ created (Christ created worlds by the power of Heavenly Father).

If you are talking about other worlds outside of Heavenly Fathers, they also would need a savior, or more they follow the same plan of salvation.

Did they all wait around for eternity for Christ to come or did they have their own?

You do realize people repented of there sins before an atonement happen. Adam, Moses, Alma, Nephi, all lived the gospel and repented and turned to Christ as he had already come. The reason is, they didn't wait for an Atonement to happen, because God told them an Atonement would happen. So there was no waiting? I'm not sure how you would wait?

If there were others have any of them ever failed?

Other Plan of Salvation's besides our Heavenly Father? Other Atonements besides what our Christ did? I can not see how they would fail.

Is that possible? Does it being infinite mean that if one were to fail everything would cease to exist and the universes would start from scratch?

No, because God is all knowing, he knows the end from the beginning. When God called Christ (at least our Christ) he knew that Christ would be able to complete the atonement.

The way your question is asked it makes it seem like God is hoping things well work. God doesn't fail! If God could fail (even just that possibility) would throw the plan of salvation in to chaos.

Your question is interesting, but I'm not sure if you are specific enough in what worlds and universes you are talking about?

[Just_A_Guy]

If Jesus' was the only Atonement among all the universes run by all the Beings similar to our own Father in Heaven, does that mean that God the Father (assuming you buy into the "as man is, God once was" idea) was actually saved by virtue of His Son's Atonement?

Is the Son really greater than the Father?

[TruthSeekerToo]

Well, frankly I think Hemi said it best.

However, to the waiting question: If I understand correctly Jesus Christ also saved us from physical death through the resurrection. None were resurrected before him. So, there actually is a wait to be reunited with our bodies.

I think there is actually a wait for most to be redeemed from spiritual death-which is to behold the face of God or enter into His presence. Spiritual death is to be seperated from Him.

ETA: You might be interested in reading the Lectures on Faith. They used to be included in our canon as part of the D&C. You can view them online here.

They have wonderful information on faith and the nature of the Godhead.

Edited April 23, 2009 by TruthSeekerToo

[rameumptom]

I think "infinite" in this sense does not necessarily mean all universes and time. I think it means that within this Creation cycle it must extend out to all individuals and all parts of this Creation from its beginning until the end of time.

[deseretgov]

What I believe about this is that God is the God of our Universe. Now a brief explaination of astronomy before we continue. I do this becaus ethere has ben misunderstandings in the past.

Earth is a planet. Earth along with Mars, and the other planets that orbit our sun are called the Solar System. A large group of stars is called a galaxy. The Milky way is a Galaxy. Pretty much all the stars you see in the sky are in our Galaxy. The universe is the constantly expanding expanse that is filled with galaxies.

I don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence it's just that I had a seminary teacher who called galaxies universes. He thus came to the conclusion that God is the God of every universe.

Anyway God is the God of this universe. The Saviour's atonement is is infinite within God's realm which is the constantly expanding expanse that is filled with galaxies. So Christ's atonement is applicable to every person on every planet in all the galaxies within this universe. If it wasn't so, and each planet had their own saviour then if you travelled to another planet you would have another Saviour to choose from.

Now the interesting thing is that this would mean that the Fall of Adam would also be infinate and applicable to every person in the universe. That adds a whole new aspect.

[ninjormon]

I understand how the plan is infinite in fullfilling all aspects of the law and eternal elements

by an infinite being.

But is that the only thing that makes it infinite?

I agree with rameumptom is saying that it does not mean infinite in including all other creations

but those placed on this earth within the creation cycle and will last forever, another

characteristic of being infinite.

That is the question that I was asking. If Christ atonement covers other earths. It does not

it is accepted by others though as being a spotless infinite sacrifice.

Since it does not include other earths and other cycles, my next question is were there saviours

for other earths? Did Heavenly Father have to do this on his own planet? Will we have to

do it on a future earth? Next question is if there are many many of these cycles can any of

them fail? For example if Christ had given into tempation, He did have weakness and a human

side, if this had been another person could they fail. My next question is what happens if they

fail? With answers to these questions I am sure that in time I will have more.

[tubaloth]

If Christ atonement covers other earths. It does not

it is accepted by others though as being a spotless infinite sacrifice.

Huh? Why is it not accepted by other as being spotless?

Since it does not include other earths and other cycles, my next question is were there saviours for other earths?

Out side of Heavenly Fathers creations, yes there are other others.

Did Heavenly Father have to do this on his own planet?

Not necessarily. Heavenly would have had to have a savior (an Atonement) happen on one of HIS Father’s creations.

Will we have to do it on a future earth?

We would have to do it for our spiritual Children. We would call a savior, and have an Atonement for all of our children.

Next question is if there are many many of these cycles can any of

them fail? For example if Christ had given into tempation, He did have weakness and a human

side, if this had been another person could they fail. My next question is what happens if they

fail? With answers to these questions I am sure that in time I will have more.

I already answered this in my other post. God can’t fail. With God knowing all he knows if Christ would fail or not. Even more if the possibility of God allowing failure, then the whole plan of salvation would be in chaos.

[ninjormon]

I never said that the sacrifice made by Christ isn't accepted, I said it was. Read it again, I missed a coma in there sorry.

If there is never a possibility to fail why is there such a resistance? Surely satan and all others to ever oppose would have known that before.

[Honor]

I'm pretty sure you'd enjoy this book:

DeseretBook.com - The Infinite Atonement

[deseretgov]

Well it depends on your perspective if there was a possibility to fail. Was there the option to fail? Yes. But Christ wasn't going to fail. God knows the future past and present. God knows(knew) that Chirst would not fail.

I think satans efforts are more out of desperation. He knows where he is going so he wants to take as many with him as he can.

About the atonement being eternal. I remember hearing a talk I don't remember who it was by or when but it said that the atonement isnt just for humanities mortal condition. It equally applies to all mortality everywhere. The atonment is for animals, plants, worlds.

I just had another thought about Satan. I'm sure satan doesn't know the future like God does. However he does know the past, as in the premortal life. So even if Satan knew that Christ would not fail, why wouldnt he give Christ the hardest time he could. Satan was faced with some choices let Christ accomplish his task without any resistance. Or make it the hardest most grueling thing Christ ever did. If you were Satan which would you chose.

[Guest Apostate]

I guess no one here has bothered to read Elder Callister's book on this subject?

Kudos to Honor for the link.

[tubaloth]

I guess no one here has bothered to read Elder Callister's book on this subject?

Kudos to Honor for the link.

I read it years ago, but it doesn't deal with what the question is.

The question is about Christ's atonement reaching beyond the realms of Heavenly Fathers creations.

The book is about how Christ's Atonement really does fix everything that came about because of the fall.

It was an interesting book, he just brought up some strange ideas, that do make sense, but aren't really doctrine.

Edited April 27, 2009 by tubaloth

[Hemidakota]

Even this galaxy is not alone and is part of other such galaxies that makes up the 15 super or size galaxy clusters that rotate the center of this universe. When we begin to ask those important questions as Abraham seeked [being learneth as the fathers] after, we will see it with the aid of the Spirit the organization of this universe.

However, I have to disagree with the assumption that our FATHER is the FATHER of this universe or the current Atonement by our Savior will suffice the universe. That is not the case.

[TheAngelPalmoni]

infinite - is another name for Christ, Christ's Atonement

[Guest missingsomething]

Our stake president just spoke on this topic on Sunday.

Here are his thoughts summarized.

We do know, because we've been told that the atonement is infinite. It will fill every space, it will be availabe for every living thing. We know from the scriptures that everything was created spritually before it was created on earth.. This includes Adam, Eve, the trees, birds, animals. Every single living thing was planned and created spiritually first. So when Adam introduced mortality, he did so not only to humans but also to the other living things. The atonment is infinite in that it makes possible a ressurection for all things.

This kinda gave me a "whoah..." moment. But upon praying on it and looking through some scriptures - creation, etc... It is an inspiring thought.

[deseretgov]

However, I have to disagree with the assumption that our FATHER is the FATHER of this universe or the current Atonement by our Savior will suffice the universe. That is not the case.

So what area of influence is Heavenly Father limited to? Also what area of influence is Christ's atonement limited to?

[Guest Alana]

So errr... let me see if I have this straight, at the price of confusing myself more:P

Christ atonement covered all worlds created by Our Heavenly Father. When we become Gods and create our own worlds, me MAY need to call an other savior. So, on the second point there is a little disagreement, but on the point of Jesus being the Savior of all of our Heavenly Fathers worlds, we agree?

[Moksha]

Even this galaxy is not alone and is part of other such galaxies that makes up the 15 super or size galaxy clusters that rotate the center of this universe.

If this thought cannot be confirmed by careful astronomical observation of various wavelengths of the light spectrum, does it mean that perhaps the devil is interfering with this observation, as part of an Infinite Deceivement?

[tubaloth]

So what area of influence is Heavenly Father limited to?

To his own Relm of Creation. Heavenly Father's influence isn't part of other God's worlds. Why would they be?

Also what area of influence is Christ's atonement limited to?

Same! Christ's atonement reachs as far as Heavenly Fathers power does. Or to all of Heavenly Father's creation.

Christ atonement covered all worlds created by Our Heavenly Father.

Yes, even though it actually was Christ that created them, but by the power of Heavenly Father.

When we become Gods and create our own worlds, me MAY need to call an other savior.

We well follow the plan of salvation and call a Savior for all of our children.

[Justice]

I agree with all of tubaloth's previous comments.