Contradiction between 'Teachings of the presidents of the church, Jospeh Smith' chapters

[Fanees]

At Church I often hear phrase 'for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong' and when I read chapter 'The First Vision: The Father and the Son Appear to Joseph Smith', this passage:

"My mind became exceedingly distressed, for I became convicted of my sins, and by searching the scriptures I found that mankind did not come unto the Lord, but that they had apostatized from the true and living faith, and there was no society or denomination that built upon the gospel of Jesus Christ" Teachings of the Presidents of the Church, Jospeh Smith - Chapter 1, The First Vision: The Father and the Son Appear to Joseph Smith, From the Life of Joseph Smith as recorded in the New Testament, and I felt to mourn for my own sins and for the sins of the world.

I felt contradiction between what is stated in another passage:

"No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong) - and which I should join." Teachings of the Presidents of the Church, Jospeh Smith - Chapter 1, The First Vision: The Father and the Son Appear to Joseph Smith, Havenly Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph in answer to his humble prayer

Why Joseph before prayer in the woods tells, that he "found that mankind did not come unto the Lord, but that they had apostatized from the true and living faith", but in other passage he write, that he never thought, that here on earth nope right religion? Edited April 30, 2009 by Fanees

[bytebear]

I think Smith meant that he hadn't found a church yet that was "built upon the gospel of Jesus Christ" and that God would point him to a denomination that he had not yet found. So, he was shocked to find out that not one existed anywhere.

[Justice]

Yes, I think so too.

However, not to add fuel to the fire, there is a contradicting statement in a different version of the first vision. I would need to find the exact 2 quotes and put them side by side in order to continue the discussion (I wouldn't want to make a discussion on my heresay). If anyone can help find the exact quotes (Hemi)?

In one description of the First Vision he mentions that it never entered into his heart that "all were wrong," and in another, he mentions "or if all are wrong together."

Anyone?

[Moksha]

Koakaipo on another forum (MAD) speculated that the LDS Church formation was much like that of many organizations in that it was important at the beginning to assert our uniqueness. She said this happens with many fledging organizations including the early Christian Church. Even Jesus declared that I am the light and the way".

This will toward a uniqueness lead to many early followers meeting their deaths because they thought Jesus was made of a similar, but not the exact same substance as the Father. Those with the sharp spears who survived, were those who believed they were of the same exact substance. Seems picayunish? They were only trying to assert their truths based on their unique interpretation.

Koakaipo thought that as organizations mature, they are better able to tolerate differences and are not so insisting that they are the one. Perhaps the exception to this is the branding slogans between Coke and Pepsi.

Like President Hinckley would say, "Bring your truths to the table..."

Just a thought.

:)

[Wingnut]

Yes, I think so too.

However, not to add fuel to the fire, there is a contradicting statement in a different version of the first vision. I would need to find the exact 2 quotes and put them side by side in order to continue the discussion (I wouldn't want to make a discussion on my heresay). If anyone can help find the exact quotes (Hemi)?

In one description of the First Vision he mentions that it never entered into his heart that "all were wrong," and in another, he mentions "or if all are wrong together."

Anyone?

I noticed that a few years ago, and it bothered me for about five minutes. Both quotes you mention are from Joseph Smith-History, found in the Pearl of Great Price.

10 In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it?

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

Here's the difference as I see it: In the first one, Joseph muses to himself "I wonder which church is the true church of Christ? Maybe it's _____. But what if it's ______? Maybe none of them is it? Naw...that wouldn't be. I just haven't found it yet."

In the second quote, it's more like "Whoa! This is big! None of them really is the true church of Christ. It really isn't on the earth! Wow...I never thought that that might actually be!"

It's a stronger realization, rather than a fleeting passing thought.

[jameslentz]

I think that it is really a matter of semantics in most of these cases and in separate accounts....I think I saw one time there are 4 accounts of the First Vision that were written or dictated by Joseph Smith and each was a little different, but that would make sense seeing as how he is human and when you tell or relate a story especially at different times then there will be small variances. This is also why often the police will interview the victim of a crime a couple times because on each interview they might remember something new. Just my 2 cents.

[Hemidakota]

While Joseph, particularly in the early years, was careful about who he told of his experience in the grove, he periodically informed others of this vision. In addition to unfolding the event of 1820 to his mother, a Methodist preacher, and a few other inhabitants of the Genesee country, Joseph occasionally informed Church members and nonmembers of his experience in the sacred grove. Many who heard Joseph bear his testimony recorded that which he related to them. Three of the recorders, Frederick G. Williams, Warren Cowdery, and James Mulholland, were scribes hired by the Prophet and wrote that which was dictated to them by Joseph. Other accounts were written by individuals after they had listened to the Prophet testify of his experience. For example, Orson Pratt, one of the early converts to the Church, wrote the first account of Joseph's initial communication with God that was published, his tract being printed in Edinburgh in 1840 and in New York in 1841. In 1842, Orson Hyde published in Frankfurt, Germany, an account of the early history of the Church including the visitation of "two glorious personages" to Joseph Smith. The editor of the Pittsburgh Gazette also published a brief description of this vision after interviewing the Mormon Prophet in Illinois; and Alexander Neibaur, Edward Stevenson, John Taylor, and other contemporaries of the Prophet testified that Joseph informed them of his initial communication with God.

While non-Mormon newspapers of 1830 and later make references to Joseph's claim that he had been visited by God, the earliest recorded recital of the First Vision that has been preserved and explains the event in some detail was dictated by Joseph to his scribe, Frederick G. Williams, between July 20, 1832 and November of that year. Prior to that date, Joseph had been engaged in many other projects.

[Hemidakota]

Here are three different recitals:

Recital of 1832

This account of 1832 was recorded as a rough draft, the style was not polished, nor was it published by the Prophet. It is possible that after dictating the account, Joseph recognized the desirability of modifying certain statements or correcting concepts not accurately written by an untrained scribe. Often when people record biographical sketches or historical incidents, they write and rewrite until their ideas are clearly expressed.

Although this account of 1832 is not as well written nor as comprehensive as later recitals, Joseph revealed one concept in this version which sheds some light on the historical setting of the First Vision. Since the Prophet stated that for two or three years he had been engaged in a quest for religious truth, it is apparent that his search for God's true church was not a sudden impulse. During his investigation, he became confused. There were occasions when he reflected on the possibility that an apostasy had occurred and that "there was no society or denomination that built upon the Gospel of Jesus Christ as recorded in the New Testament."

Nevertheless, the young man continued to examine the religious societies constituted in the place where he lived and possibly desired to learn what Christians in other parts of the world believed. In a later recital, the Prophet indicated his bewilderment when he said, "Who of all these parties are right? Or are they all wrong together? And if any one of them be right which is it? And how shall I know it?"

An 1835 Account

First VisionHC125The shortest known recital of the First Vision which was dictated by Joseph to a scribe occurred in 1835. This account, recorded by Warren Cowdery, was included as part of a conversation between Joseph Smith and Robert Matthias, who had adopted the priestly name of Joshua. Joseph explained his first communication to this visitor. After mentioning that a personage appeared in the midst of a pillar of fire, he said that another personage soon appeared like unto the first and informed Joseph that his sins had been forgiven. Then Joseph said, according to this account, "I saw many angels in this vision." 28

Recital of 1838

The most comprehensive account of the First Vision was prepared for publication as part of Joseph's multi-volume History of the Church and was originally dictated by the Prophet in 1838. This recital was undoubtedly carefully recorded and might have undergone several revisions to improve the style and wording. The version of this account which has been preserved is in the handwriting of James Mulholland, who served as scribe for the Prophet in 1839, indicating that the recital was rewritten after its initial recording. 29

The Wentworth Letter

A second account which was prepared for publication was written for nonmembers of the Church in 1841. At the request of John Wentworth, editor of the Chicago Democrat, Joseph was asked to prepare a brief history of the church which he had founded. Joseph complied, and added to the history thirteen unnumbered statements of belief which are widely known today as the Articles of Faith. [Joseph Smith's First Vision: Confirming Evidences and Contemporary Accounts by Milton V. Backman]

[Hemidakota]

A good link: LDS.org - Ensign Article - Joseph Smith's Recitals of the First Vision

LDS.org - Ensign Article - I Have a Question

Edited May 1, 2009 by Hemidakota