Believe, Works, and Faith

[JohnnyRudick]

. . .How can Jesus be the spiritual or elder brother to His own creation?. . .

After all the long drown out answers we have given you.

The simple answer is Adoption.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage

again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption,

whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not

willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in

hope,

Romans 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered

from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the

children of God.

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and

travaileth in pain together until now.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have

the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within

ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of

our body.

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is

not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Romans 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with

patience wait for it.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities:

for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the

Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which

cannot be uttered.

Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is

the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the

saints according to the will of God.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good

to them that love God, to them who are the called according to

his purpose.

Even though Jesus our Elder Brother has taken on the rule of this earth and all that in it is.

Then on top of it all having brought us through 3000 years history bringing us through think and thin took upon Him literary the Sin of the World and set us free from captivity and is the only god with which we have to do.

He still wants to Adopt us and call us His sons.

Here we have the older Brother adopting His younger brothers and sisters.

He will then present us to the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is

death.

1 Corinthians 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet.

But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest

that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto

him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put

all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Yeah. and I was struggling with this while you were writing your;)

Bro. Rudick

Edited May 18, 2009 by JohnnyRudick
Afterthought;-)

[the Ogre]

AJ:

I do not want you to get distracted by Bro. Rud's explanation. It is very good, but it focuses on ancient-tribal adoption as a metafore for salvation.

Ie.. if we are adopted into the household of one tribe, we receive the benefits of membership and are considered sons, daughters, children of the father of the tribe. If we are adopted into the household of G-d, then we are H-s children, we are siblings with H-s F-rstborn S-n: J-sus Chr-st. The problem is, this chapter does not explain how J-sus became the F-rstborn S-n of our H-avenly F-ther.

It is genius description, but still does not deal with the timeline I gave you. If anything, the timeline I gave explains Romans 8 in a way that is simple and straight forward.

If you want the simple answer to your question, study and understand the great plan of happiness.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have

the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within

ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of

our body.

[aj4u]

I was the one who called you a troll and that you were insulting, so I'll respond (make sure to address me directly instead of rameumpton).

First: we are not pots, but I understand the analogy you are using. It is okay if you are not LDS, but wrong headed if you are. This is one of those things that Latter-day Saints differ from what PC calls traditional Chr-stianity. While yes we believe we were created, we know by whom we were created. You have yet to approach the question of when Latter-day Saints believe humanity was created. It is the lynchpin to the answer to your question: "How can Jesus be [our] spiritual or elder brother?"

Now, I will say that I am not going to dilute LDS doctrine with interfaith diplomacy. You want compromise, seek it elsewhere.

Our spirits were created by G-d the F-ther. H- is the Cr-ator.

Latter-day Saints deny the Nicene Creed, the Trinity, and the Triune G-d. Oook!?! Where does that put us, I wonder. Different!!! And happily so.

Second: We were created before the Earth was!!! Our spirits were not created at conception. Our spirits were created by our F-ther and we lived with H-m in what we call The Pre-existence. Who was created at that time? Every spirit that has interdicted the earth (and others), this includes those spirits who are united with lucifer and oppose humanity and who will never receive a body. This also includes J-sus Chr-st. H-, according to LDS doctrine, was created when we were in the pre-existence. I told you about Mormon.org - Home , you can look this up there. We, J-sus, you, and I and everyother living breathing person were spiritually born before the earth was created. That make J-sus our brother. Because J-sus was the first spirit created, H- is our elder brother.

You believe differently. I am fine with that, so long as you are fine with my beliefs (Article of Faith number 11).

Third: G-d the F-ther, during the pre-existence proposed a plan: the great plan of happiness (see: Mormon.org - Home ). H- asked who would execute this plan. Two voices came forward. One insisted he receive all the glory in place of the F-ther and the other voice said the glory will remain with G-d and that each person involved would work his or her way to salvation through it. This second voice is J-sus. The L-rd agreed with H-m and rejected the first voice: lucifer.

J-sus went forward and the earth was created and eventually we were born. As G-d's executor, H- created the physical earth in the name of G-d the F-ther and paid our way through H-s sacrifice.

G-d the F-ther created our spirits in the pre-existance. J-sus set the process in motion (whatever it was) that lead to the creation of our bodies. J-sus is the physical creator of everything the F-ther planned and envisioned in the great plan of happiness.

To conclude, I showed you how Latter-day Saints believe J-sus is our spiritual brother and our G-d as the person who created the earth in the name of G-d. How do we justify this? Modern revelation. I was very upset with your indirect jibes at modern prophesy, because these jibes were attacks at the core of our beliefs. We need men like Joseph Smith and Thomas S. Monson, because the exact nature of G-d and his S-n J-sus Chr-st is so chaotic without them.

This and other reasons explain why we have modern scripture.

My explanation is simple. If you want more, please do your research.

I understand we are not pots (we are dust), and calling someone are troll doesn't show the love of Christ. I did look at the site, and you have explained and answered the question perfectly according to LDS doctrine; however, that leads to more questions. Why does LDS doctrine clash with the Bible? The Bible says that God says that there was no God before me nor shall there be after me. The Bible teaches that God is Spirit not flesh and bones. The Bible says there is only one God. The only flesh and bone God has is through Jesus because it was God's plan to redeem man by becomming a man born of a virgin. The Bible says that all things were made by Jesus and for Him. Why shouldn't I be careful about what clashes with the Bible? There is so much deception in the latter days? Why should I trust anything different than the gospel I have already heard? It is even written that we shouldn't in GALATIANS:

48-1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

48-1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

48-1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

It seems to me that you trust LDS doctrine more than the Bible, and that is what I don't understand. I cannot to that without believing that I would be sinning against what God has already established as ancient truth! What I am missing here? Why would God leave me out in the cold and give you something different than the ancient of days has established as ancient truth that changes not. It is written that the worlds will pass away but my Word will never fail. Remember Jesus is the Word. God spoke all things into existence (even spiritual beings). Jesus was not spoken into existence; He is the Word that took nothing and made it something. That what "is" was made with that which was not. Jesus made something out ot nothing. Heb. 58-11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Edited May 18, 2009 by aj4u

[the Ogre]

AJ:

I told you to not expect compromise. I like interfaith forums. They are a lot of fun, but this is LDS.net, an LDS site. I am not an apologist; I hate the stuff.

I gave you the LDS answer. Do with it as you will.

I gave the answer to all of your questions before as did Justice and Bytor. You did not listen to what we said: MODERN REVELATION through MODERN PROPHETS.

. . . we are dust . . .

Fine. I think human identity is more complicated than that, but why get distracted.

Why does LDS doctrine clash with the Bible?

It does not, you are not paying attention or listening to what we are saying. If you refuse to listen, then you suffer from some type of bizarre megalomania. If you think we are wrong, that is fine so long as you start hearing what we are saying.

MODERN PROPHECY.

The Bible says that God says that there was no God before me nor shall there be after me.

Article of Faith number 1: We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

Remember, remember we deny the Nicine Creed. If you do not know what that means, then I suggest you do not even understand what it means to be a main-stream Chr-stian.

The Bible teaches that God is Spirit not flesh and bones.

Prove it.

The only flesh and bone God has is through Jesus because it was God's plan to redeem man by becomming a man born of a virgin.

I told you, we do not believe G-d the F-ther and J-sus are the same person. J-sus was born to Mary and H-s father is the very physical G-d the F-ther. We believe G-d has a body.

The Bible says that all things were made by Jesus and for Him.

You are restating what I said.

Why shouldn't I be careful about what clashes with the Bible there is so much deception?

So, you are saying we are deceiving you? I am tell you a lie? You are saying every Latter-day Saint on this board is a liar?

I would urge caution. We are explaining LDS doctrine. I am not trying to convince you of anything. Don't take my word, follow Moroni's challenge, after reading the Book of Mormon, and ask G-d yourself and see what happens.

Why should I trust anything different than the Bible? It is even written that we shouldn't . . .

Your choice.

It seems to me that you trust LDS doctrine more than the Bible, and that is what I don't understand.

I trust the word of G-d as it comes from a prophet of G-d. MODERN REVELATION!!!

I cannot to that without believing that I would be sinning against what God has already established as ancient truth!

Your choice.

What I am missing here?

Listening skills.

Why would God leave me out in the cold and give you something different than the ancient of days has established as ancient truth that changes not.

He didn't, I recommend prayer and then listening for an answer. G-d answers individual prayer.

It is written that the worlds will pass away but my Word will never fail.

Yup, no argument there.

Remember Jesus is the Word. God spoke all things into existence (even spiritual beings).

I told you before, that you did not understand John 1.1. I should clarify, you do not understand it as a Latter-day Saint does.

Jesus made something out ot nothing.

This is something that Latter-day Saints typically do not believe. The argument springs up every once in a while, but like I say often: G-d nowhere gives H-s methodology, H- only says what H- did do and even that much is often discussed here and everywhere else theology is discussed. Latter-day Saints or not.

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

You sound like a gnostic and that is one of the things Latter-day Saints believe led to the great apostasy.

_____________________

Okay, there we go. Simple answers. I will not do that again. You are particularly stubborn. I am not trying to convert you. I presented LDS doctrine simply. You refused to listen.

If you think I am lying, then you have a problem.

The core to the answer I am giving you is modern revelation. If you require that I deny that, then you are requiring me to deny that my G-d does not live and does not speak to H-s children alive today.

Move past propaganda and speak without slogans. I am not using any.

[Justice]

aj4u, I hate to address too many topics at once, but I have a brief comment based on something in your post. Sometimes I think people just don't think of stuff like this.

If GOd created something from nothing, why did it take Him 6 "days" to do it? Did it take that long to "phase" into existence?

No, if you read... I mean REALLY read, Genesis 1 (even just verses 1-10) you will see it is describing a method, not an action. He describes what He did with existing materials over the course of many different time periods.

Again, modern revelation helped me see this. I did not gleen this just from the Bible. But, once the other scripture points you in the right direction, the Bible becomes clear.

[aj4u]

AJ:

I told you to not expect compromise. I like interfaith forums. They are a lot of fun, but this is LDS.net, an LDS site. I am not an apologist; I hate the stuff..

We are together on that.

You did not listen to what we said: MODERN REVELATION through MODERN PROPHETS.

It does not, you are not paying attention or listening to what we are saying. If you refuse to listen, then you suffer from some type of bizarre megalomania. If you think we are wrong, that is fine so long as you start hearing what we are saying.

MODERN PROPHECY..

Just because someone may not understand or agree doesn't mean they are not listening.

Article of Faith number 1: We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost..

I believe this too, but apparently it doesn't mean we believe it the sme way.

Remember, remember we deny the Nicine Creed. If you do not know what that means, then I suggest you do not even understand what it means to be a main-stream Chr-stian.

.

I understand. I have never mentioned or promoted the Nicine Creed just my understand of the Bible.

Prove it...

Gen. 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

I told you, we do not believe G-d the F-ther and J-sus are the same person. J-sus was born to Mary and H-s father is the very physical G-d the F-ther. We believe G-d has a body. .

Jn. 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. That is a pretty good description of God.

So, you are saying we are deceiving you? I am tell you a lie? You are saying every Latter-day Saint on this board is a liar

I would urge caution. We are explaining LDS doctrine. I am not trying to convince you of anything. Don't take my word, follow Moroni's challenge, after reading the Book of Mormon, and ask G-d yourself and see what happens.?.

I never said that anyone is a lair. I believe you are telling me what you believe is true or you wouldn't be following and teaching it.

Your choice

I trust the word of G-d as it comes from a prophet of G-d. MODERN REVELATION!!!.

I understand but there have been many modern day prophets. How do we obey Scripture to try the spirits to make sure it is from God? What do we have to compare modern revelation to, and how can we confirm that it is from God? You recommend prayer and then listening for an answer. G-d answers individual prayer. I believe that, but what if you can see clashes between modern revelation and the Bible? It seems pointless to pray and ask God if the clash is true or what clashes with the Bible. You would have to already believe it were to ask and get a confirmation. When the confirmation comes, how do you know that it can be trusted as well. Satan can give false signs and confirmations especially if it goes contrary to the ancient written word. Try to understand I am not trying to give you a hard time. I have been deceived and I am careful to obey Scripture by not believing every Spirit but try them to see if they be really from God.

I told you before, that you did not understand John 1.1. I should clarify, you do not understand it as a Latter-day Saint does. This is something that Latter-day Saints typically do not believe. The argument springs up every once in a while, but like I say often: G-d nowhere gives H-s methodology, H- only says what H- did do and even that much is often discussed here and everywhere else theology is discussed. Latter-day Saints or not...

I don't want to believe Scripture as does another religion or modern day teaching until I can first verify it is from God. Does that not make sense to you?

You sound like a gnostic and that is one of the things Latter-day Saints believe led to the great apostasy..

I am not!

_

____________________

Okay, there we go. Simple answers. I will not do that again. You are particularly stubborn. I am not trying to convert you. I presented LDS doctrine simply. You refused to listen..

I think you are confusing a Burien, careful cautious spirit with stubborn.

_

____________________

If you think I am lying, then you have a problem.

The core to the answer I am giving you is modern revelation. If you require that I deny that, then you are requiring me to deny that my G-d does not live and does not speak to H-s children alive today.

Move past propaganda and speak without slogans. I am not using any.

I don't think your lying, I am most certainly am not requiring compromise from you or for you to deny anything. Edited May 18, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

I understand that you say that modern revelation was given to help with understanding problems we encounter in the Bible. Do not these types of problems exists in all three sources you use in conjunction with the Bible. Aren't there, in fact, unanswered question from those sources alone? Are we to expect another modern day revelation from another prophet in the near future to help us understand what is not clear of modern day revelation today?

[Dravin]

Article of Faith 9:

We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

[aj4u]

Article of Faith 9:

We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

I do too!

[Islander]

aj4u, the only difficulty I've had is understanding your interpretation of the scriptures. The problem is I just don't get what you get from them. I understand what you're saying, but I'm trying to reconcile that in scripture... and I can't.

If one believes in agency, then they must believe a man is free to act (work) according to his desires. God does not control what actions (works) a man does. However, when a man makes covenants with God, God can then more fully help a man keep His covenant. I believe that is the great mystery to you. Once you come to know and understand the covenants God has included in His plan of redemption, then it is easier to see how God can offer help to the penitent. God does not make one penitent, but He has made that available to men because of the gift of His Son.

Thank you much for sharing this concept so clearly. Often times I skip the subject with others since they seem to be fixed into what they have been taught that they are unwilling to scrutinize the scriptures or open their mind to new insights thru the Spirit.

[JohnnyRudick]

I do too!

That was your answer to Draven's Article of Faith #9

So in answer to your earlier question

". . .Are we to expect another modern day revelation from another prophet in the near future to help us understand what is not clear of modern day revelation today?"

The answer is

Yes.

Also

I showed you how the Scripture of the Bible prepares us for modern Revelation and even the coming forth of the Book of Mormon as a sign to verify this revelation.

It was not my intent to show how Jesus became a Son of Elohim only to show that we were all sons of God and Jesus is a god and we can become adopted by our older brother.

aj4u,

Hay man.

The Bible verse you gave in Gen 1:1 nor even two says that chaotic space was created out of nothing.

Check it out.

Sorry.

Bro. Rudick

[aj4u]

That was your answer to Draven's Article of Faith #9

So in answer to your earlier question

". . .Are we to expect another modern day revelation from another prophet in the near future to help us understand what is not clear of modern day revelation today?"

The answer is

Yes.

Also

I showed you how the Scripture of the Bible prepares us for modern Revelation and even the coming forth of the Book of Mormon as a sign to verify this revelation.

It was not my intent to show how Jesus became a Son of Elohim only to show that we were all sons of God and Jesus is a god and we can become adopted by our older brother.

I don't have a problem with God showing us new truth, but it still must pass certain tests. It will never go against the already written revealed word. God is not the author of confusion. As I mentioned, there have been many modern day prophets. How do we obey Scripture to try the spirits to make sure it is from God? What do we have to compare modern revelation to, and how can we confirm that it is from God? Some recommend prayer and then listening for an answer. G-d answers individual prayer. I believe that, but what if you can see clashes between modern revelation and the Bible? It seems pointless to pray and ask God if the clash is true or what clashes with the Bible. You would have to already believe it were to ask and get a confirmation. When the confirmation comes, how do you know that it can be trusted as well. Satan can give false signs and confirmations especially if it goes contrary to the ancient written word. Try to understand I am not trying to give you a hard time. I have been deceived and I am careful to obey Scripture by not believing every Spirit but try them to see if they be really from God. Edited May 18, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

The Scriptures for instance show God as a Spirit. "God is Spirit." The Scripture shows He is not flesh and bone. To say He is flesh and bone is like saying you believe He is Adam. That is reducing the Creator down to His creation from what I can understand from all I hear and read. Is that true? Do you believe God is Adam?

[Misshalfway]

The Scriptures for instance show God as a Spirit. "God is Spirit." The Scripture shows He is not flesh and bone. To say He is flesh and bone is like saying you believe He is Adam. That is reducing the Creator down to His creation from what I can understand from all I hear and read. Is that true? Do you believe God is Adam?

Heavens no. We don't believe God is Adam. We believe God is God and Adam is the first man on the earth along with his wife Eve. We do however believe that God is of flesh and bone and that this in no way diminishes his power or influence.

[JohnnyRudick]

I don't have a problem with God showing us new truth, but it still must pass certain tests. It will never go against the already written revealed word. God is not the author of confusion. As I mentioned, there have been many modern day prophets. How do we obey Scripture to try the spirits to make sure it is from God? What do we have to compare modern revelation to, and how can we confirm that it is from God? Some recommend prayer and then listening for an answer. G-d answers individual prayer. I believe that, but what if you can see clashes between modern revelation and the Bible? It seems pointless to pray and ask God if the clash is true or what clashes with the Bible. You would have to already believe it were to ask and get a confirmation. When the confirmation comes, how do you know that it can be trusted as well. Satan can give false signs and confirmations especially if it goes contrary to the ancient written word. Try to understand I am not trying to give you a hard time. I have been deceived and I am careful to obey Scripture by not believing every Spirit but try them to see if they be really from God.

I gotcha:)

Been there, Done that:rolleyes:

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

The Scriptures for instance show God as a Spirit. "God is Spirit." The Scripture shows He is not flesh and bone. To say He is flesh and bone is like saying you believe He is Adam. That is reducing the Creator down to His creation from what I can understand from all I hear and read. Is that true? Do you believe God is Adam?

Ditto to misshalfway

God is God Adam is Adam.

Been set off on that Rabbit trail before trying to justify it only to find. . .

Well, there is a lot of weird stuff out there.

And sometimes some of it can get started by things taken from what General Authorities of the Church may say.

But you gotta understand.

It ain't Scripture!!!

The Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit and He is God.

Is He Elohim?

No

Is He Jesus?

No

Is Elohim God?

Yes He is.

He is God the Father.

Is Jesus God?

Yes He is.

He is God the Son.

Is the Holy Ghost God?

Yes He is.

He is God the Holy Ghost.

John wrote that "God is Spirit and those that. . ."

He wrote that after the time that Jesus arose from the dead.

After Jesus appeared to them and said

Luke 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why

do thoughts arise in your hearts?

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself:

handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye

see me have.

Luke 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his

hands and his feet.

After all this He ascended up into heaven

Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he

went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye

gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from

you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him

go into heaven.

Now What happened to Jesus' body?

We have at least one God with a body.

The same body He took with Him He will come back with.

Did He just lay it down in some Heavenly Cloak Room?

Yes, When Jesus took on a body what did He do with His Spirit?

Did He just unzip it and put on His body?

No, He has His Spirit also.

We must not only worship him in the flesh but we must worship Him in Spirit also for He is also Spirit.

Well, you know.

I Love ya, ya know that don't ya?

Bro. Rudick

[Hemidakota]

27 pages and still plugging along...http://i.azjmp.com/0SbSY

[mikbone]

I haven't been following this thread very closely and was wondering if we have made any progress?

[Dravin]

Define progress. :)

[the Ogre]

Progress . . . oi me achin' head

[Islander]

Define progress. :)

Yep, my question exactly...

[ploomf]

I haven't been following this thread very closely and was wondering if we have made any progress?

Well there's no blood on the ground yet and nobody's reached through their computer screen to strangle one another so I guess we can consider that progress.

[Hemidakota]

Never a laugh button when you need it.

[Islander]

Never a laugh button when you need it.

hahaahaha!!! You are right!!!

[aj4u]

I AM TRYING TO STUDY SCRIPTURES AND ALL I CAN FIND ON LDS DOCTRINE AND IAM GETTING VERY CONFUSED. THE DOCTRINE DOESN'T SEEM TO LINE UP WITH THE BIBLE AND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. From what I can tell you don't believe that Jesus is the Father but you believe He is God but the book of Mormon says that Christ was the God and father of all things. Jesus in those verses says He is the "Father and the Son." And you tell me that Adam is not the God of flesh and bone you speak of but Brigham Young says he is in the journal of discourse vol. 1 pg 5 v 50. Will someone tell what this confusion is about? He is speaking of an Adam-God doctrine that totally clashes with the Bible and the Scriptures explanation of who God is. The Bible Scriptures say that God existed before the world began Jn. 17:5 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. Jesus also exsisted before the World began JN 1:1,2,3,10 and Co.1:15-17. God the Son spoke the worlds into existence: Jn. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. Jesus is Savior of our immortal soul Jn: 3:16 He is our interceding priest who offered Himself a sacrifice for us! He will speak the words that will raise us from the dead 1Thes 4:13-18 Jun 5:25 25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. He is the only Judge we must face after this life: Jn 5:22 22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Savation is only and only by grace through faith in Jesus. Every other endeavour will fail. It is a gift and cannot possible be earned or worked for according to the Bible Ep 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. I am understanding from Justice that salvation by grace must be coupled with works (Laws and ordinances and a legalistic observance and requirements so in the end salvation is not by grace, but connected to human effort invoving baptism, enduring til the end in keeping the commandments. If we can be saved that way, we don't need grace, and we could boast. This makes the difference on whether or not one gets eternal life.

Edited May 18, 2009 by aj4u