Believe, Works, and Faith

[aj4u]

aj4u... my question wasn't coded.... I honestly wanted to know your purpose. Why are you on a forum you so much disagree with. I honestly just wondered. I did not intend to offend just wanted an honest simple answer to an honest simple question........

Dear Prospectmom: Thank you for your reply. Your question, when I really think about it was a fair one. I should be apologizing to you. I did not mean to come off as one on the defensive, but I was not offended:p As I had mentioned, I am actually learning a lot on here even though I present challenges. I am looking to challenge my faith as well. Because of these challenges, my faith has grown stronger. By the way, I agree with a lot I hear as well, and sometimes I mention that I do. I am here not only to be offered things, but also to give. I hope that answers your question, and that you don't mind challenges. Edited May 13, 2009 by aj4u

[prospectmom]

why people do what they do is an interest of mine. I often learn from others and it helps me to look at myself objectivly........ or at least try :]

[aj4u]

why people do what they do is an interest of mine. I often learn from others and it helps me to look at myself objectivly........ or at least try :]

I had modified my previous message. It wasn't expressing fully what I was trying to say. Well, why didn't you say that in the first place? That is a horse of a different color. I can identify with that. I am like you in that sense. Why people do what they do is an interest of mine also, and I often learn from others and it helps me to look at myself objectivly as well.

Edited May 13, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

Sorry I miss them.

I have dialup and it takes "years" kist to bring up a page.

Not my confusers fault.

Just a bad line.

Someday I will be able to get a broadband card for my PC and then I will be able to enjoy youtube;)

Bro. Rudick

I hope so too. You will enjoy the speed and access.

[aj4u]

You know, you're right. I shouldn't answer questions for people. I should ask and let them answer. I really didn't have any ill-intent. I just assumed no one would answer this question yes. But, I shouldn't speak for you. I should let you answer.

Do you know everything?

Justice you agree with me? I must be wrong then. Just kidding:lol: I know all God wants me to know:D

[prospectmom]

I learn so much from others on htis site good and bad but everytime I do learn it helps me to look at myself and reflect on my belief's and behavior..... So I am constantly evolving and growing with every interaction. I get frustrated when some do not take my questions as just that and try to read into them. i am straight forward and have no agenda except to learn and grow...

Thanks aj4u for seeing that.

[prospectmom]

I enjoy challenges...... aj4u that is what keeps us growing... to think.. to process... to grow..

[Hemidakota]

Not picking on you Rameumptom just did not know who to bounce off of:p

No, :Hell" was not created for people.

People were never meant go to "Hell".

Sorry:D

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left

hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared

for the devil and his angels:. . .

But stuff happens:eek:

Isaiah 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning,

that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night,

till wine inflame them!

Isaiah 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe,

and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of

the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.

Isaiah 5:13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity,

because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are

famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.

Isaiah 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened

her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude,

and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Bro. Rudick

Joseph Smith, - receiving the Word of the Lord

[F]or, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

37. And they were thrust down, and thus came the devil and his angels;

38. And, behold, there is a place prepared for them from the beginning, which place is hell. (Revelation received Sept. 1830) D&C 29:36-38

[rameumptom]

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left

hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared

for the devil and his angels:. . .

Bro. Rudick

Except that the devil and his angels ARE people! The Book of Mormon tells us that if it weren't for the atonement, we would all become angels to the devil, or sons of perdition: " And our spirits must have become alike unto him, and we become devils, bangels to a cdevil, to be dshut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of elies..." (2 Ne 9:9)

So, YES, hell WAS prepared for people. At least it was prepared for all those who fully reject the atonement and become "devils, angels to a devil" shut out from the presence of God and the Godhead.

[aj4u]

All we can do is be sensitive to the Holy Spirit and share the seed of God's word. We can enter into each other’s labors where one plants another waters, but only God can give the increase. Jesus spoke of hell almost every time he spoke of heaven. Jesus said board is the gate and wide is the way that leads to destruction and many go that way because they reject the truth and believe a lie. Satan does that in many ways such as deceiving people into thinking that they have to do something to earn their salvation and many such things. . The Bible is the only map and plan of God’s will we have to judge what is false revelation. If Satan can, and he has, deceive people into thinking the Bible is not accurate or good enough, he can get people to refuse the love of the truth. When that happens, people have to believe something so God sends them a strong delusion so that they might believe a lie. Jesus has come to destroy the works of Satan, and I am praying to God for a sword to tear down the strong holds of Satan in my life and make a difference for Christ in my generation. So in the name of Jesus the Lord rebuke you Satan. You are a liar and the father of it. You have been exposed by God and will be destroyed in the place God had originally created hell for. Hell is for Satan and his demon force in Jesus’ name!

Edited May 13, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

People are people

Angels are angels

Jesus is God

Acorrding to the Bible the last time I checked.

[aj4u]

Except that the devil and his angels ARE people! The Book of Mormon tells us that if it weren't for the atonement, we would all become angels to the devil, or sons of perdition: " And our spirits must have become alike unto him, and we become devils, bangels to a cdevil, to be dshut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of elies..." (2 Ne 9:9)

So, YES, hell WAS prepared for people. At least it was prepared for all those who fully reject the atonement and become "devils, angels to a devil" shut out from the presence of God and the Godhead.

People are people

Angels are angels

Jesus is God

Acorrding to the Bible the last time I checked.

[aj4u]

Except that the devil and his angels ARE people! The Book of Mormon tells us that if it weren't for the atonement, we would all become angels to the devil, or sons of perdition: " And our spirits must have become alike unto him, and we become devils, bangels to a cdevil, to be dshut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of elies..." (2 Ne 9:9)

So, YES, hell WAS prepared for people. At least it was prepared for all those who fully reject the atonement and become "devils, angels to a devil" shut out from the presence of God and the Godhead.

People are people

Angels are angels

Jesus is God

According to the Bible the last time I checked.

[Guest]

I am definitely out of my league in these discussions. I find I cannot read all the posts word-for-word because it sets my head to spinning. So, why am I responding? Because, I feel that all these things being said in this here thread is a perfect example of Christians arguing over something when all sides are saying the same thing, achieving the same ends, but just cannot seem to see eye to eye because most parties do not have the complete picture or they are hung-up on the EXACT word used!

So, at the risk of sounding really stupid (since I for sure don't have the same depth of understanding of the scriptures as you all have), I am going to put my neck out here and present what I understand to be the Plan of Salvation I learned from the LDS church.

So, why LDS and not the others? Because, of all the Christian churches out there ONLY the LDS church have the complete picture. All Christian churches including non-denominational ones have the truth and they are all single in their desire to achieve "salvation" through Jesus Christ. They have faith, hope, belief, good works, everything, except the complete plan of salvation.

Therefore, it is impossible to resolve this thread where everybody sees eye to eye - because none of us here can agree on the complete plan of salvation as most of the players do not believe in it. Therefore, this thread will never lead you to a successful resolution. This is the main reason why in the early 1800's, a little boy named Joseph Smith sought out God in a grove to sort out all the confusion between the Christian churches. This argument you are having here has been there for centuries - and it will never be resolved.

Therefore, I will submit here the complete plan of salvation that I believe is true. Agree or disagree, it is up to you. Hopefully, this will explain "where some of us are coming from" so that you can just agree to disagree if you can't believe it. I will not quote any scriptures as most of these are not found in the Bible. And for those LDS folks out there, correct my mistakes, as I am still learning.

- We believe in eternal progression. This means, that mortal existence is NOT the beginning. We existed prior to mortality.

- To progress in our pre-mortal existence, Jesus and Lucifer presented 2 plans. Jesus' plan was to give us a mortal existence without knowledge of the plan so that we may have free choice as to how we live our lives. Lucifer's plan was to make it so that our state of being will only lead to one path, thereby, guaranteeing the outcome and stripping out choice. God chose Jesus' plan, a war insued and 1/3 of the souls followed Lucifer, the rest followed Jesus.

- Jesus' plan then is to create earth, put man in it, and give him free choice. The way he lives his life will determine which kingdom he inherits. Celestial Kingdom is the highest of glories where we live with God our Father and Jesus. Terrestrial Kingdom is the middle glory where we get visits from Jesus but not live with him. Telestial Kingdom is the lowest of glories where we are ministered by the Holy Spirit. Telestial Kingdom is still better than mortal existence. And then there's Outer Darkness which is the home of Lucifer. For more information on what all these glories are, you can go to wikipedia. It is not the best source, but it will do.

- And because Jesus knows us all before we are born on earth, he knew that we would need a Savior to get us back on the program. And, of course, as it is his plan, he gets to be the one to save us all. His birth, death, and resurrection shows us all the basics of the Plan. If we follow it, then we stay on-board with the plan.

- Every person then who is born on earth - including Timothy McVeigh - has made the choice to follow Jesus in the pre-mortal life and therefore, will be resurrected. Our faith in Jesus and our actions on earth will determine what we inherit in the afterlife.

- After mortal death, we get to stay in the Spirit World where we learn more about the things of God. In the Spirit World, we all keep our desires and wants of mortal existence, the only difference is our bodies will be in perfect form. If we have not heard of Jesus in mortal life, we get to learn of him here. Spirit Wold has 2 levels - Paradise and Prison - Timothy McVeigh is probably in Spirit Prison. In Spirit Prison the devil is still present to lure away the souls. People in Spirit Paradise still continue to do missionary works to the spirits in Prison to help them find the path to Christ. Those who have not received the ordinances (baptism, sealing, etc.) may still receive it in Prison by virtue of proxy (mortal beings baptized in their name).

- After the millenium, we will all head to the kingdom that we inherit based on what we have achieved in mortal and spirit world existence.

Okay, this is really just a bird's eye view of the whole thing. If you're interested in all this in more detail, go here.

So, back to this thread:

Take the word SALVATION and place it in what I have presented above. Where does it belong in the plan? Is it resurrection? Or is it achieving Spirit Paradise? Or, is Salvation acheiving the highest Celestial Kingdom?

Because, they are all different and have different requirements. And I have a very strong feeling that that's why AJ4U and Justice cannot agree on anything because one is probably talking about one stage in the plan while the other is on a completely different stage.

And then there's HELL - which one do you consider hell? Spirit Prison? Telestial Kingdom? or is it Outer Darkness?

And then there's the word WORKS - what do you mean by that? Ordinances? Or just being good all around?

And then there's the discussion on the Faith formula. Now here I think you all are nitpicking. FAITH and WORK come hand in hand. It doesn't matter which comes first the chicken or the egg... what matters is there is no egg without a chicken and there is no chicken without the egg. PERIOD.

Okay, I'm gonna let y'all continue without my rookie interference now... :-)

Edited May 13, 2009 by anatess

[aj4u]

I learn so much from others on htis site good and bad but everytime I do learn it helps me to look at myself and reflect on my belief's and behavior..... So I am constantly evolving and growing with every interaction. I get frustrated when some do not take my questions as just that and try to read into them. i am straight forward and have no agenda except to learn and grow...

Thanks aj4u for seeing that.

I feel like am looking in a mirror. I feel the same way. I feel that I need to check everything out before I receive it. I believe Jesus meant what He said when He taught us to pray. "Our Father...Lead us not into temptation deliver us from evil..." We actually need to ask in pray that God deliver us from evil. I went a step further when I was in a cult. I pray Lord deliver me from deception. It is written, that we shouldn't believe every spirit and that we need to test them according to Scripture. Jesus also said beware of false prophets. I didn't do that. I tried, but the deception over took me. I thought why should I accept David Berg as an end-time prophet. A member of the group said because he is written in and prophesied in the Bible. Really, where??? She showed me Ezekiel 37 where it speaks of the Davidic kingdom, and where God said he would raise up David in the last days to lead his people and I knew it wasn’t speaking of King David of old. I felt safe and secure. I was in the move of God’s people. David Berg was a natural born Jewish man. Everything made sense. But it took several years, and God honored my pray by revealing the deception. If we don’t pray that God deliver us from evil and if we don’t test the spirits, or watch out for false prophets in careful pray, we will get suck in big time. Jesus means what He says and says what He means. Edited May 13, 2009 by aj4u

[Justice]

This is where we need to be careful when we teach others of our beliefs.

- To progress in our pre-mortal existence, Jesus and Lucifer presented 2 plans.

There was only 1 plan presented, and it was Father in Heaven's plan. Jesus did not have a plan of His own. He wanted to follow the Father's will in all things.

Lucifer proposed a change to Father's plan that he felt would allow all to receive exaltaion.

I saw other comments I'd make because I don't think you and I understand the Plan of Salvation exactly the same. But, I chose to only point out that one difference.

Having said that, I completely agree with you about when LDS and non-LDS are engaged in discussions. The additional scripture and living revelation we enjoy often is not found very clearly in the Bible. It makes it hard to agree on most things. This is why I suggested haivng open hearts and minds, but that was overlooked.

Edited May 14, 2009 by Justice
spelling

[Justice]

Jesus also said beware of false prophets.

He said "by their fruit ye shall know them."

I'm guessing this David did not have good fruit?

[Moksha]

Jesus gave us the two greatest commandments for a reason - he wanted us to follow them. I think Christianity requires an action oriented approach due to the heavy emphasis on love and charity that require us to provide service and sustinence to those in need. To me this way of Jesus seems as important as professing our belief.

[aj4u]

Jesus gave us the two greatest commandments for a reason - he wanted us to follow them. I think Christianity requires an action oriented approach due to the heavy emphasis on love and charity that require us to provide service and sustinence to those in need. To me this way of Jesus seems as important as professing our belief.

I couldn't agree more. By the way, Love is Charity.

[JohnnyRudick]

Joseph Smith, - receiving the Word of the Lord

[F]or, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

37. And they were thrust down, and thus came the devil and his angels;

38. And, behold, there is a place prepared for them from the beginning, which place is hell. (Revelation received Sept. 1830) D&C 29:36-38

Exactly:)

A three dimensional picture is always better:D

At this time I was only trying to give Scripture everyone should appreciate.

Bro. Rudick

[aj4u]

He said "by their fruit ye shall know them."

I'm guessing this David did not have good fruit?

It matters not what man says about man but what God says about him. Didn't you know that?

[JohnnyRudick]

Except that the devil and his angels ARE people! The Book of Mormon tells us that if it weren't for the atonement, we would all become angels to the devil, or sons of perdition: " And our spirits must have become alike unto him, and we become devils, bangels to a cdevil, to be dshut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of elies..." (2 Ne 9:9)

So, YES, hell WAS prepared for people. At least it was prepared for all those who fully reject the atonement and become "devils, angels to a devil" shut out from the presence of God and the Godhead.

OK smart alack:D

You sound like me 30 years ago:p

You are exactly right but I was looking at it from a post scrimmage in heaven and a post Gen. 1&2 perspective.

The perspective of most dispensations given to Paul and even Peter can see from.

Bro. Rudick

Edited May 13, 2009 by JohnnyRudick

[JohnnyRudick]

All we can do is be sensitive to the Holy Spirit and share the seed of God's word. We can enter into each other’s labors where one plants another waters, but only God can give the increase. Jesus spoke of hell almost every time he spoke of heaven. Jesus said board is the gate and wide is the way that leads to destruction and many go that way because they reject the truth and believe a lie. Satan does that in many ways such as deceiving people into thinking that they have to do something to earn their salvation and many such things. . The Bible is the only map and plan of God’s will we have to judge what is false revelation. If Satan can, and he has, deceive people into thinking the Bible is not accurate or good enough, he can get people to refuse the love of the truth. When that happens, people have to believe something so God sends them a strong delusion so that they might believe a lie. Jesus has come to destroy the works of Satan, and I am praying to God for a sword to tear down the strong holds of Satan in my life and make a difference for Christ in my generation. So in the name of Jesus the Lord rebuke you Satan. You are a liar and the father of it. You have been exposed by God and will be destroyed in the place God had originally created hell for. Hell is for Satan and his demon force in Jesus’ name!

No one defends the Bible to be the word of God as do most Mormons.

Many of us understand the history of attacks on the manuscripts the Bible is based.

We know that God preserved what He wanted to preserve in the form He wanted to preserve it to bring about the spiritual revolution which God placed the young boy Joseph Smith to Restore the Authority of His Church and the Sign of it's authenticity not only being the only Bible based Church on Earth at the time but the bringing forth of the Book of Mormon to seal the Testimony to the World of the Dispensation of the fullness of times ending the Dispensations of Paul to the Gentiles and Peter to the Jews.

The Book of Mormon shows that God is faithful to even those who He leads across the seas to a land of promise.

Speaking not only to the Jews of Asia but to His remnants around the world if they will give heed to His voice.

We are today at the same spot the Jews were in Palestine at the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles.

Was Moses the end of the story of has God more in store for His people.

Then Peter had a message but Paul was expanding the message.

Can we accept Paul? many asked.

If the church had not been cut off this dispensation would have been brought in sooner but it was put on hold til the Bible could prepare the world for Joseph Smith.

You do not have to believe me but I ask yo to give us an ear and at least learn of the account of the restoration of the Gospel from the viewpoint of a Mormon and not Bible correctors at heart as many of them who lead the mob to fight against the Church are but do not say so openly.

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

This is where we need to be careful when we teach others of our beliefs.

There was only 1 plan presented, and it was Father in Heaven's plan. Jesus did not have a plan of His own. He wanted to follow the Father's will in all things.

Lucifer proposed a change to Father's plan that he felt would allow all to receive exaltaion.

I saw other comments I'd make because I don't think you and I understand the Plan of Salvation exactly the same. But, I chose to only point out that one difference.

Having said that, I completely agree with you about when LDS and non-LDS are engaged in discussions. The additional scripture and living revelation we enjoy often if not found very clearly in the Bible. It makes it hard to agree on most things. This is why I suggested haivng open hearts and minds, but that was overlooked.

I think we beat that poor horse to death:deadhorse: just a few weeks back didn't we:p

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

Originally Posted by Justice View Post

He said "by their fruit ye shall know them."

I'm guessing this David did not have good fruit?

It matters not what man says about man but what God says about him. Didn't you know that?

:confused:ok?