The tripartite model and species/sex determination

[mikbone]

The tripartite model suggests that the soul of man moves through different stages of existence.

Intelligence → Spirit → Physical Body

The intelligence part is described in D&C 93:29-30 as an eternal entity that is neither created nor made.

Heavenly Father and Mother then were able to use these intelligences and convert them in to spirit children.

Through procreation, our mortal parents unite with the power of God to place the spirit of man into mortal tabernacles.

This is a very rough outline, please make comments, suggestions, corrections where appropriate.

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Anyway, where in the model of progression do you think species/sex determination takes place?

I have always thought that our trials and decisions as an intelligence determined the species and sex that we would be assigned to during our spiritual creation.

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Finally, are we of the same species as Jehovah and Elohim?

[Maya]

That sounds about what I think.

I also heard/red somewhere, that some believe that we have a spiritual copy in Heaven and in the end this body and that spiritual one will unite IF we are doing things right.

About sex I think it depends on what kind of intellectuals we are put together of. There are certain intellectual things that children are born with that are with the spiritbody. Anyone who has had both boys and girls can see the difference. That is why some may be born in wrong bodies...

I listened to Back Yard Professor ipods about cvantum pysics and there was mentioned that they have found something even smaller than before. Something that has a gloom or shines a very tiny partikler and also some dark particles. Those particles are intellectual living things. To me it seems that we may be made of these small particles. Everytime we do something good the shiny ones fill us ... everyone ahs seen those taht come from Temple shine. If we do something wrong the balck particles fill us and our shape darkens just like it does when you meet bad peopel they seem dark in excistence.

About Gods justice it was said somewhere that God has to be just as if He is not all these small intellicenties begin to rebell and destroy the world. That is why JK was needed to suffer, to pay the bill. He justified the mercy of God in a way these small intellignces agreed on.

[mikbone]

Joseph Smith, Sermon delivered at Nauvoo, Ill. on Sunday, March 28, 1841

Source: McIntire Minute Book

Spirit of Man Eternal - Meaning of Abr. 3:22

he says the spirit or the intelligence of men are self Existent principles he before the foundation this Earth--& quotes the Lords question to Job "where wast thou when I laid the foundation of the Earth" Evidence that Job was in Existing somewhere at that time he says God is Good & all his acts is for the benifit of infereir intelligences-- God saw that those inteligences had Not power to Defend themselves against those that had a tabernicle therefore the Lord Calls them togather in Counsel & agrees to form them tabernicles so that he might Gender the Spirit & the tabernicle togather so as to create sympathy for their fellowman--

Edited May 19, 2009 by mikbone

[Maya]

Oh and it also said taht everything is made of these small intelignces even trees adn grass... makes me think again before I step on an ant again... poor inteligncecs...

[Moksha]

I have always thought that our trials and decisions as an intelligence determined the species and sex that we would be assigned to during our spiritual creation.

I would assume then that the intelligences which became men chose to be either less valient or more unholy during those trials and decisions. At least that is the implication I have learned from this board when it comes to the roles of men and women. Because of those past flaws, men need to hold their Priesthood in order to compensate from their inferior spiritual nature compared to women. Women on the other hand have been blessed with having children, kitchens and the ability become Celestial Wives if they remain true.

[mikbone]

I hope this dosen't turn into a garage vs. kitchen debate.

[Guest Apostate]

I've always heard that our genders were created in the Pre-existence and not here. I've never heard that the less valiant or however it was phrased became girls and the more valiant became boys. Boys I believe were boys in the Pre-Existence, just as girls were girls.

I've read in the 2nd volume of "Studies In Scriptures", that in the Pre-Existence there was every manor of sin and vice, safe murder and sexual sin.

[Bluejay]

Hi, Mikbone.

Finally, are we of the same species as Jehovah and Elohim?

What do you mean by "species?"

[mikbone]

Hi, Mikbone.

What do you mean by "species?"

Howdy,

And thanks for askin!

Dictornary.com

1. a class of individuals having some common characteristics or qualities; distinct sort or kind.

2. Biology. the major subdivision of a genus or subgenus, regarded as the basic category of biological classification, composed of related individuals that resemble one another, are able to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of another species.

If the assumption that I made in the original post has merit, then:

All forms of life that we now percieve on Earth; plants, bacteria, animals, humans, etc. were spirit versions of what they were before becoming mortal. And the decisions that they made while they were "intelligences" had a bearing on the determination of the species of spirit that they would become. For example my pet dog is a dog because when she was an "intelligence" she decided that she wanted to be a female dog and chose a pathway that would lead to that species.

If you compare my life to Jesus' life. You might come to the conclusion that the gap between He and I is as great as the Gap between me and a chimp.

[talisyn]

Wow, this is certainly an interesting discussion O.O

[Ezequiel]

for some reason that source seems a litle iffy for me. I dunno, things are spelled all weird and too many capitalized words...its a litle strange. Not to mention that its like - a lonesome blank webpage floating in cyberspace by itself...

However speaking of the subject, I believe that our spiritual bodies were created at one point or another by our Heavenly Parents from the already existing intelligences. I dunno when gender was decided, but I suppose it would have to be very early in the creation of our spirt bodies. Gender is a very defining part of our entities, and it wouldn't make sense to let that be decided in the womb of our mothers.

I think its all so interesting....

Here is a thought - If heavenly father's honor is His power, and He is able to command the elements themselves through this power to create and move and whatnot, then where would the Heavenly Mother come in at? Does she need to carry spirits in her womb for 9 months too???

Edited May 20, 2009 by Ezequiel

[mikbone]

for some reason that source seems a litle iffy for me. I dunno, things are spelled all weird and too many capitalized words...its a litle strange. Not to mention that its like - a lonesome blank webpage floating in cyberspace by itself...

That source is the best free copy of the original document. It comes from the McIntire Minute Book that was transcribed during Joseph Smith's speech. The spelling format and punctuation is off because correcting the "errors" could actually confuse the original intent of the author.

The Parallel Joseph Is by far the best source that we have of Joseph Smith's spoken words.

Does she need to carry spirits in her womb for 9 months too???

I seriously doubt that it will take 9 months.

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Based upon this alone I would assume that spirt childbirth is much more simple than mortal childbirth. You figure that a normal male sperm count is 20 million per millimeter, why can't a celestial female produce a much more numerous amount of eggs?

But she is definitely our spirit mother...

John Taylor — A “hymn written also for the dedication by John Taylor eulogized Joseph Smith in these words: Of noble seed–of heavenly birth” (The Development of the Doctrine of Preexistence, 1830-1844 by Charles R. Harrell Fn, BYU Studies, vol. 28 (1988), Number 2 - Spring 1988 89.)

Lorenzo Snow — We were born in the image of God our Father; He begot us like unto Himself. There is the nature of deity in the composition of our spiritual organization; in our spiritual birth our Father transmitted to us the capabilities, powers and faculties which He Himself possessed-as much so as the child on its mother’s bosom possesses, although in an undeveloped state, the faculties, powers, and susceptibilities of its parent. (14 January 1872, JD, 14:302.)

Joseph F. Smith - In a statement of the First Presidency: “man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father,”

George Albert Smith - “Children are the offspring of God, their spirits were begotten in the holy heavens of our Father, and they are given to us for our blessing.” (Conference Reports, October 1907, p. 36.)

Joseph Fielding Smith - “If we are his offspring, then how did we become such, if we had no mother to give us spirit birth?” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 3: 143.)

Harold B. Lee - “That great hymn “O My Father” puts it correctly when Eliza R. Snow wrote, “In the heav’ns are parents single? No, the thought makes reason stare! Truth is reason; truth eternal tells me I’ve a mother there.” Born of a Heavenly Mother, sired by a Heavenly Father, we knew Him, we were in His house” (Harold B. Lee, The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, edited by Clyde J. Williams [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1996], 22.)

Spencer W. Kimball - “You [women] are daughters of God. You are precious. You are made in the image of our heavenly Mother.” (Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, edited by Edward L. Kimball [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1982], 25.)

Ezra Taft Benson - “It is a fundamental of our religion that we had a pre-earthly existence. That we are the literal offspring of God has been a cardinal teaching of the Lord’s prophets in all ages.” (Ezra Taft Benson, The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988], 23 - 24.)

Howard W. Hunter - “The brotherhood of man is literal. We are all of one blood and the literal spirit offspring of our eternal Heavenly Father.” (Howard W. Hunter, The Teachings of Howard W. Hunter, edited by Clyde J. Williams [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1997], 10.)

Gordon B. Hinkley - In a statement of the First Presidency “The Family”: “Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny.”

Edited May 20, 2009 by mikbone

[Maya]

I would assume then that the intelligences which became men chose to be either less valient or more unholy during those trials and decisions. At least that is the implication I have learned from this board when it comes to the roles of men and women. Because of those past flaws, men need to hold their Priesthood in order to compensate from their inferior spiritual nature compared to women. Women on the other hand have been blessed with having children, kitchens and the ability become Celestial Wives if they remain true.

Moksha please dont feel/think that way!

I think we either had a possibility to choose if we wanted to bear children or have presthood or we were made inteligences and the sex was given after the intellignces we wanted to have. Men are no less spiritual than women. For women it may be easier to hear the whispers and men can be pretty stubborn sometimes (ofcourse women are not stubborn they are only strong willing:D). Wise man listens to the woman and wise woman litens to preasthood. A wise man also searches for advice from the woman and a wise woman ... endures the decition.

[Bluejay]

Hi, Mikbone.

What do you mean by "species?"

Howdy,

And thanks for askin!

Dictornary.com

1. a class of individuals having some common characteristics or qualities; distinct sort or kind.

2. Biology. the major subdivision of a genus or subgenus, regarded as the basic category of biological classification, composed of related individuals that resemble one another, are able to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of another species.

So, I'm a biologist, and the reason I asked you is because the term "species" is a vacuous and unstable term in biology. The field of biology is increasingly of the opinion that the term is only useful as an aid for our work, and doesn't really constitute a meaningful categorization scheme for organisms.

But, since God is thought to have given birth to us, then we should probably be considered the same species as God, just as your own children are considered the same species as you. But then, there's no way of knowing for sure if the same logic applies to spiritual births.

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If you compare my life to Jesus' life. You might come to the conclusion that the gap between He and I is as great as the Gap between me and a chimp.

Well, this depends on what criteria you're using to define your scale from chimp to human to God.

If you're talking about cognitive ability, then I submit that "species" is probably an inappropriate term to define the categories.

If you're talking about spirituality, then I would also discourage the use of the term "species."

If you're talking about genetic differences, then we'd need to wonder whether God has genetics and whether our genetics are even comparable to His. There are just too many unknowns about how our physical being, how spiritual qualities translate into physical qualities: anything we could come up with would be pure speculation. That's not to say we shouldn't try to come up with it (I think it might be interesting): but, as a scientist, I'd have a difficult time trying to make an authoritative statement out of it.

[mikbone]

But, since God is thought to have given birth to us, then we should probably be considered the same species as God, just as your own children are considered the same species as you. But then, there's no way of knowing for sure if the same logic applies to spiritual births.

Exactly.

Jehovah is the only begotten in the flesh. He seems to be different than us in many ways.

John 1:1-3

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jehovah was there before the rest of us. He was already God. He created the physical world that we know.

John 20:17

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Jesus always maintained that there was a difference between himself and us.

Well, this depends on what criteria you're using to define your scale from chimp to human to God.

If you're talking about cognitive ability, then I submit that "species" is probably an inappropriate term to define the categories.

Abraham 3:19

And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith, footnote 8, p. 353, Note by Elder B. H. Roberts commenting on Joseph Smith's King Follet Discourse

It is the direct statement in the Book of Abraham - accepted by the Church as scripture - that there are differences in the intelligences that exist, that some are more intelligent than others; and that God is "more intelligent than them all".* I believe that this means more than that God is more intelligent than any other one of the intelligences.* It means that he is more intelligent than all of the other intelligences combined.* His intelligence is greater than that of the mass.

So Jehovah is more intelligent than the rest of humanity combined. It was also pretty evident from his mortal ministry that he could fortell the future. I can't do that.

If you're talking about spirituality, then I would also discourage the use of the term "species."

Why would you? No other human came even close to his spirituality. He was able to provide an atonement and was also able to resurrect himself. He seems to be pretty different than us... Oh yeah, and I sin, lots.

If you're talking about genetic differences, then we'd need to wonder whether God has genetics and whether our genetics are even comparable to His. There are just too many unknowns about how our physical being, how spiritual qualities translate into physical qualities: anything we could come up with would be pure speculation. That's not to say we shouldn't try to come up with it (I think it might be interesting): but, as a scientist, I'd have a difficult time trying to make an authoritative statement out of it.

I'll agree with ya here. Just not enough information. But it is pretty evident that the creation of Jehovah was radically different than the creation of you or I.

Edited May 21, 2009 by mikbone

[Bluejay]

Hi, Mikbone.

Sorry for the delay.

Jesus always maintained that there was a difference between himself and us...

...So Jehovah is more intelligent than the rest of humanity combined. It was also pretty evident from his mortal ministry that he could fortell the future. I can't do that.

I won't argue that Jehovah isn't different from us. Obviously, he is.

But, you'll need to define your criteria for being a different species before we can determine if he is a different species. Otherwise, I don't know what can realistically be said about it.

For instance, I could make the case that, because Ray Charles was blind, had dark skin, hair and eyes, and could play the piano very well; and because I can see, have light skin, light hair and light-colored eyes, and can only play two easy hymns on the piano---Ray Charles and I are different species.

It all depends on what you will accept as sufficient distinction to merit designation as a separate species. Once you've set your criteria, if Jesus fits them, nobody can argue against you except to disagree that your criteria are meaningful.

I would be happy to discuss meaningful criteria for distinguishing species, but I'm not sure the discussion could ever come up with a real answer, because subjective criteria are essentially arbitrary.

[mikbone]

I agree that a taxonomy discussion is going to be essentially fruitless. We can't scientifically study our Gods.

I asked the question about the species of God because in my mind there seems to be a vast difference between them and us. Some have labeled this difference as an ontological gap.

Quickly and without quoting scripture or Joseph Smith Sermons, I'll state my questions and concerns.

As man is God once was, As God is man may be. - Lorenzo Snow

Is this statement valid? Was God once like I am now? Because in no way would I correlate my (or any other mortals) life with Jesus Christs' mortal ministry.

From what I read, it appears that the atonement that Christ performed is what essentially separates us from the Gods. Apparently Elohim also performed an atonement. And it appears that the Holy Ghost will have the opportunity to also serve in the office of Messiah.

The atonement created the light of Christ. The atonement is what granted Jehovah and Elohim their honor and power.

In my mind there are only a couple options:

1)God is different than us. He is GOD, and we will never be able to become as he is. We might be able to become gods. But essentially we are a different species.

2)We can become like God but we are way behind them in the eternal progression model. Thus if we are to become like God we will have to pass through a similar type of trial and existence that they have.

Personally, I believe that Lorenzo Snow was absolutely correct and that we are of the same species as God. I just wanted to see if anyone else realized this discrepancy.

Edited May 22, 2009 by mikbone

[Bluejay]

Hi, Mikbone.

In my mind there are only a couple options:

1)God is different than us. He is GOD, and we will never be able to become as he is. We might be able to become gods. But essentially we are a different species.

2)We can become like God but we are way behind them in the eternal progression model. Thus if we are to become like God we will have to pass through a similar type of trial and existence that they have.

Okay, I see where you're going with this.

My father has been thinking along the same lines recently (he and I have this kind of discussion all the time).

What would we be able to become if not gods like Elohim?

Would we really be allowed to create our own worlds?

Would we have spirit children of our own? Who would atone for their sins?

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Apparently Elohim also performed an atonement.

I have never really subscribed to this idea. Where does it come from, other than John 5:19?

[mikbone]

I have never really subscribed to this idea. Where does it come from, other than John 5:19?

The King Follett Discourse, or as I prefer to call it, Joseph Smith's final general conference sermon.

General Conference of the Church at Nauvoo, Ill. on Sunday Afternoon April 7, 1844

Times & Seasons Minutes

what did Jesus say? (mark it elder Rigdon!) Jesus said, as the Father hat power in himself, even so hath the Son power; to do what? why what the Father did, that answer is obvious; in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again.---- If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible; the scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom, all the combined powers of earth and hell together, to refute it. Here then is eternal life, to know the only wise and true God. You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves; to be kings and priests to God the same as all Gods have done; by going from a small degree to another, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you are able to sit in glory as doth those who sit enthroned in everlasting power; and I want you to know that God in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me;

What did Jesus do? why I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father, so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory, so that Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before; it is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said. When you climb a ladder, you must begin at the bottom and go on until you learn the last principle; it will be a great while before you have learned the last. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it is a great thing to learn salvation beyond the grave. I suppose I am not allowed to go into an investigation of any thing that is not contained in the Bible, and I think there are so many wise men here, who would put me to death for treason; so I shall turn commentator to-day;

Edited May 23, 2009 by mikbone