Jesus as the Father

[Justice]

You have to remember that "God" is a rank of exaltation, not a name.

Elohim is God

Jehovah is God

Elohim is not Jehovah

Jehovah is not Elohim

Jehovah is the Son of Elohim, thus they are both God.

Jehovah was the God of the Old Testament, and He was the mortal Christ in the New Testament, born the Son of God. He prayed to Elohim while on earth. Elohim spoke from the heavens of His approval of His Son while He was mortal.

The Son subjected His will completely to the Father's (Elohim's), thus they are one in unity and will.

[JohnnyRudick]

You have to remember that "God" is a rank of exaltation, not a name.

Elohim is God

Jehovah is God

Elohim is not Jehovah

Jehovah is not Elohim

Jehovah is the Son of Elohim, thus they are both God.

Jehovah was the God of the Old Testament, and He was the mortal Christ in the New Testament, born the Son of God. He prayed to Elohim while on earth. Elohim spoke from the heavens of His approval of His Son while He was mortal.

The Son subjected His will completely to the Father's (Elohim's), thus they are one in unity and will.

Exactly Right;)

Also it must be remembered that there is a difference between The Spirit of the Lord, and the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Spirit as used today should more closely be referring to the Spirit of the Lord as apposed to the Holy Ghost which is a personage of Spirit.

The Spirit of the Lord, a force which proceeds forth from the Father.

Huh:confused:

That's OK.

Don't worry about it.

There won't be a test:p

Bro. Rudick

[bytebear]

The Spirit of the Lord, a force which proceeds forth from the Father.

Actually, it proceeds from Jesus Christ (unless you were referring to Christ as the Father there). After all he is the Lord. It is also called the Light of Christ and is given to all freely. But you are correct, it is not the Holy Ghost, which is given only by the laying on of hands from one with authority.

[JohnnyRudick]

Actually, it proceeds from Jesus Christ (unless you were referring to Christ as the Father there). After all he is the Lord. It is also called the Light of Christ and is given to all freely. But you are correct, it is not the Holy Ghost, which is given only by the laying on of hands from one with authority.

Right.

If I had that come to mind (Light of Christ) not sure why it did not pop up there in that context I would have been spared that blunder.

Wrong Father was I speaking:eek:

OK, what I mean:confused: If I had thought "Light of Christ" and I should have, I would have never worded it that way:p

Thanks:D

My bad:(

Still no test:D

Bro. Rudick

[Hemidakota]

Some further clarity regarding the LIGHT OF CHRIST by President Joseph Fielding Smith:

THE OMNIPRESENT HOLY SPIRIT. The Holy Ghost should not be confused with the Spirit which fills the immensity of space and which is everywhere present. This other Spirit is impersonal and has no size, nor dimension; it proceeds forth from the presence of the Father and the Son and is in all things. We should speak of the Holy Ghost as a personage as "he" and this other Spirit as "it," although when we speak of the power or gift of the Holy Ghost we may properly say "it."

THE SPIRIT OF JESUS CHRIST. The Holy Ghost, as we are taught in our modern revelation, is the third member in the Godhead and a personage of Spirit. These terms are used synonymously: Spirit of God, Spirit of the Lord, Spirit of Truth, Holy Spirit, Comforter; all having reference to the Holy Ghost. The same terms largely are used in relation to the Spirit of Jesus Christ, also called the Light of Truth, Light of Christ, Spirit of God, and Spirit of the Lord; and yet they are separate and distinct things. We have a great deal of confusion because we have not kept that clearly in our minds. The Lord revealed this to Joseph Smith:

"For the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is light, and whatsoever is light is Spirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ. And the Spirit giveth light to every man that cometh into the world; and the Spirit enlighteneth every man through the world, that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit. And everyone that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father. And the Father teacheth him of the covenant which he has renewed and confirmed upon you, which is confirmed upon you for your sakes, and not for your sakes only, but for the sake of the whole world.

"And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin. And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me. For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin. And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me."

Moroni tells us the same thing: "For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for everything which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God."

EVERY MAN RECEIVES THE LIGHT OF CHRIST. We do not find this doctrine so clearly defined in the New Testament as in the Doctrine and Covenants and the Book of Mormon. But we discover this: The Lord has not left men (when they are born into this world) helpless, groping to find the light and truth, but every man that is born into the world is born with the right to receive the guidance, the instruction, the counsel of the Spirit of Christ, or Light of Truth, sometimes called the Spirit of the Lord in our writings.

THE LIGHT OF CHRIST ACTS AS OUR CONSCIENCE. If a man who has never heard the gospel will hearken to the teachings and manifestations of the Spirit of Christ, or the Light of Truth, which come to him, often spoken of as conscience-every man has a conscience and knows more or less when he does wrong, and the Spirit guides him if he will hearken to its whisperings-it will lead him eventually to the fulness of the gospel. That is, he is guided by the Light, and when the gospel comes he will be ready to receive it. This is what the Lord tells us in section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants.

This Spirit of Truth, or Light of Christ, also has other functions. We read this in the revelation: "This . . . glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ, his Son—He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth; Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made. As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made; As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made; And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand. And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings; Which light proceedeth forth, from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space.

LIGHT OF CHRIST IS THE POWER OF GOD. This Light of Christ is not a personage. It has no body. I do not know what it is as far as substance is concerned; but it fills the immensity of space and emanates from God. It is the light by which the worlds are controlled, by which they are made. It is the light of the sun and all other bodies. It is the light which gives life to vegetation. It quickens the understanding of men, and has these various functions as set forth in these verses.

It is: "The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things."

This is our explanation in regard to the Spirit of Christ, or Light of Truth, which every man receives and is guided by. Unless a man had the blessings that come from this Spirit, his mind would not be quickened; there would be no vegetation grow; the worlds would not stay in their orbits; because it is through this Spirit of Truth, this Light of Truth, according to this revelation, that all these things are done.

INVESTIGATORS LED BY LIGHT OF CHRIST. The Lord has given to "every man that cometh into the world," the guidance of the Light of Truth, or Spirit of Jesus Christ, and if a man will hearken to this Spirit he will be led to the truth and will recognize it and will accept it when he hears it. We have seen this demonstrated thousands of times, where men were led to investigate and have had the desire to investigate in spite of the prejudices and traditions which they were taught in the world.

If they refuse to come unto him, then he calls them wicked and they are under the bondage of sin. It seems to me that when a person declares that he is satisfied with his religion and therefore does not care to investigate, it is evidence that he has not hearkened to the Light of Truth which was given him; else he would not have been satisfied with the false religion which he has and would be seeking the truth.

THE SPIRIT POURED OUT ON ALL FLESH. The inspiration which was promised to all flesh by the Lord through the prophecy of Joel, is not the promise of the Holy Ghost, but the promise of the guidance of the Light of Christ, or Spirit of Truth, which is given to every man who comes into the world. 41 It is through this Spirit that the inspiration comes to those who are not members of the Church. This Spirit has been poured out and is the active agency by which the great discoveries in these modern times have been accomplished. It is this Spirit which the Lord declares he will withdraw from the world, and which he said to Noah would not always "strive with man," and not the Holy Ghost which they never had. It is this Spirit which led Columbus in his discoveries.

It is this Spirit which the Savior speaks of in the revelations which is given to guide men. When he speaks of the Holy Ghost being their guide, and that this gift will come to the Gentiles, the necessary implication is that the Gentiles will have been cleansed and baptized so that they can receive these blessings.

THE TRUE GUARDIAN ANGEL. We have often heard of guardian angels attending us and many patriarchs have spoken of such protection. There are times no doubt when some unseen power directs us and leads us from harm. However, the true guardian angel given to every man who comes into the world is the Light of Truth or Spirit of Christ.

The Holy Ghost is given to faithful members of the Church to guard and direct them: theirs is the privilege, through their faithfulness, to have such guidance and protection.

There is no angel following us about like a stenographer taking notes and making a record of our lives. The Lord has a more perfect way by which the acts of our lives are recorded.

THE HOLY GHOST WORKS THROUGH THE LIGHT OF CHRIST. The person of the Holy Ghost can work through the Spirit of Christ that permeates everything, or he can work by personal contacts. The Holy Ghost can act through some other influence or force. This may be a crude illustration, and yet I think it answers our purpose. We have in this building a young lady sitting down at the switchboard. Someone on this floor wants to get in touch with someone on the second floor; somebody else in another part of the building wants to talk with someone in another building; and so on. They are all connected with the parties they want to talk to. In a similar way the Holy Ghost could speak to someone here, someone over there, and someone way off in some other part of the country, even in a foreign land, and each receive the message intended for him. That is not hard to understand when we think of telegraphy. They send several messages over a wire at the same time. Radio stations send messages of different wave lengths all over the earth.

[JohnnyRudick]

Some further clarity regarding the LIGHT OF CHRIST by President Joseph Fielding Smith:

Sinaitic Manuscript

Where we get the term Holy Spirit as a name of the third person of the God Head is from the Sinaitic Manuscripts found in the trash at Mount Sinai, Courtesy of that Great Church.

For instance in Mat. 1 where He is erroneously called the Holy Spirit.

This is the beginning of the corruption we find in most Bibles today.

These Older Better Manuscripts are passed off as being more accurate because of their age and in the process confuses mankind as to the accuracy of Scripture in general.

I have written quite a bit on this subject throughout these forums and if you need more information I suggest you seek out these.

Mat 1:18 But the birth of Jesus Christ was thus: After his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

Mat 1:19 And Joseph her husband, being just and not willing to make her an example, intended to put her away privately.

Mat 1:20 But while he thought of these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take to thee Mary thy wife; for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bear a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus; for he shall save his people from their sins.

Bro. Rudick

[mikbone]

Not to get off on a tangent here.. but this is a fun topic.

1) Adam is a previously exalted Being and the father of all humans on earth.

2) Adam is Michael

3) Michael is "The Ancient of Days" and the Patriarch of our race

4) Michael holds the keys to the priesthood and will give them to Jesus at Adam-ondi-Ahman.

5) Who then is the Father of all living, the leader of the hosts of heaven, and the one capable of giving Jesus authority (keys) in all things? God the Father.

It's interesting.. at the least.

You don't quote any material from which your conclusions are derived. But I assume that you are refering to Brigham Young's Adam-God Theory as found in Journal of Discourse 1:50

I have recently come to grasps with the Adam-God Theory and now understand it much better. And this is primarily due to the scripture 1 Corinthians 15:44-47

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

This scripture implies that Christ is the Last Adam. I believe that when Brigham Young was commenting about Adam in the Adam-God Theory, that he was not talking about a single individual. It is up to us to distinguish which individual that Brigham Young was commenting upon.

1) Adam is a previously exalted Being and the father of all humans on earth. - Elohim was previously an exalted being and is the Father of the Spirits of all humans on Earth. I suspect that Jehovah was previously an exalted being and that he is the father of the mortal tabernacles of all humans on Earth (Ether 3:14-17). I do not believe that Adam (the mortal father of Cain & Abel) was a previously exalted being prior to his birth on this Earth.

2) Adam is Michael - These names may be a title and may apply to all 3 personages.

3) Michael is "The Ancient of Days" and the Patriarch of our race - All 3 personages are Patriarchs

4) Michael holds the keys to the priesthood and will give them to Jesus at Adam-ondi-Ahman. Yes, as described by Joseph Smith - Instructions delivered sometime in July 1839, Source: Willard Richards Pocket Companion (probably copied in part from notes of John Taylor)

Eschatological Meeting at Adam-Ondi-Ahman

Dan VII Speaks of the Ancient of days, he means the oldest man, our Father Adam, Michael; he will call his children together, & hold a council with them to prepare them for the coming of the Son of Man. He, (Adam) is the Father of the human family & presides over the Spirits of all men, & all that have had the Keys must stand before him in this great Council. This may take place before some of us leave this stage of action. The Son of Man stands before him & there is given him glory & dominion.--Adam delivers up his Stewardship to Christ, that which was deliverd to him as holding the Keys of the Universe, but retains his standing as head of the human family.

5) Who then is the Father of all living, the leader of the hosts of heaven, and the one capable of giving Jesus authority (keys) in all things? God the Father. - This statement is a bit overreaching in my opinion. You have strung together 3 concepts and then apply all of those concepts to Elohim. I would break them down.

The Father of all living is: 1) Elohim - as the spiritual father, 2) Jehovah - as the creator of the physical tabernacles of man, 3) Adam is the father of all of the human race.

The leader of the Hosts of Heaven. This can also apply to all 3 members. Elohim is the ultimate God. Jesus Christ will direct the Hosts of Heaven with Michael the Archangle as his main General in the final battle.

The one capable of giving Jesus authority (keys) in all things? - Elohim obviously gave Jehovah the priesthood and all his power and keys. Although as quoted above, Michael will deliver his stewardship and priesthood keys back to Christ at the begenning of the Millenium.

Edited May 27, 2009 by mikbone

[TheAngelPalmoni]

"This is our explanation in regard to the Spirit of Christ, or Light of Truth, which every man receives and is guided by. Unless a man had the blessings that come from this Spirit, his mind would not be quickened; there would be no vegetation grow; the worlds would not stay in their orbits; because it is through this Spirit of Truth, this Light of Truth, according to this revelation, that all these things are done."

If the Light of Christ and Spirit of Christ is also Called the "Light of Truth" then isn't D&C 93:29 a little more interesting,

Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Looks like Light of Chirst is an Intelligence as well as the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Ghost are intelligences.

Cool

Eternal Progression, what a wonderful phrase, oh how crazy it would be to finally fully understand this. I've study an innumerable amount of hours on the subject, and I've come up with this I've posted it before, I just like saying it, you might have already read some of it.

It is first reasonable to say that this plan is a perfect plan in and that it cannot be improved upon, any alteration would make the plan imperfect. So it is the same eternal plan one after the other which purpose is to eternally progress from darkness into light. From lesser Intelligence into Greater Intelligence. From One Plan of Salvation to the next, Yes I'm saying that you have all been in previous plans of salvation, the egyptians say about 8 now. We are in the 8 recordable plan of salvation as a recognizable Intelligence. Second, before we were spiritually begotten by our Heavenly Father and Mother we were pure intelligence. D&C 93:23 29-30 in the beginning we were the spirit of truth, A profound statement, from this I push it as far as to say that in the beginning, we, you and I, were the Spirit of truth, or the Holy Ghost. We Aided the Holy Ghost in His calling!

Third, I'm sorry if this is pushing the envelope, Christ is doing only that which he saw the Father do before, lay down his life and take it up again. Christ had the power to do exactly that. God might have in a previous Plan of Salvation created an atonement, and Christ is doing only that which he saw his father do. Now how could Christ see God do something if he wasn't in the plan? Christ somehow must have been in the plan to see this witness it. If D&C 93 has any hold in this presumption, I go as far to say that Christ was the Holy Ghost of the last plan of Salvation. Furthermore the Holy Ghost as an intelligence cannot exist inside another intelligence. An intelligence can exist inside a Spirit body. and a Spirit Body can exist inside a Physical Body. The Holy Ghost as an intelligence is able to dwell inside us and speak intelligence to intelligence. When you die and pass through the thin vail, you will see loved ones, when you go to give them a hug you will not whoosh through them but will feel them. D&C 76:13 "Even those things which were from the beginning before the world was, which were ordained of the Father, through his Only Begotten Son, who [{(was)}] in the bosom of the Father, even from the beginning." The Holy Ghost dwells in the bosom of the Father.

Within this progression scale there are a few more levels:

God the Father - Council of God

Christ - Mortals - Morning stars

Holy Ghost - Intelligence

The Spirit of Christ - Lower intelligences

The Light of Christ - Lower Intelligences

Breath of Life - Kolob - Darkness (there are four levels just in this one)

All men are given the Light of Christ which is known as the free gift or the conscience of man. This is an intelligence or personal being through which god communicates his Will. So this intelligence is in fact the Will of God which tells our own Intelligence what god requires of us. This light of Christ Intelligence is like our own intelligence.

In Eph 2:1-5 God hath quickened the saint who were once dead in trespasses and sins. Even though they were, before baptism, dead in sins god hath quickened them together with Christ. This endowment of the Spirit of Christ occurs at the time of confirmation.

From darkness to light, to say that an intelligence is darkness is not to say that it is 100% dark, only that it has more darkness than light. The jump from Darkness to the Light of Christ is found in many scriptures but here are a couple. II Cor 4:6, and D&C 88:12-13. When we move up within levels of progression the other levels move up as well. Darkness to the Light of Christ, the Light of Christ to the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of Christ to the Holy Ghost,

Since Kolob is the first in government and last in time, it stands to reason that God the Father must me the First in Time and last in Government. This agrees with God's own Power, the Holy Ghost who is called the Head of Days in the Book of Enoch. (Enoch 46:1-2, and 48:2) Kolob seems to be the center of this creation. The light comes from the darkness, in the center of our galaxy is a Black hole... We progress from darkness to light! From one plan of Salvation to the next. So in the last plan of salvation we were all intelligences aiding the Holy Ghost in his calling. Before that we were the Spirit of Christ which is the Gift of the Holy Ghost at baptism. A personal Intelligence sealed within us. Before that we were The Light of Christ.

And before that we progressed through the four levels of Darkness... and before that we were varying degress of darkness to light always existing.

In Facsimile No2 Fig 7 this represents God sitting upon his throne, revealing through the heavens the grand keywords of the priesthood as also The Sign of the Holy Ghost unto abraham, in the form of a dove. The dove is the Holy Ghost offering his power to the Father at the beginning of the plan. The Dove is (was) Christ.

[JohnnyRudick]

"This is our explanation in regard to the Spirit of Christ, or Light of Truth, which every man receives and is guided by. . . .

Most of it - Way tooooooo Coool;)

I had to copy it down for later study.

Not to sure about the Dove thing but most of it was great stuff.

thanks:p

Bro. Rudick

[TheAngelPalmoni]

Palmoni Scrolls

The drawing of the whole thing is here

[Hemidakota]

Thanks...I will be printing these drawings on the plotter this round...makes it easier to studying over.

[JohnnyRudick]

Palmoni Scrolls

The drawing of the whole thing is here

I am trying to download these cool scrolls and can't figure out how to do it:bawl:

I see all kinds of eye candy here and can't get at it.

I have dial up.

Could that have anything to do with it?

I see the thumbnails.

I click on one and it says that there is something transferring but I wait and nothing happens.

I right click on one and it offers to download with download express and I say ok but then it says file can't download.

Soooooooooooooooooooooo,

HELP!!!

Thanks;)

Bro. Rudick

[a-train]

I feel there is far more evidence in the Bible to support the three in one philosophy than three distinct and separate beings. There is far too much evidence to the deity of Jesus to be overlooked.

John 14:9... just one of many examples.... "anyone who has seen me has seen the Father"....

Jesus goes on to say that "He" Himself answers prayer....

Too much evidence to be overlooked.

I'm sorry, but I am still not sure if you are talking about Modalism or not. It sounds as if you are, but I want to be sure. You see the Bible teaching Modalism? Not Trinitarianism?

The vast majority of Christians today believe in Trinitarianism which holds that the Godhead is One God in Three distinct and coeternal Persons: The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Modalism is believed by a section of Christians who disagree with Trinitarianism. Modalism holds that a Single Holy Being manifests Himself in three different modes: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Mormons are Trinitarians.

Many, even many Mormons, would disagree that Mormons are Trinitarians. But tell me the difference between Mormon Theology and Trinitarianism. Mormons believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are distinct coeternal Persons. So do the Trinitarians. Mormons believe these Holy Three are One Eternal God. So to the Trinitarians.

The debate between most Trinitarians and Mormons is not on the subject of the theology of the Godhead and its' unity, but on the corporeal nature of the Father and the respective Histories of the Holy Three.

Imagine a debate between two Trinitarians over the financial situation of the family of Joseph and Mary. One says they were wealthy, the other says they were poor. Thus these two believers would differ on the history of Jesus. One says He grew up a rich boy, the other says He grew up poor. The discussion would have no effect on the Trinitarianism of either party.

Just the same, Mormons differ from most Trinitarians on the subject of the pre-mortal history of Jesus. This does not change Mormons from Trinitarians to something else. Some Trinitarians would argue that the LDS belief that the Father has a distinct and seperate tangible body of flesh and bone from the Son is a departure from Trinitarianism. Buy I ask "how"?

If it is necessary to say that the Son has such a body and the Father does not in order to establish the distinct nature of the Persons of the Godhead, then what establishes this distinction between the Father and the Holy Spirit? Indeed, two men are certainly distinct and have two seperate corporeal bodies. In fact, it is the coexistance and respective history and location of their respective bodies upon which we first establish their distinction.

Trinitarians (most Christians) believe in the seperate histories of the Holy Three. They quickly admit that the Son alone was born of Mary and endured His mortality in Palestine. Inasmuch as the Father endured this history, He did so through the Person of the Son.

I would be happy to see a demonstration of the real difference between Trinitarianism and Mormon theology. In fact, I have long searched for this difference and have yet to find it.

-a-train

[TheAngelPalmoni]

I am trying to download these cool scrolls and can't figure out how to do it:bawl:

I see all kinds of eye candy here and can't get at it.

I have dial up.

Could that have anything to do with it?

I see the thumbnails.

I click on one and it says that there is something transferring but I wait and nothing happens.

I right click on one and it offers to download with download express and I say ok but then it says file can't download.

Soooooooooooooooooooooo,

HELP!!!

Thanks;)

Bro. Rudick

Hmmm...

Try www.angelpalmoni.com

And then right click on Save Taget As...

Let me know...

[bmy-]

You don't quote any material from which your conclusions are derived. But I assume that you are refering to Brigham Young's Adam-God Theory as found in Journal of Discourse 1:50

I have recently come to grasps with the Adam-God Theory and now understand it much better. And this is primarily due to the scripture 1 Corinthians 15:44-47

The conclusion is derived in part from BYs remarks and teachings. The other part is just a logical conclusion reached by the following points. I'm still not certain that Elohim is the correct term for 'God the Father' which is the primary reason I briefly summed up the Michael-God theory.

As Joseph Smith said in the King Follet Discourse..(yes there are multiple interpretations.. not all are equal, either)

"In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it."

Elohim could literally mean 'The council of the Gods' and his/their involvement in the creation of the world would be giving authority to Michael, Christ.. to create the world.

Elohim then (as far as we are concerned) would be fairly impersonal to us. Michael and Christ would be under their direction.. as we are below them. Michael would be God the Father, Jehova would be the Christ, and the Holy Spirit (or the Force ) would still be the same. As far as i'm aware this 'theory' (speculation) is easily fit into our creation story.

It's not doctrine.. i'm not even sure it's valid speculation. But at the very least it would make a kick-butt Holy Book.

EDIT: Your remarks about the 3 seperate fathers.. (physical, spiritual, and our 'souls') is interesting. The telestial, terrestrial, and celestial creations.. everything works in 3s in this Church. Interesting.. and I hadn't considered it from that POV yet.

Edited May 28, 2009 by bmy-

[mikbone]

I'm still not certain that Elohim is the correct term for 'God the Father' which is the primary reason I briefly summed up the Michael-God theory.

True Elohim is plural for GOD. I have assumed that Elohim stands for God the Father and his Wife/Wives. But this is speculation. The personage that revealed himself to Joseph Smith "One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!" JSH 1:17 Most definately represents Elohim though. HE is who I imagine when pray. In my mind I don't pray to a group of people.

Elohim then (as far as we are concerned) would be fairly impersonal to us. Michael and Christ would be under their direction.. as we are below them. Michael would be God the Father, Jehova would be the Christ, and the Holy Spirit (or the Force ) would still be the same. As far as i'm aware this 'theory' (speculation) is easily fit into our creation story.

I don't see Elohim as impersonal at all. He is aware of us and we pray to him. Unfortunately because of sin we are not allowed to have any significant interaction with him though. I am quite positive that once we pass through the Veil that we will be reunited with Him again.

I can't visualize Adam/Michael (Eve's husband, and the father of Cain and Abel) as God the Father. He is far behind Elohim and Jehovah in the path of progression. Yet obviously ahead of you and I. Here is an interesting quote from Waiting for World's End The Diaries of Wilford Woodruff, May 6, 1855, p. 167 "Orson Pratt asks [brigham Young] will Adam or any God continue to make worlds people them taste of Death to redeem them? Answer. I have no doubt but it is his privilege but whether He will do it is a question in my mind." I feel strongly that Adam will excell in his trial in the Office of Messiah. If any of us has a chance of doing well and following in the pathway of exaltation of our Fathers. He is the best equiped in my opinion.

Edited May 28, 2009 by mikbone

[Hemidakota]

can't visualize Adam/Michael (Eve's husband, and the father of Cain and Abel) as God the Father. He is far behind Elohim and Jehovah in the path of progression. Yet obviously ahead of you and I. Here is an interesting quote from Waiting for World's End The Diaries of Wilford Woodruff, May 6, 1855, p. 167 "Orson Pratt asks [brigham Young] will Adam or any God continue to make worlds people them taste of Death to redeem them? Answer. I have no doubt but it is his privilege but whether He will do it is a question in my mind." I feel strongly that Adam will excell in his trial in the Office of Messiah. If any of us has a chance of doing well and following in the pathway of exaltation of our Fathers. He is the best equiped in my opinion.

I have to disagree since both Adam and Eve sit upon their throne of glory. Having the character behavior of the FATHER, then yes! Christ dominates this capacity that most of of us do fail.

[mikbone]

I have to disagree since both Adam and Eve sit upon their throne of glory. Having the character behavior of the FATHER, then yes! Christ dominates this capacity that most of of us do fail.

Spencer W. Kimball, “Our Own Liahona,” Ensign, Nov. 1976, 77

"Another matter. We hope that you who teach in the various organizations, whether on the campuses or in our chapels, will always teach the orthodox truth. We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine."

From the above statement, I take it that the Adam-God theory is generally poorly understood and thus should not be openly taught. I continue to disagree that Adam (the father of Cain & Abel) is the FATHER.

Elder Mark E. Petersen, Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, November 1980 Ensign

Is also a great article that I highly recommend. It seems to have been addressed to members who misunderstand the role of Adam.

D&C 137:3-5

Also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son.

I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold.

I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

D&C 132:29

Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.

In 137 we see that Elohim and Jehovah are seated in their blazing thrones. But notice how Adam is grouped with Abraham. Indeed from 132 we know that Abraham has entered into his exlatation and no doubt Adam has also, and they are seated in their thrones. But are their thrones equal to the thrones of Elohim and Jehovah's? I think not.

Rev. 3: 21

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

I submit that there are many thrones.

Do we obtain a throne as a King and Priest? Probably.

Is the throne that Elohim obtained the one that Adam now occupies? Not in my opinion.

Edited May 28, 2009 by mikbone

[bmy-]

Spencer W. Kimball, “Our Own Liahona,” Ensign, Nov. 1976, 77

"Another matter. We hope that you who teach in the various organizations, whether on the campuses or in our chapels, will always teach the orthodox truth. We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine."

From the above statement, I take it that the Adam-God theory is generally poorly understood and thus should not be openly taught. I continue to disagree that Adam (the father of Cain & Abel) is the FATHER.

Have you considered.. why it was taught that way by the early Church? If Brigham Young taught it so vehemently.. there has to be something to it. I think you touched on one of the better reasons it's denounced.. it's been tainted. The Adam-God theory people find on hatchet sites are nothing like the version Brigham taught. Brighams version was quite elegant, imo.

Brigham was quite firm in his remarks that this is extremely pertinent to our salvation.. and i'm glad we're discussing this. It's not discussed in Church... ever.. in my experience. The missionaries know less on this topic than they should.

Who 'God the Father' is.. is central to this plan. How can such a thing be swept under the rug like it is?

[the Ogre]

. . . Who 'God the Father' is.. is central to this plan . . .

No, who G-d is has nothing to do with the Great Plan of Happiness. We know that H- is, but after that we do not need anything else. Anything else is a red-herring, a distraction from what is important.

Next, I am glad you believe Brigham is a prophet, but so is Thomas S. His testimony counts for more today then does Brigham's. The prophets between Brigham and Thomas have eroded all Michael/G-d theories to the trivial and moot (nice thing that revelation).

Time to leave the board games behind and get to work. Don't worry about G-d, H- can take care of H-mself.

[JohnnyRudick]

Hmmm...

Try www.angelpalmoni.com

And then right click on Save Taget As...

Let me know...

Went there

Same problem.

I see the thumbnails but there is no way I can download the file or enlarge to a larger size and save picture.

I guess this is great study guides I will have to miss out on:bawl:

It is something most likely so simple (if it were a snake. . . ) but I just don't see it:(

Bro. Rudick

[a-train]

Have you considered.. why it was taught that way by the early Church? If Brigham Young taught it so vehemently.. there has to be something to it. I think you touched on one of the better reasons it's denounced.. it's been tainted. The Adam-God theory people find on hatchet sites are nothing like the version Brigham taught. Brighams version was quite elegant, imo.

Brigham was quite firm in his remarks that this is extremely pertinent to our salvation.. and i'm glad we're discussing this. It's not discussed in Church... ever.. in my experience. The missionaries know less on this topic than they should.

Who 'God the Father' is.. is central to this plan. How can such a thing be swept under the rug like it is?

What Brigham Young taught was simply that Adam (Michael) is Diety. He did NOT teach that He is Elohim. He simply made clear the status which Michael attained in the Grand Council and his role as the first man and the Ancient of Days. He did NOT believe Michael was Elohim.

That is the distinction and the trouble. Morons (yes morons) have now for generations disregarded the very language of Brigham Young's talks to make stupid assertions that he believed Adam and Elohim to be one and the same while the very talks they quote teach the exact opposite: that they are distinct.

The term "Adam-God Theory" is the notion that Adam is Elohim. It does NOT describe anything ever taught by Brigham Young whatsoever. What WAS taught by Brigham Young IS still taught in the Church. He taught that Michael (Adam) was present in the Grand Council and was there selected to be a major participant in the Creation and the first man and father of the human race on this earth. This position is one of high preisthood authority, singular in its arrangement and effect among all men on this earth. Standing in this position, Adam will sit in judgment of the human race at the Great Judgment Bar. He will be redeemed to his status as the living father of this earth and of all resurrected mankind when the earth is celestialized. These things are what Brigham Young taught, not that Adam is Elohim.

-a-train

Edited May 28, 2009 by a-train

[Hemidakota]

Spencer W. Kimball, “Our Own Liahona,” Ensign, Nov. 1976, 77

"Another matter. We hope that you who teach in the various organizations, whether on the campuses or in our chapels, will always teach the orthodox truth. We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine."

From the above statement, I take it that the Adam-God theory is generally poorly understood and thus should not be openly taught. I continue to disagree that Adam (the father of Cain & Abel) is the FATHER.

Elder Mark E. Petersen, Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, November 1980 Ensign

Is also a great article that I highly recommend. It seems to have been addressed to members who misunderstand the role of Adam.

D&C 137:3-5

Also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son.

I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold.

I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

D&C 132:29

Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.

In 137 we see that Elohim and Jehovah are seated in their blazing thrones. But notice how Adam is grouped with Abraham. Indeed from 132 we know that Abraham has entered into his exlatation and no doubt Adam has also, and they are seated in their thrones. But are their thrones equal to the thrones of Elohim and Jehovah's? I think not.

Rev. 3: 21

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

I submit that there are many thrones.

Do we obtain a throne as a King and Priest? Probably.

Is the throne that Elohim obtained the one that Adam now occupies? Not in my opinion.

You can list the scriptures and I understand your point but Joseph Smith seen them both in that glory state as KING and QUEEN.

[Justice]

I agree a-train. But, I try to avoid it.

[bmy-]

What Brigham Young taught was simply that Adam (Michael) is Diety. He did NOT teach that He is Elohim. He simply made clear the status which Michael attained in the Grand Council and his role as the first man and the Ancient of Days. He did NOT believe Michael was Elohim.

I might have worded it poorly.. but I was suggesting that (perhaps) Elohim is not God the Father. He very well could be a 'God the Father' but I was speaking on if he is our 'God the Father'.

I was suggesting (or attempting to) that Michael is a God. Specifically God the Father -- as he is the spiritual father of us all, the earthly father of us all, and the biological father of Jesus Christ. I'm not saying I believe it.. i'm simply discussing a theory which has some validity.

"Father Adam's oldest son, Jesus the Savior, who is the heir of the family, is Father Adam's first begotten in the spirit world and the only begotten according to the flesh (as it is written), Adam in his divinity having gone back into the spirit world and come in the spirit to Mary, and she conceived."

John Nuttall, Brighams personal secretary.

(Before we say he wasn't a prophet.. he also recorded other topics for Brigham.. like temple instructions. He was obviously trusted.)

At the very least.. it's an elegant theory. In this theory I view Elohim as the one giving the calling and being their adviser. Michael as being the one given the calling (to bring to pass the salvation of his children and to further the progression of Christ).

I hope that makes more sense.