Does LDS doctrine clash with the Bible?

[FunkyTown]

I wish this had have been all the members saying 'No', so the conversation would have gone like this:

JohnnyRudick:

Does LDS doctrine clash with the bible?

Wingnut says:

No.

FunkyTown says:

No.

MarginOfError says:

No.

Pam says:

No

JohnnyRudick says:

Good discussion!

[JohnnyRudick]

I wish this had have been all the members saying 'No', so the conversation would have gone like this:

JohnnyRudick:

Does LDS doctrine clash with the bible?

. . .

JohnnyRudick says:

Good discussion!

Times like this we really get into the meat of the subject.

We bring out what the Bible really says and I like that because I know that when we allow the Bible to speak it says, "yes, I have prepared the way for the Gospel of the Restoration and my testimony is true and reliable as long as you separate Me from what I say and the doctrines of men.:)

Bro. Rudick

[MikeUpton]

I wish this had have been all the members saying 'No', so the conversation would have gone like this:

JohnnyRudick:

Does LDS doctrine clash with the bible?

Wingnut says:

No.

FunkyTown says:

No.

MarginOfError says:

No.

Pam says:

No

JohnnyRudick says:

Good discussion!

MikeUpton says:

Which version of the Bible? Not the KJV, and I don't know about the NIV, but definitely the Jive Bible.

[JohnnyRudick]

MikeUpton says:

Which version of the Bible? Not the KJV, and I don't know about the NIV, but definitely the Jive Bible.

The Gospel of the Restoration does not clash with the King James Bible.

It does clash with other versions of this Bible though^_^

Bro. Rudick

[rameumptom]

I claim not to be disrespectful to any one individual and I try not to be disrespectful to any's beliefs. ...I believe it is important to know who Jesus is. To know Him is to have eternal life. I believe, for instance, that He is not my elder brother who is cut from the same pre-existing spiritual cloth as I. There is no Biblical support for these views of JWs, muslims and many other groups. Is there? If there were, that would be a different story for me as it is for you. If Jesus is your spiritual brother and Jesus is not mine, what is it that you find irritating or disrespectful about what I share sincerely from my understanding of the Bible?

First, you've failed on this list, if you feel you haven't been disrespectful.

Second, your claim there is "no Biblical support" is wrong. Plain wrong. We've shown you stuff already, which I'm certain you haven't bothered to read, as that would mean you would have to be open minded enough to consider that someone else might have more Biblical knowledge than you have.

The early Jews and Christians viewed God as anthropomorphic. El Elyon/Elohim was the chief God, with divine sons/children. In Job we can read about the morning stars and Sons of God (El) shouting for joy at the creation of the earth. In Isaiah 6, we see a recreation of a Divine Council meeting, where Isaiah is cleansed by Yahweh as Seraphim (an angel), in his role as Messiah and Savior. The chiefest of his sons was Jehovah/Yahweh. Scholars have shown that early Christians believed Jesus was the Jehovah of the Old Testament.

Paul taught

"16 The Spirit itself beareth awitness with our bspirit, that we are the cchildren of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; aheirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we bsuffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." (Romans 8).

And also:

"5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the aform of God, thought it not robbery to be bequal with God:" (Phillippians 2)

Wow! I guess we ARE like Jesus. If we and Jesus are sons of God, I guess that makes us siblings with him. Or are you needing to twist the scriptures to say something else?

[prisonchaplain]

Why we disagree about water baptism (one issue in our Bible clash string): We continually conflate conversion with enduring to the end, salvation from hell with exaltation to God's highest reward.

IF there are three kingdoms, it makes perfect sense to me to suggest that the highest one would be reserved for those most fully committed to God and his ways. Water baptism, being an initial act of obedience, would seem to be a very modest milestone indeed.

But, if there really is only heaven and hell, those of us who say that failure to be water baptized, while a vitally important early step in Christian obedience, would not, of itself, damn when to the Lake of Fire, would seem to be on the side of God's mercy.

Edited June 12, 2009 by prisonchaplain

[Dale]

I study Anti-Mormon material as a hobby. I feel the contradictions between the Bible and Latter Day Saint tradition beliefs can be resolved. Though i am not LDS but a member of the Community of Christ (formerly the longer named Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints).

With the Jesus and Lucifer are brothers issue it can be partially resolved by looking at Colossians 1:15. Evangelicals to try and escape the idea a pre-incarnate angelic form was created for Christ's uncreated intelligence has via word studies tried to say the word firstborn only means Christ was pre-eminent. Via a better word study i have seen firstborn does mean Christ had an angelic form created that was figuratively born first prior to Lucifer. That means Jesus and Lucifer are brothers in the created sense to each other.

Nothing in Colossians 1:16 precludes Jesus as God from having a form created or from creating Lucifer and other spirit children of God. Now i am one who doubts Joseph Smith taught we were literal spirit children of God. He did in a sermon speculate about uncreated spirit children. D.&C. 132:19 reference to the "continuation of the seeds" may be interpreted as couples married for eternity having physical children in the resurrection. But LDS after his death interpreted it as having spirit children in the resurection and the idea resulted that Jesus and Lucifer were literal spirit brothers.

With the idea LDS have a different Jesus it is a reference to 2 Corinthians 11:4. On the surface LDS do share with traditional Christians common terminology with regards to the Biblical Jesus. But it is the theological differences with regards to unique LDS ideas with regards to Christ others see your Jesus as wrong. Members of my church get our ideas of Jesus thought false also based on different objections.

[aj4u]

We have shown you that the Bible teaches that Man is also spirit.

As was asked earlier, What did Jesus do with His body that He took into Heaven with and the Angel tells us He will return with?

Do you not see that He must still have His body?

You show us a verse or two and then you tell us an established church doctrine on that verse and not what the verse actually says.

God the Holy Ghost is Spirit.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you

another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot

receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye

know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

God the Father is Flesh and Bone.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with

you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me

hath seen the Father; . . .

God the Son, is Flesh and Bone.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself:

handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye

see me have.

Bro. Rudick

Obviously, Jesus wasn't referring to God His father in heaven as being flesh and bone because the Bible says that God is Spirit. Now, in a sense that Jesus was and is God you can make an arugument that God the Son is flesh and blood. I will not come against that. Moreover, the fact that man has a spirit doesn't make him one. I can have a hamburger, but that doesn't make me one. I believe one day we will be llke the angels when we get out of our hamburgers:popcorn: Notice I said be like the angels; not be angels.

[aj4u]

I study Anti-Mormon material as a hobby. I feel the contradictions between the Bible and Latter Day Saint tradition beliefs can be resolved. Though i am not LDS but a member of the Community of Christ (formerly the longer named Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints).

With the Jesus and Lucifer are brothers issue it can be partially resolved by looking at Colossians 1:15. Evangelicals to try and escape the idea a pre-incarnate angelic form was created for Christ's uncreated intelligence has via word studies tried to say the word firstborn only means Christ was pre-eminent. Via a better word study i have seen firstborn does mean Christ had an angelic form created that was figuratively born first prior to Lucifer. That means Jesus and Lucifer are brothers in the created sense to each other.

Nothing in Colossians 1:16 precludes Jesus as God from having a form created or from creating Lucifer and other spirit children of God. Now i am one who doubts Joseph Smith taught we were literal spirit children of God. He did in a sermon speculate about uncreated spirit children. D.&C. 132:19 reference to the "continuation of the seeds" may be interpreted as couples married for eternity having physical children in the resurrection. But LDS after his death interpreted it as having spirit children in the resurection and the idea resulted that Jesus and Lucifer were literal spirit brothers.

With the idea LDS have a different Jesus it is a reference to 2 Corinthians 11:4. On the surface LDS do share with traditional Christians common terminology with regards to the Biblical Jesus. But it is the theological differences with regards to unique LDS ideas with regards to Christ others see your Jesus as wrong. Members of my church get our ideas of Jesus thought false also based on different objections.

Jesus is the bursting forth of ALL God's glory. Heb. 1 That is what proves He is distinct in person as the Son. Now, He is also the exact representation, stamp of all that God is in nature, essence and being. Before He was the Son; He was always the WORD of God. Jesus Christ in essence always was God. "The Word was God" I believe traditional Christians would see your reasoning flawed as well as Mormons. Keep studying and learning, but do come to the knowledge of truth.

[aj4u]

Why we disagree about water baptism (one issue in our Bible class string): We continually conflate conversion with enduring to the end, salvation from hell with exaltation to God's highest reward.

IF there are three kingdoms, it makes perfect sense to me to suggest that the highest one would be reserved for those most fully committed to God and his ways. Water baptism, being an initial act of obedience, would seem to be a very modest milestone indeed.

But, if there really is only heaven and hell, those of us who say that failure to be water baptized, while a vitally important early step in Christian obedience, would not, of itself, damn when to the Lake of Fire, would seem to be on the side of God's mercy.

Could you explain that another way? I don't follow:confused:

[Justice]

Obviously.

Since God is Spirit the ONLY interpretation is that God does not have a body of flesh and bones. It's amazing that you do not at least acknowledge that God could be a dual being as I suggested, both spirit and physical.

If Christ is perfect, and He has a body of flesh and bones, would it at least be worth considering that if the Father is perfect that He, too, would have a body of flesh and bones?

What about the scripture I asked about in Genesis 3? I haven't seen a reply to that one yet.

[Justice]

PC, it's not lack of baptism or a lack of belief in Christ that damns one. Sin is the method of damnation.

All fall short of the glory of God... because of sin.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ was not invented by Christ. It is the Father's message of hope to all mankind. His Son Jesus Christ acts wholly in support of the Father's plan, and thus took upon Himself the will of the Father.

It is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, or the good news of Jesus Christ, given to us by the Father, that saves. Without it things are as they are. Mankind is lost and fallen. It doesn't take a lack of belief to bring damnation... just sin.

What the scripture means that says if you don't believe in Christ you are damned is that Christ is the only way to eternal life. And, even being saved from outer darkness was Christ's doing.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is for those who wish to obtain eternal life.

[Carl62]

I said they are of the same substance yet distinct. This is not an opinion of mine; this is the Scripture.

So how is that any different than what we as LDS believe? We believe that God and Jesus Christ are of the same substance (flesh and bones), yet distinct (two separate personages) and the Holy Ghost is thus a spirit. So where's the problem there? And also, it clearly states that Stephen saw Christ standing at the RIGHT HAND of God. So why are we so off the mark by thinking that God can have a body?

Edited June 12, 2009 by Carl62

[prisonchaplain]

Could you explain that another way? I don't follow:confused:

AJ, LDS believe there are three kingdoms of heaven, and that only those who are the most faithful will attain the highest kingdom, and along with it exaltation to a godlike existence. They also believe that there will be opportunities for baptism given after death. Therefore, those who are not baptized, in this theology, have truly rejected the sacrament. Further, LDS believe that everyone will have a intelligent presentation of the gospel--there will be no accidental non-baptisms or rejections of God.

You and I do not believe these things. We believe after death there is heaven and hell, and that's it. Opprotunities for salvation are only available in this lifetime--it is appointed unto men once to die and then the judgement. And, while we may believe in varying rewards, we only believe in one heavenly kingdom. Finally, for us salvation begins at conversion. Most of us evangelicals assume we'll endure to the end, and do not hesitate to say, "I'm saved!"

So, we may err in suggesting that LDS require baptism as a prerequisite of "conversion." Rather, they say that an obvious part of enduring to the end is to obey the Lord in baptism. We would further err in saying LDS believe in "works salvation," since their real focus is on living the Christian life well. We'd all agree that God will not bless the so-called Christian who lives a life with sparse good works, and little public testimony of God.

We still disagree aplenty with LDS teaching, but our conversations often get needlessly side-tracked by the easy confusing between conversion and ultimate salvation, and between our understanding of a stark heaven and hell vs. the LDS belief in three heavens, with a very tiny hell (outer darkness).

[aj4u]

First, you've failed on this list, if you feel you haven't been disrespectful.

Second, your claim there is "no Biblical support" is wrong. Plain wrong. We've shown you stuff already, which I'm certain you haven't bothered to read, as that would mean you would have to be open minded enough to consider that someone else might have more Biblical knowledge than you have.

The early Jews and Christians viewed God as anthropomorphic. El Elyon/Elohim was the chief God, with divine sons/children. In Job we can read about the morning stars and Sons of God (El) shouting for joy at the creation of the earth. In Isaiah 6, we see a recreation of a Divine Council meeting, where Isaiah is cleansed by Yahweh as Seraphim (an angel), in his role as Messiah and Savior. The chiefest of his sons was Jehovah/Yahweh. Scholars have shown that early Christians believed Jesus was the Jehovah of the Old Testament.

Paul taught

And also:

Wow! I guess we ARE like Jesus. If we and Jesus are sons of God, I guess that makes us siblings with him. Or are you needing to twist the scriptures to say something else?

Quote the rest of that verses to understand it in context. Phil. 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

If we exalt ourselves, God will humble us. Pride comes before a fall! We are supposed to have the mind of Christ.

I have no problem believing that Jesus is Jehovah, but keep in mind Jesus didn't exist as flesh and bone during that time nor was He called Jesus. I have no problem with someone showing me they have more knowledge than me, but what good is knowledge if it never leads you to the truth. You have failed to show me how I have been disrespectful:D

Edited June 12, 2009 by aj4u

[Carl62]

Jesus is the bursting forth of ALL God's glory. Heb. 1 That is what proves He is distinct in person as the Son. Now, He is also the exact representation, stamp of all that God is in nature, essence and being.

So why couldn't this mean that God has a body since you say that Jesus was the EXACT representation of Him?

[aj4u]

God gives those who receive Him power to become the sons of God. For one to say they are a son of God and Jesus is there brother seems presumptious to say the least from where I am standing. First Christ must be received to be given power to become a son of God (Children of God), but in order to receive Him you must know who He is.

[aj4u]

So why couldn't this mean that God has a body since you say that Jesus was the EXACT representation of Him?

Because it is written that "God is a Spirit." These things are tough to explain. They're spiritually discerned. It is like trying explain what a strawberry taste like to someone who has never seen or tasted one. Jesus was not like God in the sense of flesh and blood because God is Spirit; therefore, we can assertain that He is the exact representation of God in that He is deity (co-eternal) with the Father. This is a mystery. There is only one God.

[pam]

God has a body of flesh and bones and that is why we are created in His image. God is NOT a Spirit.

[john doe]

We need a smiley of a dog chasing its tail.

[Carl62]

Because it is written that "God is a Spirit." These things are tough to explain. They're spiritually discerned. It is like trying explain what a strawberry taste like to someone who has never seen or tasted one. Jesus was not like God in the sense of flesh and blood because God is Spirit; therefore, we can assertain that He is the exact representation of God in that He is deity (co-eternal) with the Father. This is a mystery. There is only one God.

I can't understand why you are stuck like a skipping record on that one verse "God is a Spirit" and ignore all the rest that describe God. AJ, you should also read that whole, entire verse to get the full meaning of what Jesus was saying. It says, "God is a Spirit, and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth". (John 4:24) AJ, do you leave your body at home when you go to church to worship God? After all, it says that YOU MUST WORSHIP HIM IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH. Heb.12:29 also says that "God is a consuming fire". Do you believe that He is just fire? Of course not! 1 John also describes God as being both "light" and "love". So God can do and be many things, so to say that He is only a spirit is ridiculous!

[Carl62]

God has a body of flesh and bones and that is why we are created in His image.

You've got it Pam!:) That's why it CLEARLY states in Hebrews 1:3 that Christ was in the "EXPESS IMAGE" of his Father, as so are we. I don't know how much clearer it can be made.

[pam]

Totally agree with you Carl.

[pam]

This is really how I feel about this thread.

[aj4u]

God has a body of flesh and bones and that is why we are created in His image. God is NOT a Spirit.

The Bible doesn't say that God is flesh and bones. It is an inference you're making that is inconsistent with the rest of Scripture from the Bible. That which has been created the earth and that is there in has been created from what does not appear. Heb. 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Flesh and bones is not something that doesn't appear!

1Jn. 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. IMHO, those are some dangerous inferences to be making.