Does LDS doctrine clash with the Bible?

[pam]

I claim not to be disrespectful to any one individual and I try not to be disrespectful to any's beliefs. It is, however, a very difficult task because there are differences. Now, you are right Jesus is Jesus and that will never change. He is the same yesterday, today and forever just as God is God. On the other hand, there are those who believe God is the sun or part of creation. There are those that worship the creation rather than the creator. This doesn't change who God really is, but the sun god is not the god I serve. Jehovah Witnesses respect Jesus as being Michael the archangel. I do not belief that Jesus is an angel. I believe the Scripture teaches He is God. Muslims respect Jesus as a great prophet, but not as God or the Son of God (God the Son). I believe it is important to know who Jesus is. To know Him is to have eternal life. I believe, for instance, that He is not my elder brother who is cut from the same pre-existing spiritual cloth as I. There is no Biblical support for these views of JWs, muslims and many other groups. Is there? If there were, that would be a different story for me as it is for you. If Jesus is your spiritual brother and Jesus is not mine, what is it that you find irritating or disrespectful about what I share sincerely from my understanding of the Bible?

Again let me say..when using the phrases Your Jesus or My Jesus it denotes that there are differences in the Jesus that we are attempting to gain a personal relationship with. It is the same Jesus. How you have come to accept your relationship with Him is up to you. The role he plays in your life is up to you. On that I agree. But we are still talking about the same Jesus. That is what I am trying to say.

[Hemidakota]

Many Christians and Jews throughout history have claimed visions from God or his messengers. Angels on Assignment, by Rev. Roland Buck was popular in the late 1970s. Heaven is So Real! by Choo Thomas, came out recently. Both authors claimed visitations from angels, and visions from God. Personally, I gained fresh encouragement from both, but no revolutionary doctrine.

Joseph Smith's revelations were/are far more controversial. He introduced radically different doctrines, and declared the standing church to be in apostasy, and without spiritual authority to conduct vital sacraments. As with the less known authors I mentioned above, Joseph Smith's offering to the world will continue to be assessed by various means. Some will accept, many won't.

For us evangelicals, the Bible, as well as our history of teachings and interpretations largely inform our understanding. Additionally, it's always wise to seek the direction of the Holy Spirit in all spiritual inquiry.

Sorry PC, I hate to be the one to refute their claims with seeing the FATHER. Not going to happen after Joseph Smith since the Savior made it clear that there are requirements must be met to complete this journey.

[James_Fryman]

The easiest way to answer this question is no LDS teachings do not go against the bible except in places where the bible goes against its self

[Bluejay]

Hi, AJ.

The biggest issue with me is how you and I see Jesus. We are seeing two different persons. For instance, your Jesus is your elder brother, but my Jesus is my Lord and God. There is an irreconcilable difference. Don’t you think so? I think the difference is a question of life and death.

I'm not sure I understand why this makes such a big difference for you.

We still believe that Jesus died for our sins, and that, by so doing, He made it possible for us to live with Him again. We simply call Jesus by one more title, and one that simply follows directly from the wording in the Scriptures.

It amazes me that every little difference in detail can become a "question of life and death," and result in huge divisions in our religion (Mormons are guilty of this, too, so don't think I'm singling you out here).

For instance, is there really that dramatic a difference between Sunday Sabbath and Saturday Sabbath?

Is there really that dramatic a difference between dipping a head in a bowl and dunking a body in a river?

Is there really that dramatic a difference between a Trinity and a Godhead?

Is this sort of thing really the big difference between us and you?

I think there are larger differences than this (e.g. the Three Kingdoms, eternal marriage, modern-day prophets, etc.): surely you don't think the extra title we give Jesus is that big a deal?

[Islander]

Hi, Islander.

I assume you're referring to this blanket statement:

This is referred to as "cherry-picking," or, in worse cases, "special pleading," and we do do it. Even if we do it with authorization from God, it's still called "cherry-picking."

What gave you the impression that I have a problem with this?

My comments only addressed the five angels that were not included in the manual: what does that have to do with the mission of Moroni, or with my testimony of it?

I humbly suggest that you consider the possibility that I might have already done so.

That possibility apparently hasn't crossed your mind yet.

I was referring to your assertion that the statement by Pres. Hinckley is an example of cherry picking...I am not interested in what other religions do.

[aj4u]

Then is it correct to characterize your view as holding that salvation as a function of correct doctrine?

Is that a biblical concept?

... and btw, the what we find disrespectful in you is dishonest or lazy inaccuracy in your portrayal of what we believe - and when corrected, you do not apologize. Honesty - try it you'll probably like it.

Snow, it is not my view of salvation; it is the Biblical view. I just accept it. I do not accept the term “Trinity” because it is not in the Bible, but I believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I have already answered your question. It seems you are not happy with it or you want a positive response according to your assumptions of what I believe. Is that what your trying to do? Jehovah Witnesses oppose the trinity concept as well as you, but their Jesus is Michael the archangel. To me, their Jesus is not the one I trust or believe in for my salvation; therefore, they have a different Jesus. Do you agree? Just what is it you are disagreeing with of what I said? I'll see to it if I cannot back up what I said with the Scriptures from the Bible. If you can convince me through the Bible that Mormonism is the way I should go, I am yours or up for grabs. IMHO, you seem to be holding back what you really feel about my views.

[aj4u]

Hi, AJ.

I'm not sure I understand why this makes such a big difference for you.

We still believe that Jesus died for our sins, and that, by so doing, He made it possible for us to live with Him again. We simply call Jesus by one more title, and one that simply follows directly from the wording in the Scriptures.

It amazes me that every little difference in detail can become a "question of life and death," and result in huge divisions in our religion (Mormons are guilty of this, too, so don't think I'm singling you out here).

For instance, is there really that dramatic a difference between Sunday Sabbath and Saturday Sabbath?

Is there really that dramatic a difference between dipping a head in a bowl and dunking a body in a river?

Is there really that dramatic a difference between a Trinity and a Godhead?

Is this sort of thing really the big difference between us and you?

I think there are larger differences than this (e.g. the Three Kingdoms, eternal marriage, modern-day prophets, etc.): surely you don't think the extra title we give Jesus is that big a deal?

Saturday and Sunday Sabbaths are not important issues. The Bible says that. The Bible is silent about dipping and dunking. There isn't a dramatic or important difference between Trinitarian views and the Godhead that I noticed. The differences between the three kingdoms have never concerned me nor did it the apostles in the Bible as to our eternal standing or relationship with God; however, knowing who Jesus is makes the difference between eternal life and no life in Christ. Jesus ask his disciples "Who do you say I am?" If we don't know Jesus we don't have life John 17 : 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. If another man dies for our sins, that mans death was in vain, and we will recieve no salvation or eternal life. I would say knowing who Jesus is is the the main issue here. Jesus is the total spiritual sum of all things in all Scripture. Jesus is God in the flesh!

:)

[dnc76v22]

I believe that The Father is God, The Son is God and The Holy Spirit is God as the Bible states. There is nothing to be embarrassed about.

Please provide Book, Chapter, and verse.

[JohnnyRudick]

Please provide Book, Chapter, and verse.

Actually this job would require several books Chapters and verses.:)

Wonder if he is up to it?

Bro. Rudick

[dnc76v22]

Actually this job would require several books Chapters and verses.:)

Wonder if he is up to it?

We can only wait.

[Bluejay]

Hi, Islander.

I was referring to your assertion that the statement by Pres. Hinckley is an example of cherry picking...I am not interested in what other religions do.

Okay, I see what you're saying now.

Please note that, while I did say that our religion cherry-picks the scriptures, I rejected Rockwoodchev's argument that the statement about Moroni is an example of cherry-picking.

My exact words were:

I personally don't think this scripture has been bent, cherry-picked, taken out of context or inappropriately cropped at all.

Source: Cherry-Picking

[bytebear]

Actually this job would require several books Chapters and verses.:)

Wonder if he is up to it?

Bro. Rudick

I would love to hear his interpretation of Romans 8:29.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate

to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the

firstborn among many brethren.

I can find no other interpretation other than the LDS view. Jesus is our brother. and the Bible says so!

[Bluejay]

Hi, AJ.

If we don't know Jesus we don't have life John 17 : 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Okay. But, you're not talking about "knowing Jesus": you're only quibbling about what we call Him.

Look:

Jesus ask his disciples "Who do you say I am?"

And the response:

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Jesus is God's Son. Peter said so, right there in the Bible, right in front of Jesus's face, no less, and Jesus approved of it. It's pretty clear who Jesus is and what His relationship to God is.

And, from Romans, we see that:

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God....

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

We are God's children, also. It says so, right there in the Bible.

So, since we have the same Father as Jesus, the title "Brother" is wholly appropriate: Thus, this LDS doctrine does not clash with what is written in the Bible.

But, this whole brother thing is more about our knowledge of ourselves than it is about our knowledge of Jesus. We believe the spiritual father-son relationship between God and Jesus, and between God and us, is literal, which tells us that we have a spark of divinity within us, as well.

But, realizing our own divinity does absolutely nothing to belittle or change what Jesus Christ is to us, so, it has absolutely nothing to do with how well we know Him or what He has done for us. He is still our Savior and our Exemplar, and He is still the key to unlock the gate to eternal life---and we still acknowledge this and worship Him appropriately.

[aj4u]

We can only wait.

John is right, but it can be done. Do you want to make me work that hard to prove it? Let me give you what I know already. In Heb. 1 God calls Jesus God "But thou Oh God is a Kingdom..." Now I hope we can agree that the father is God. The Bible says "God is Spirit." God is holy; therefore, He is the Holy Spirit (Holy+Spirit) Jn 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. This verse means He is not flesh and bone. The way I see it.

When in the Book of Acts Ananias and Sapphire lied to the Holy Spirit, they were told they lied to God and dropped dead on the spot. The apostle Philip asked Jesus to show him the Father and he would be happy. Jesus said, "How long have I been with you and you still don't know me?" He that has seen Jesus has seen the Father! Jesus is called Immanuel (God with us). Will that do? I can give you more. I am sure you are reading the Bible, but we are both seeing differently; in fact, Mormons are a very small minority of professing Christians along with JWs that cannot see that in Christ Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead. Just what I have mentioned alone speaks volumes that Jesus is God our Savior and creator (Not our older brother) according to the Bible). How about you give me chapter and verse where Jesus is our elder brother? The Bible states we are Jesus' creation. How can He be the brother to His own invention and creation made for His pleasure? When we accept Him on His terms, he adopts us as sons and gives us power to become and remain His sons and daughters. Until we are born again, we are only God’s creation and not His children. Those that know not Christ are of their father the devil.

Edited June 11, 2009 by aj4u

[Justice]

Now I hope we can agree that the father is God. The Bible says "God is Spirit." God is holy; therefore, He is the Holy Spirit (Holy+Spirit) Jn 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. This verse means He is not flesh and bone. The way I see it.

To say God is Spirit and the Spirit is Holy is not proof God is the Holy Spirit. This attempt at logic has caused you to misunderstand the nature of God.

Again, you are using man's ways to understand the things of God.

[Justice]

Modern revelation emphatically declares that the Father has a body of flesh and bones, just like the Son. If you deny modern revelation the Bible will be a mystery to you.

God is a dual being just as we are. We have both a spirit body and a physical body. The Father does as well, but He is perfected and exalted, we are not.

[Islander]

John is right, but it can be done. Do you want to make me work that hard to prove it? Let me give you what I know already. In Heb. 1 God calls Jesus God "But thou Oh God is a Kingdom..." Now I hope we can agree that the father is God. The Bible says "God is Spirit." God is holy; therefore, He is the Holy Spirit (Holy+Spirit) Jn 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. This verse means He is not flesh and bone. The way I see it.

When in the Book of Acts Ananias and Sapphire lied to the Holy Spirit, they were told they lied to God and dropped dead on the spot. The apostle Philip asked Jesus to show him the Father and he would be happy. Jesus said, "How long have I been with you and you still don't know me?" He that has seen Jesus has seen the Father! Jesus is called Immanuel (God with us). Will that do? I can give you more. I am sure you are reading the Bible, but we are both seeing differently; in fact, Mormons are a very small minority of professing Christians along with JWs that cannot see that in Christ Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead. Just what I have mentioned alone speaks volumes that Jesus is God our Savior and creator (Not our older brother) according to the Bible). How about you give me chapter and verse where Jesus is our elder brother? The Bible states we are Jesus' creation. How can He be the brother to His own invention and creation made for His pleasure? When we accept Him on His terms, he adopts us as sons and gives us power to become and remain His sons and daughters. Until we are born again, we are only God’s creation and not His children. Those that know not Christ are of their father the devil.

I am sorry, but that sounds like 4th grade logic.

[aj4u]

I am sorry, but that sounds like 4th grade logic.

It is written, "Except ye become as a child ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

[aj4u]

Modern revelation emphatically declares that the Father has a body of flesh and bones, just like the Son. If you deny modern revelation the Bible will be a mystery to you.

God is a dual being just as we are. We have both a spirit body and a physical body. The Father does as well, but He is perfected and exalted, we are not.

I know, but this modern revelation cannot be backed up with God's word in the Bible. Anyone can come up with modern prophecies and revelation. All we have is the Bible to check to see if it be from God. God's church is huge worldwide and the only ones willing to believe this modern day revelation you speak of are Mormons. God has not shown the majority of Christendom this new thing you speak of. That is why there are so few that believe it. God always announces in the ancient word of prophecy any new thing He plans on doing. It has not not been announced in the ancient writings. I don't see a hint of Joseph Smith, golden plates and the Americas in the Bible. Every prophet in the Bible that was from God gave a word and it happened exactly as stated. CT Russell of the Watchtower society is the prophet for the JWs. His prophecies have failed consistently and so has David Berg's. Joseph Smith has given prophecy that have not and can never be fulfilled as well. Why should I see Mormons any different than JWs who also believe they are the only true church for this generation and that Jesus is a created being rather than the creator? This is not meant to disrespect your believe, but it is my looking after my soul and searching the Scriptures to see if what you say is so. I am also hoping that you can search the Scriptures to be sure of why you believe you have the truth and all of Christianity is wrong. If Joseph Smith is God’s new modern day prophet, all of Christianity is wrong for not honoring him as such including myself.

Edited June 12, 2009 by aj4u

[Bluejay]

Hi, AJ.

John is right, but it can be done. Do you want to make me work that hard to prove it? Let me give you what I know already. In Heb. 1 God calls Jesus God "But thou Oh God is a Kingdom..."

So, Jesus is God because God spoke to Him and called Him "God"?

A God who apparently talks to Himself.

-----

Now I hope we can agree that the father is God.

Mormons believe that there are three gods. Jesus is one of these three: thus, it is perfectly acceptable for Jesus to be called, "God."

-----

The Bible says "God is Spirit." God is holy; therefore, He is the Holy Spirit (Holy+Spirit)

Why do you treat it like a word game, AJ?

Semantics is not the substance of truth.

-----

Jn 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. This verse means He is not flesh and bone. The way I see it.

Man is also a spirit (Zech. 12:1; Eccl. 12:7; Matt. 26:41; James 2:26).

And...

For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy...

Here we have John the Baptist, a man, who has a spirit, and is also called "holy" in the Bible: proof that John the Baptist is also the Holy Ghost.

Thus, John the Baptist is also Jesus and Heavenly Father.

This is what happens when you treat the Bible like a word game.

-----

How about you give me chapter and verse where Jesus is our elder brother?

I believe this was already done upthread:

I would love to hear his interpretation of Romans 8:29.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate

to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the

firstborn among many brethren.

I can find no other interpretation other than the LDS view. Jesus is our brother. and the Bible says so!

Emphasis mine.

[aj4u]

To say God is Spirit and the Spirit is Holy is not proof God is the Holy Spirit. This attempt at logic has caused you to misunderstand the nature of God.

Again, you are using man's ways to understand the things of God.

God cannot be understood with human logic. It is the Bible that states that God is Spirit and that He is Holy, and I believe the Scriptures when it states that the Holy Spirit is God. Your problem is not with my logic as much as it is with accepting and trusting the Bible for what it states. It is not my logic I promote; it is the Scriptures!

[Snow]

Snow, it is not my view of salvation; it is the Biblical view.

So you believe that salvation is by faith, not faith only, but also correct doctrine.

What other requirements are there to your view.

I just accept it.

Yeah - right - whatever. For the record, you don't need to play silly word games with me. I am not impressed by you claiming that your opinion is something other than an interpretation of what you have read in scripture.

I do not accept the term “Trinity” because it is not in the Bible, but I believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I have already answered your question. It seems you are not happy with it or you want a positive response according to your assumptions of what I believe. Is that what your trying to do?

Boy - you're slippery. Why?

Can you drop the games and get to the meat of the question? Who cares if you accept the term "Trinity." The question (one of the questions) is whether you accept the belief or concept embodied in the notion of the Trinity.

Do you or do you not?

Jehovah Witnesses oppose the trinity concept as well as you, but their Jesus is Michael the archangel. To me, their Jesus is not the one I trust or believe in for my salvation; therefore, they have a different Jesus. Do you agree?

I neither agree nor disagree. I am uninterested in JW belief at present.

Just what is it you are disagreeing with of what I said? I'll see to it if I cannot back up what I said with the Scriptures from the Bible. If you can convince me through the Bible that Mormonism is the way I should go, I am yours or up for grabs. IMHO, you seem to be holding back what you really feel about my views.

I am not disagreeing with your beliefs - I can't even get a straight answer out of you about what you do believe.

Could you please answer the question... regardless of what term you like, do you accept the tradition idea of the Trinity?

[Snow]

God cannot be understood with human logic. It is the Bible that states that God is Spirit and that He is Holy, and I believe the Scriptures when it states that the Holy Spirit is God. Your problem is not with my logic as much as it is with accepting and trusting the Bible for what it states. It is not my logic I promote; it is the Scriptures!

Really?

He can't?

I guessing you can prove that some way or else you wouldn't assert it as fact. Can you?

[aj4u]

Hi, AJ.

Okay. But, you're not talking about "knowing Jesus": you're only quibbling about what we call Him.

Look:

And the response:

Jesus is God's Son. Peter said so, right there in the Bible, right in front of Jesus's face, no less, and Jesus approved of it. It's pretty clear who Jesus is and what His relationship to God is.

And, from Romans, we see that:

We are God's children, also. It says so, right there in the Bible.

So, since we have the same Father as Jesus, the title "Brother" is wholly appropriate: Thus, this LDS doctrine does not clash with what is written in the Bible.

But, this whole brother thing is more about our knowledge of ourselves than it is about our knowledge of Jesus. We believe the spiritual father-son relationship between God and Jesus, and between God and us, is literal, which tells us that we have a spark of divinity within us, as well.

But, realizing our own divinity does absolutely nothing to belittle or change what Jesus Christ is to us, so, it has absolutely nothing to do with how well we know Him or what He has done for us. He is still our Savior and our Exemplar, and He is still the key to unlock the gate to eternal life---and we still acknowledge this and worship Him appropriately.

Hi Blue Jay:

I can see where your coming from on this issue. I believe He is the Son of God as you state. I cannot and will not attempt to refute that. However, Jesus is more than that. It is written that He is the mighty God, the wonderfull counselor the alpha and the omega, the First and the Last, the great I am and the exact representation of all that God is (His essense and being). These are titles and positions that only the most high God can have and He doesn't share His glory with another. I can back up in Scripture what I say should you challenge any of my statements. Jesus is the Word of God. God exalts His word above His name. Jesus was God before He took the subordinate role of the Son of man. The Word who is Jesus in the flesh always existed, but not as the son of man or the Son of God. There was never, however, a time God was without His word (who is Jesus as of 2000 years ago). If anyone cannot see this, they have missed the mark according to Scripture; not according to my statements! There is no evidence that Jesus is our elder brother. I believe the Scripture that that is not honoring God as God SHOULD BE HONORED!

Edited June 12, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

Really?

He can't?

I guessing you can prove that some way or else you wouldn't assert it as fact. Can you?

What part of what I mentioned did you want me to prove from the Scripture? I said several things.