BOM and the Bible

[AnthonyB]

This is for Non-LDS posters (or LDS who really want to participate)...I know that LDS doctrine and tradtional Christian doctrine differ somewhat. However when I was reading the Book of Mormon, there wasn't much that if I veiwed from traditional veiwpoint couldn't be fit inside a traditional (non-LDS) Christian viewpoint.

For instance the BoM gives IMHO clearer trinitarian verses then the NT.

So could people list any BoM verses that would might be incompatible with NT teachings.

For instance some object to...

"For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23).

But for me it could be veiwed as saying, despite our best attempts (and God expects our best), we still need grace to be saved. Or as in the Keith Green's song, "Just keep doing your best and pray that its blest and Jesus takes care of the rest."

Non-LDS can give verses they think contradicts traditional Christians theology in the BoM.

LDS can give verse that express LDS truths in the BoM that you don't think traditional Christians could accept.

[rameumptom]

The problem is, there are so very many conflicting teachings in the Bible/New Testament, that one can find arguments within its own pages!

Paul's faith or James' works? An anthropomorphic God or only a spirit-being? A pacifist Jesus or a war-like Jesus? I could go on....

[Faded]

To Rameumptom's point, I have an easier time finding contradictions within the Bible itself than I can find between the Book of Mormon and the Bible. This usually comes about because of two different accounts of the same event say completely different things.

I just shared the following example in the "Bible Quiz" thread and I think it demonstrates my point perfectly:

Acts 1:18 "With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood."

Matthew 27:3-5

"3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders.

4 "I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood." "What is that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility."

5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself."

Okay so who bought the field, the chief priests or Judas himself? How did he die? By falling from something high up and being ripped open and his bowels gushing out ... or hanging himself. Two very different methods of death obviously.

The death of John the Baptist contains similar apparent contradictions. Ultimately, we have to assume that the two versions of the same story in the Bible are telling us two parts of the whole story. That is exactly how the Book of Mormon and the Bible should be read together.

[antsyl]

Man, there is some scary stuff in here.

[Guest Believer_1829]

This is for Non-LDS posters (or LDS who really want to participate)...I know that LDS doctrine and tradtional Christian doctrine differ somewhat. However when I was reading the Book of Mormon, there wasn't much that if I veiwed from traditional veiwpoint couldn't be fit inside a traditional (non-LDS) Christian viewpoint.

For instance the BoM gives IMHO clearer trinitarian verses then the NT.

So could people list any BoM verses that would might be incompatible with NT teachings.

For instance some object to...

"For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23).

But for me it could be veiwed as saying, despite our best attempts (and God expects our best), we still need grace to be saved. Or as in the Keith Green's song, "Just keep doing your best and pray that its blest and Jesus takes care of the rest."

Non-LDS can give verses they think contradicts traditional Christians theology in the BoM.

LDS can give verse that express LDS truths in the BoM that you don't think traditional Christians could accept.

Protestant Christianity accepts the 2 Nephi verse whether they know it or not...

- Most BAC's will tell you that to be saved all you need to do is 1) have faith in Christ 2) Confess His name and ask him into your heart. Those are works and "all we can do".

- Some people believe that baptism and confirmation as commanded by Jesus are essential for believers.

- Some believe that in addition to baptism you must complete ordinances in a temple.

So really it comes down to the level of "all you can do" a person subscribes to... Because I doubt many Christians accept Carlton Pearson's theological musings on Universalism.

[jadams_4040]

To Rameumptom's point, I have an easier time finding contradictions within the Bible itself than I can find between the Book of Mormon and the Bible. This usually comes about because of two different accounts of the same event say completely different things.

I just shared the following example in the "Bible Quiz" thread and I think it demonstrates my point perfectly:

Acts 1:18 "With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood."

Matthew 27:3-5

"3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders.

4 "I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood." "What is that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility."

5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself."

Okay so who bought the field, the chief priests or Judas himself? How did he die? By falling from something high up and being ripped open and his bowels gushing out ... or hanging himself. Two very different methods of death obviously.

The death of John the Baptist contains similar apparent contradictions. Ultimately, we have to assume that the two versions of the same story in the Bible are telling us two parts of the whole story. That is exactly how the Book of Mormon and the Bible should be read together.

the quote in acts is not literal it is an allegory of bad things that begin to happen to him because of his iniquities, then in matthew it all gets the best of him and he kills himself.:)

[rameumptom]

JAdams

While yours is one way to read it (allegory), how can you be certain it is allegory? What in the Bible tells us that it is allegory? Seems to me we have two varying versions of a literal event - Judas' death.

[prisonchaplain]

The problem is, there are so very many conflicting teachings in the Bible/New Testament, that one can find arguments within its own pages!

Paul's faith or James' works? An anthropomorphic God or only a spirit-being? A pacifist Jesus or a war-like Jesus? I could go on....

Ironically, in my Sunday School class this fall, we're going to be looking at these very passages--the paradoxes of the Bible. One of my favorite examples (though perhaps not even biblical): Haste makes waste, but he who hesitates is lost. Both are true, both can be life changing, but on the surface, they are contradictory. So which is it? Better still, when is each counsel appropriate, and how do we discern? Sometimes the answer is not A or B, but YES--both.

[bmy-]

Man, there is some scary stuff in here.

Please try to contribute if you want to have any hope at all of rescuing us poor deranged mormons.

[antsyl]

the quote in acts is not literal it is an allegory of bad things that begin to happen to him because of his iniquities, then in matthew it all gets the best of him and he kills himself.:)

Well as you make your way thru Heaven on your way to a new destination, dont miss a chance to tell God what he did wrong. Im sure He will have great interest in your comments.

I bet he is sitting there totally confused and amazed that you are the one that figured Him out.

I never knew how lost Mormons were till I ventured into this site just to see how to can vegetables. It has been a real eye opener. An amazing eye opener.

[rameumptom]

Antsyl,

Why are you afraid of truth? The Bible has some problems with it, which I can prove historically. The Bible clearly teaches a flat earth with 4 corners, and was in the center of the universe. This belief went through the Middle Ages amongst Christians.

It was so entrenched, that Galileo was forced to recant his teaching on the earth revolving around the Sun, or be tortured under the Inquisition.

Puritans in America burned witches at the stake, because the Bible insists they be put to death. Of course, history shows that most "witches" were not witches at all, but innocent people falsely accused.

The Bible is the word of God. However, it is plainly not perfect, as God has allowed mankind their freedom to change it according to their wickedness or lack of faith. We have evidence of this in Jeremiah, where the prophet accuses the priests of the temple of doing exactly that. And scholars today, including Bart Ehrman, have shown time and again how the scriptures were adapted and changed by people seeking to impose their own agendas. The Johannine Comma is a perfect example of Christians adding to the writings of the Bible intentionally, included in the KJV, and removed from most modern translations. This means that millions of people have read that insertion over the centuries and thought it was part of the Bible. If the Bible were indeed "God Breathed" and infallible, why would God allow such stuff to happen?

Mormons are no more lost than you or any other person. Each of us are struggling to find God as best we can. I'm sad that you have come to this site and then insult us with such a statement as you just made. Perhaps you would do well to take Jesus' advice "Judge not, lest ye be judged" (Matt 7:1).

Why are there so many Christian churches? Because the Bible can be interpreted in a variety of ways, depending on what we focus upon, what we choose to ignore, and how we impose our own views on the text. There are Christians that require baptism and Christians that say it isn't required. There are Christians that believe in the gifts of the Spirit, and others who insist that the gifts are no longer on earth. There are Christians who believe in the Trinity, in modalism, and in the Godhead. There are some who require obedience with faith, while others demand we only have to profess with our lips. Some condemn homosexuality and abortion, while others teach that these are not sin. In fact, the Episcopalian/American Anglican church are splitting on just these issues right now - how do they both read the same Bible differently, if it is perfect?

And all with the same Bible. If the Bible were "God breathed", why then isn't it easier for the common person to understand? Why would God intentionally create a book that is often self-contradictory and misleading, that would end up in thousands of Christians churches that often disagree on major and key points of doctrine?

Why would this same Bible tell us that in the last days an angel would come forth with the "everlasting gospel" to preach to all the world, if the world already had the everlasting gospel? (Rev 14:6). Or why would Peter prophesy that there would be a restitution/restoration of all things prior to the 2nd Coming of Christ, if nothing needed to be restored? (Acts 3).

I have yet to see a cogent answer to these questions. There are clear contradictions within the Bible, because God has allowed mankind to do what they will with it.

[prisonchaplain]

Antsyl,

Why are you afraid of truth? The Bible has some problems with it, which I can prove historically. The Bible clearly teaches a flat earth with 4 corners, and was in the center of the universe. This belief went through the Middle Ages amongst Christians.

IMHO, you blame the Bible for faulty interpretation...or even "over-interpretation." So often we say, "If the Bible says A, then B must also be true..." That's usually a dangerous game leading to all kinds of non-biblical assumptions.

Puritans in America burned witches at the stake, because the Bible insists they be put to death. Of course, history shows that most "witches" were not witches at all, but innocent people falsely accused.

Again, faulty interpretation, faultier discernment, and are we Christians not just a little too comfortable with modern forms of fortune telling?

The Bible is the word of God. However, it is plainly not perfect, as God has allowed mankind their freedom to change it according to their wickedness or lack of faith.

The subtle but important nuance I want to highlight is that the word of God is not faulty, but often we misperceive it, and then allow human power struggle and avarice to mix in with that error, creating all kinds of spiritual chaos and evil.

The Johannine Comma is a perfect example of Christians adding to the writings of the Bible intentionally, included in the KJV, and removed from most modern translations. This means that millions of people have read that insertion over the centuries and thought it was part of the Bible. If the Bible were indeed "God Breathed" and infallible, why would God allow such stuff to happen?

First, I'd suggest that the doctrine remained true, but there is no doubt that there are minor areas of dispute in the Bible. Most passages that contain textual controversy are not substantive, when it comes to teaching. And, despite the subordinationism of Jehovah's Witnesses, the modalism of United Pentecostals, and the henotheism of the LDS Godhead doctrine, the vast majority of the Christian world remains committed to the teaching found in the Hohannine Comma. Of course, if it's wrong, the your point becomes absolutely true.

[bmy-]

Well as you make your way thru Heaven on your way to a new destination, dont miss a chance to tell God what he did wrong. Im sure He will have great interest in your comments.

I bet he is sitting there totally confused and amazed that you are the one that figured Him out.

I never knew how lost Mormons were till I ventured into this site just to see how to can vegetables. It has been a real eye opener. An amazing eye opener.

You see.. we never knew how lost you were until you came to this site. I wish you would quit making those types of comments.. as it says worlds about your capacity for reason.

Stay and play a while. Be friendly as often as possible and when you have to be blunt.. do it as politely as possible. It's okay to lose your cool once in a while but limit that. Who knows.. you might learn something from.. and we also might learn from you.

Edited August 17, 2009 by bmy-

[antsyl]

Antsyl,

Why are you afraid of truth? The Bible has some problems with it, which I can prove historically. The Bible clearly teaches a flat earth with 4 corners, and was in the center of the universe. This belief went through the Middle Ages amongst Christians.

It was so entrenched, that Galileo was forced to recant his teaching on the earth revolving around the Sun, or be tortured under the Inquisition.

Puritans in America burned witches at the stake, because the Bible insists they be put to death. Of course, history shows that most "witches" were not witches at all, but innocent people falsely accused.

The Bible is the word of God. However, it is plainly not perfect, as God has allowed mankind their freedom to change it according to their wickedness or lack of faith. We have evidence of this in Jeremiah, where the prophet accuses the priests of the temple of doing exactly that. And scholars today, including Bart Ehrman, have shown time and again how the scriptures were adapted and changed by people seeking to impose their own agendas. The Johannine Comma is a perfect example of Christians adding to the writings of the Bible intentionally, included in the KJV, and removed from most modern translations. This means that millions of people have read that insertion over the centuries and thought it was part of the Bible. If the Bible were indeed "God Breathed" and infallible, why would God allow such stuff to happen?

Mormons are no more lost than you or any other person. Each of us are struggling to find God as best we can. I'm sad that you have come to this site and then insult us with such a statement as you just made. Perhaps you would do well to take Jesus' advice "Judge not, lest ye be judged" (Matt 7:1).

Why are there so many Christian churches? Because the Bible can be interpreted in a variety of ways, depending on what we focus upon, what we choose to ignore, and how we impose our own views on the text. There are Christians that require baptism and Christians that say it isn't required. There are Christians that believe in the gifts of the Spirit, and others who insist that the gifts are no longer on earth. There are Christians who believe in the Trinity, in modalism, and in the Godhead. There are some who require obedience with faith, while others demand we only have to profess with our lips. Some condemn homosexuality and abortion, while others teach that these are not sin. In fact, the Episcopalian/American Anglican church are splitting on just these issues right now - how do they both read the same Bible differently, if it is perfect?

And all with the same Bible. If the Bible were "God breathed", why then isn't it easier for the common person to understand? Why would God intentionally create a book that is often self-contradictory and misleading, that would end up in thousands of Christians churches that often disagree on major and key points of doctrine?

Why would this same Bible tell us that in the last days an angel would come forth with the "everlasting gospel" to preach to all the world, if the world already had the everlasting gospel? (Rev 14:6). Or why would Peter prophesy that there would be a restitution/restoration of all things prior to the 2nd Coming of Christ, if nothing needed to be restored? (Acts 3).

I have yet to see a cogent answer to these questions. There are clear contradictions within the Bible, because God has allowed mankind to do what they will with it.

I read the first line and just have to laugh. YOU can PROVE God is wrong???? thats funny

[antsyl]

IMHO, you blame the Bible for faulty interpretation...or even "over-interpretation." So often we say, "If the Bible says A, then B must also be true..." That's usually a dangerous game leading to all kinds of non-biblical assumptions.

Again, faulty interpretation, faultier discernment, and are we Christians not just a little too comfortable with modern forms of fortune telling?

The subtle but important nuance I want to highlight is that the word of God is not faulty, but often we misperceive it, and then allow human power struggle and avarice to mix in with that error, creating all kinds of spiritual chaos and evil.

First, I'd suggest that the doctrine remained true, but there is no doubt that there are minor areas of dispute in the Bible. Most passages that contain textual controversy are not substantive, when it comes to teaching. And, despite the subordinationism of Jehovah's Witnesses, the modalism of United Pentecostals, and the henotheism of the LDS Godhead doctrine, the vast majority of the Christian world remains committed to the teaching found in the Hohannine Comma. Of course, if it's wrong, the your point becomes absolutely true.

Chaplin,

I have a high regard for pastors but you frighten me with the things you have said here. If that is what you are passing on to the people you talk to then you will be held to a higher standard and God will deal with you in a much harsher way.

The Bible is the perfect word of God. I am continuously amazed at those who promote such.

[antsyl]

You see.. we never knew how lost you were until you came to this site. I wish you would quit making those types of comments.. as it says worlds about your capacity for reason.

Stay and play a while. Be friendly as often as possible and when you have to be blunt.. do it as politely as possible. It's okay to lose your cool once in a while but limit that. Who knows.. you might learn something from.. and we also might learn from you.

Ahhh so young and yet so wise. I remember when I was little like you. I thought my dad was dumb too. Maybe in my next 50 years I will attain as much wisdom as you have shown.

PLEASE!!!

[Guest Believer_1829]

Chaplin,

I have a high regard for pastors but you frighten me with the things you have said here. If that is what you are passing on to the people you talk to then you will be held to a higher standard and God will deal with you in a much harsher way.

The Bible is the perfect word of God. I am continuously amazed at those who promote such.

Interesting...

What part, exactly, in PC's post do you take exception to?

[antsyl]

Interesting...

What part, exactly, in PC's post do you take exception to?

Believer,

Thank you for asking that question. So I went back and read PCs post. I do apologize to PC. And I hope he reads this. I sincerely do. I misread a quote that he had used from someone else and thought it was his. It was not. That was my mistake. Please forgive me.

He was write. I just read it wrong. Which is funny because that is kind of what he was talking about.

Sorry PrisonChaplin. My mistake.

Thanks for asking that question.

[beefche]

Well as you make your way thru Heaven on your way to a new destination, dont miss a chance to tell God what he did wrong. Im sure He will have great interest in your comments.

I bet he is sitting there totally confused and amazed that you are the one that figured Him out.

I never knew how lost Mormons were till I ventured into this site just to see how to can vegetables. It has been a real eye opener. An amazing eye opener.

antsyl, be respectful of everyone's faith and belief. You may disagree but it is rude and presumptuous to say that Mormons are lost or have "scary" beliefs.

[Guest Believer_1829]

Believer,

Thank you for asking that question. So I went back and read PCs post. I do apologize to PC. And I hope he reads this. I sincerely do. I misread a quote that he had used from someone else and thought it was his. It was not. That was my mistake. Please forgive me.

He was write. I just read it wrong. Which is funny because that is kind of what he was talking about.

Sorry PrisonChaplin. My mistake.

Thanks for asking that question.

I thought perhaps you had rushed through his post and misunderstood, that's why I asked the question.

:)

[bytebear]

I wonder if anyone has read this article:

The Baptist Version of the Book of Mormon - by Lynn ridenhour

[Guest Believer_1829]

I have.

[prisonchaplain]

Chaplin,

I have a high regard for pastors but you frighten me with the things you have said here. If that is what you are passing on to the people you talk to then you will be held to a higher standard and God will deal with you in a much harsher way. The Bible is the perfect word of God. I am continuously amazed at those who promote such.

Well, I certainly don't want to be a frightening pastor, nor do I want to face judgment for passing on error. The Bible is God's word. I use it as my measure against any religious teaching. However, there are editions that have misprints, there are likely some translations that may err on a particular passage. For example, do you consider the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (published by the Watchtower) to be the perfect word of God???

What I've said here and elsewhere is that there are a few passages with textual controversy. None of them involve major doctrine. Perhaps the biggest example is the longer ending of Mark, found in the KJV, included with notation in the NIV. I have preached from this ending, noted the controversy, and pointed to other passages that support the content of that longer ending.

So, antsyl, how have I frightened you, and how might I improve my teaching, so as not to incur God's disfavor on Judgment Day?

[beefche]

Believer,

Thank you for asking that question. So I went back and read PCs post. I do apologize to PC. And I hope he reads this. I sincerely do. I misread a quote that he had used from someone else and thought it was his. It was not. That was my mistake. Please forgive me.

He was write. I just read it wrong. Which is funny because that is kind of what he was talking about.

Sorry PrisonChaplin. My mistake.

Thanks for asking that question.

PC, here's antsyl's apology to you.

[prisonchaplain]

Believer,

Thank you for asking that question. So I went back and read PCs post. I do apologize to PC. And I hope he reads this. I sincerely do. I misread a quote that he had used from someone else and thought it was his. It was not. That was my mistake. Please forgive me.

He was write. I just read it wrong. Which is funny because that is kind of what he was talking about.

Sorry PrisonChaplin. My mistake.

Thanks for asking that question.

OOPS! Should have read this before I posted my response...