Bars, Restaurants, Nightclubs, etc - living in the world without being a part of the world

[Seanette]

I think the main problem we as members are guilty of is seeing alcohol as 'bad' and 'wrong'. Just because we do not drink it does not make it some sort of devilish evil substance.

My own very personal POV is that I have seen so much evil come from alcohol use (child/spouse abuse, sexual immorality, drunk driving that results in the deaths of innocents, etc.) that I honestly can't think of any good that could come from consuming the stuff that can't be obtained in much safer ways.

Please note that I do not hold that out to be LDS doctrine, but that it is my own personal belief. To the best of my knowledge, that belief does not conflict with either the Standard Works or modern revelation (if I find out it does, time to revise that belief to comply with Scripture).

Another side note: we're constantly hearing that having babies is a bad thing because the earth is supposedly running out of resources (which is directly contradicted by modern revelation), from the very same people who think nothing of wasting grain, fruit, etc., to make their beer, wine, and liquor. The food deliberately ruined to make alcoholic beverages could be put to much better use feeding the hungry, IMO.

[MikeUpton]

This starts off to be a little different take on a response perhaps, but I think it fits in the end. When I was as young as 11, I was offered cocaine by a fellow classmate. I said no. Several times when I was a teenager, I was offered marijuana, each time I turned it down. (I was also less active as a teenager, this was just in my nature, though I was less active I still believed in the Word of Wisdom) I did have my faults, that just didn't happen to be one of them.

Through late teen years I was especially approached many many times about marijuana. At 17 I attended a Metallica/Guns n' Roses concert, and stood in general admission pretty close to the front, not too far from the bands. Major contact high, but I was offered marijuana there too, and I turned it down. When I was 17-18 i would hang out with my friends and there was a couple times they'd all start drinking in front of me, not only drinking, but continuously whining about how I wasn't drinking with them. I had a lot of history with these friends, needless to say, or I wouldn't be friends with them for long. I turned it down then. When I was 18 I got active in the church. Once or twice or perhaps three times I'd hang out with them, stay the night, there was peer pressure to use marijuana, but i did not touch it.

Here's my point: I may have been a teetotaler on my own, growing up, not caring to partake of alcohol or illicit substances or whatnot, but over the years there is something I have learned: that is, we are not alone in the world, there are literal unseen forces constantly with us. I dont know about places like Olive Garden or whatnot, don't mistake that I am being too extreme on this, but I have learned it is not ok to have been hanging out with my friends when they did that sort of thing, whether i partook of their behaviors or not. We are in a constant struggle between good and evil, and when we surround ourselves with such substances and places we are opening ourselves to an attack of dark spirits that is needless, and ought to be avoided. Those who value the light of truth and understand the importance of influence whether behavior seems to be immediately affected or not, they will agree that we ought to keep ourselves well clear of places of spiritual darkness.

edit: and those of you that do not understand the abundance of unseen evil lurking in such places, it is wise that you pray to become aware of those forces and how they might influence you.

Edited May 31, 2009 by MikeUpton

[Guest TheLutheran]

. . . How do you feel about LDS business owners who serve coffee and/or alcohol in their establisments and conduct business on Sunday? . . .

Any thoughts?

[the Ogre]

Any thoughts?

Simple, they have to choose if they really want to stay in business or not. My son eventually wants to open an artisan bakery. He will sell what the customers are interested in. If that means selling some wines and coffee, then so be it.

I do not think there is a problem with it. What about Latter-day Saints who own strip-clubs? Don't be surprised. Stranger things have happened. I think this would be a problem. I do not like those kind of establishments anyway. I think a Latter-day Saint in that industry might want to look carefully at what he is doing.

[MikeUpton]

Any thoughts?

I don't think its a good thing personally, but this sort of practice is not limited to the LDS, there are many from other Christian churches or most religions included with this sort of practice, selling things or otherwise participating in business practices they don't believe in. Its roughly the same as the stereotypical Hindu who owns a liquor or other convenience store. (If those reading get upset with the stereotype, you haven't been to Sacramento, California. One of my best friends growing up was Hindu and his parents had such a store as well.) Their own religion might prohibit them (to an extreme point of even no kissing scenes in movies) from viewing some of the media they often sell in such a place. What I do is try to cast the beam from my own eye first, before I can see clearly to remove the splinter from someone else's.

Edited May 31, 2009 by MikeUpton

[MikeUpton]

Simple, they have to choose if they really want to stay in business or not. My son eventually wants to open an artisan bakery. He will sell what the customers are interested in. If that means selling some wines and coffee, then so be it.

I do not think there is a problem with it. What about Latter-day Saints who own strip-clubs? Don't be surprised. Stranger things have happened. I think this would be a problem. I do not like those kind of establishments anyway. I think a Latter-day Saint in that industry might want to look carefully at what he is doing.

It does seem there would be an issue of degrees there. Wines and coffee one thing. But a Mormon running a strip club? If his bishop found out he wouldn't be Mormon for long.

[pam]

Any thoughts?

Since I am one of the managers of a convenience store/gas station which is owned by very active LDS people perhaps I can answer this. They currently own 40 stores and are purchasing another one.

While a huge part of business in one of these stores is the selling of cigarettes and beer....you almost have to to stay in the business unfortunately. Doesn't mean you have to indulge in those same things. Customers have the ultimate responsibility of making the decision to buy or not to buy. We don't force them to purchase these items. It's all about providing the items that a good number of customers will buy.

Being open on Sunday is another requirement unfortunately to staying competitive in this kind of business. If we were to close down on Sundays, customers will just go somewhere else and may just continue to go to the other establishment. Fortunately having owners who are LDS, they are very open to working with their employees who are also LDS or of any other religion and would like to be able to attend Church services or have an objection to working on the Sabbath.

There are many people who work in businesses that provide tobacco or alcohol. Many of the huge companies that employ a large number of a community would also have LDS that work for them. Again, doesn't mean you condone it or have to indulge.

[Carl62]

It does seem there would be an issue of degrees there. Wines and coffee one thing. But a Mormon running a strip club? If his bishop found out he wouldn't be Mormon for long.

This is where it gets into a lot of gray areas and rationalizing, unfortunately. So where do you draw the line on all of this? Why would it be o.k. for me as an LDS to sell liquor to someone knowing that they potentially could go out on the road with it and kill a family of 5, as opposed to running a motel where I would allow patrons to purchase porn on their t.v.s like the Marriotts do, which wouldn't kill anybody? What about owning a convenience store? Are Playboys allowed to be sold there? What about Sports Illustrated swimsuit editions that are on the front racks? Or the general gossip/rag magazines? Whatever happened to 'avoid the appearance of evil'? I could go on with more, but I think you get the idea.

[lilered]

It is my belief that each of us has to answer for our own actions. I traveled extensively in my job prior to early retirement. In so doing, I often took employees and clients to lunch or dinner. More often than not, they had heard of Mormons, but most knew few. I would always let them pick their favorite spot to eat when I was with them. Most of the time, these places served alcoholic beverages as well as tea, coffee, etc.. I would always order a non-alcoholic or decafinnated beverage. Usually someone would ask if I was LDS/Mormon the first time. It often times would generate a positive conversation about the church and the Wof W. What I found intriguing was that in the future, they would always make a point of telling the waitress/waiter that I was a Mormon and therfore would not be ordering an alcholic beverage. The same held true my wife and I attended Company parties or non-company parties. Usually we were told they would have non-alcholic beverages for us to drink. My point is that the world does watch what we do, and most do not try to entice one to break their religious beliefs. Where I would draw the line is if someone wanted me to accompany them to a Strip Club after dinner. I would always politely refuse and return back to the hotel. Usually I was never asked again. I personally would never own a bar, nor would I sell tobacco products. However, that is me and I feel comfortable making that statement but at the same time I would not condemn someone else for doing it. They have to make their own personal peace and answer for themselves. I beleive that owning a Strip Club steps over the line in that their is no benefit or good that can come from such a place and I doubt that anyone honestly argue that the Holy Spirit would be in attendance to those who entered in. THe same as I believe honestly that everyone could answer that these type of places are created for evil purposes. But that is from my perspective.

[MikeUpton]

Like I said I don't really pay so much attention to what others are doing. So I haven't exactly thought of where the line was. And by saying what I said, it doesn't mean I am saying its ok. I just pointed out there were degrees. I dont feel I have to defend the actions of any LDS who makes whatever decision he's made by whatever degree he's rested on. It wasn't my decision.

The potential of something bad happening is exactly that: a potential. God also created our bodies and all the things that are in the earth, and gave us the gift of free agency, provided all of these things to us with full knowledge that hey, we have full freedom of choice, we have potential to go about killing each other, misusing the things of the earth, etc etc. Well, potentially.

I'm no extremist too, I visit restaurants that sell liquor to people. I don't feel I'm wrong in doing so. But I know the difference between visiting the Olive Garden and going into a bar or strip club. Olive Garden is a place of business designed around the concept of eating their food. The focus of the other places are inappropriate.

This is where it gets into a lot of gray areas and rationalizing, unfortunately. So where do you draw the line on all of this? Why would it be o.k. for me as an LDS to sell liquor to someone knowing that they potentially could go out on the road with it and kill a family of 5, as opposed to running a motel where I would allow patrons to purchase porn on their t.v.s like the Marriotts do, which wouldn't kill anybody? What about owning a convenience store? Are Playboys allowed to be sold there? What about Sports Illustrated swimsuit editions that are on the front racks? Or the general gossip/rag magazines? Whatever happened to 'avoid the appearance of evil'? I could go on with more, but I think you get the idea.

Edited May 31, 2009 by MikeUpton

[Jim108]

If you are talking about a place whose sole purpose is to sell alcohol, I say no. We are to avoid even the appearance of evil.

But I live in the SLC area. There are many restaurants I frequent such as Chili's, TGIFridays, Iggys Sports Grill, Olive Garden that have bars within the restaurant. Just because I go there doesn't mean I have to indulge in those services as well. I have even taken my kids to them.

Even office parties there has been alcohol. Don't think just because it's in the SLC area that those parties don't have alcohol. Not everyone is LDS so you will find the beer and the alcohol there as well. Again, doesn't mean I have to indulge.

Now if you were to go to an LDS function...and there was alcohol...THAT would be a problem. haha

'We are to avoid even the appearance of evil."

It seems to me that there is where we would find Jesus first. They need the "good news" too. I have preached the gospel over many a cold one. Your cold one can be a soda or ice water, but whatever, get out there and preach.

[pam]

I've been in many bars during my life time and not once did I feel the Spirit to "preach" to anyone. Quite the contrary.

[the Ogre]

Did you feel the spirit to offer free spritzes of binacca?