Staying in the Church?

[FlaviusHambonius]

Not at all. Let me share my sometimes "extreme" examples, like my wife says.

Imagine I feel I do not like my wife. I do not find her attractive, I do not want to be with her and I feel I do not love her any more. Delhi's advise equate to: "Well, stay with her just for the kids...go ahead and have a fling here and there so you can take care of your sexual needs...don't bother her or tell her how ugly she is...just be nice to her...have a date with a pretty girl now and again but be discrete...don't make waves at home just hang in there..."

Instead of listening to these self appointed sages, we should head to the counsel of the brethren. If sin has entered into your live in thought or in deed, repent. Seek the counsel of your priesthood leaders, avail yourself of help within the fellowship, do ALL things necessary to strengthen your faith and your marriage. Cast out of your heart and your mind the thoughts the enemy has planted therein. Remember your covenants with the Lord and the calling to which you have been called. Remember how kind, merciful and forgiving the Lord has been with you all the days of your live. Remember that you once loved this woman, and promised before Him and witnesses to care, provide, protect and honor her. Do whatever it takes, no mater how much and how long to preserve what the Lord has consecrated.

That would be the right kind of advise, don't you think?

Or maybe we can use your infidelity scenerio a little differently:

Maybe you thought that your wife was as true blue as they get, as far as being a faithful partner to you. One day you started to see some differences in her behaviour and little nuances that you had never noticed before. You had even heard from a couple of freinds that they suspected she was not being faithfull to you. But she never approached you about the truth of the matter and you never confronted her about this so called infidelity and so you kept it to yourself---you were in denial that your precious wife could ever do such a thing--it was just not possible.

So one day it just came to a hilt and it was eating you up. So you decided to go out sniffing around and do a little investigating on your own. You were devastated to find out that in fact your wife had been living a life of infidelity.

But your wife never did approach you with the fact that she was unfaithful to you.

Your wife = church history

Most of us growing up never knew much about controversial history within the church, it was always the candy-coated version in Sunday school up through seminary classes, in fact we didn't know it was the candy-coated version--we just thought that was the only version albeit it was only minimal information regarding church history.

Don't get me wrong I wouldn't expect a Sunday school teacher to bring up the Adam-God Theory or the exploits of Joseph Smiths Polygamy etc.

Those were the years to be taught about The Father--The Saviour--The Plan of Salvation.

But the long and short of it is that most people in the church as they mature they will know nothing of this so called church history and many still don't unless they start sniffing around and studying it out for themselves.

The church is certainly not going to go out of it's way to lay it all out on a silver platter for members, they never have--It is upon the member to find out on his or her own.

I will say the church has come along way in getting out controversial information about it's history.

We have FAIR Apologetics--FARM--Shields--Mormon Fortress and other web-sites.

We have books like Rough Stone Rolling and many others. We have reputable scholars and historians who paint a different picture other than black and white.

Years ago I used to be black and white for the most part, but for the last several years I have opened up my mind and love reading about issues in the church that are not set in stone.

And yes people who do this reading and researching sometimes have questions. But in many instances it has only made my faith stronger in many areas.

Anyway I didn't mean to use infidelity as my example to get my message across, I just took the cue from you and ran with it--maybe it didn't make any sense--I tried.

My point is that we all have different journeys to reach our conclusions about truth and our faith.

If you think that Dehlin's comments are nothing but 'garbage' as you say--you have the right to believe as you will and so do I.

I'm not saying I agree with everything he said--but I do think he made some good observations.

It's all in the eyes of the beholder.

[Elphaba]

How? I said "Not at all", we should not boot them out of the Church. But the advise needs to be qualitatively different. That is what I am saying. Rather than a passive, hypocritical, untruthful, resentful and ultimately destructive attitude, those who struggle need to do it the Lord's way.

I'm sorry. I read your "Not at all," wrong.

I thought you meant those people who are able to stay due to John Dehlin's advice should not be driven from or booted out of the Church because their understanding is not pure enough.

Elphaba

[FlaviusHambonius]

I don't know if it would help, Flavius, but Richard Bushman addresses Joseph's polygamy in a way I had never thought of before. This is in his book, Rough Stone Rolling.

I'm not saying it will completely ease your mind, but it does give a certain perspective that may help.

Elphaba

Yes, I have read RRR and thought it was great and listened to some audio awhile back of Bushman and his thoughts on the book. It was a great read and a great listen.

I even bought the book for two of my sisters.

Maybe I need to go back and read some of the chapters that deal with polygamy.

Maybe if you don't mind sometime, you could give me a couple of your observations, I value your opinion greatly--if not, no worries--maybe I can pick up on what you did.

Thanks

[marshac]

So should those people who are able to stay due to John Dehlin's advice, be driven from or booted out of the Church because their understanding is not pure enough?

Or conversely, those that chose to join the church after listening to his podcasts. You've gotta understand that many people like myself knew a fair amount of what mormons believed, where the book of mormon came from, the 'real' reason for polygamy, etc long before some kid in a suit shows up on the front doorstep.... so for me to even begin to touch ANY of that with a 10' pole and think of it as "fact" would have been impossible without hearing alternate viewpoints (which a non-member would normally NEVER get). I would have said "have a nice day" and closed the door on the missionaries.... instead, because (in part) of his podcasts, I went over to the LDS institute at school, and they sent the missionaries over.... we invited them.... a month later, we were both baptized and are active (albeit lonely- the retention problem at work) members in our ward.

I'm sorry Maxel, but I think you and I have different definitions of poison. Clearly what John is prescribing isn't the medicine for you, but for someone who is having a major crisis of faith and would otherwise completely leave the church, it could be exactly what they need while they get through whatever issues they're battling. You've gotta admit- it's easier to get them to stay if they've never left.... it's harder to get them back once they're gone.

[Elphaba]

Sorry Elphaba, comments not directed at you per say, you did not write the reasons, just quoted them. I wanted to make sure others reading it were given the other side of it.

I am referring to your first post in response to my comment that Dehlin‘s first example played a huge part in my leaving the Church. Many of your comments were directed at me.

From Dehlin’s book:

You Never Received the Witness": In spite of your high level of devotion to the church, in your heart, you were never completely comfortable saying, "I know the church is true." At some point, you decided to try really, really hard to receive a more concrete witness as to the "truthfulness" of the church, only to continually emerge spiritually empty-handed. Moroni's promise simply didn't come true for you, even though you really did try. (emphasis mine)

Millions of people fall into this category, and you do not have the ability to comprehend what they, or I, did, trying to receive this witness. You think you do, as evidenced by your post, but you do not.

Rather, your post was replete with examples of what I, and others like me, had done wrong, from incorrectly asking for a sign, to not having faith, or repentance, or not loving God with all my heart. But you have no idea whether we did these things or not.

I'm glad you don't dismis it.

Yet you dismiss my experience.

I don’t dismiss yours, and every other believing LDS, because I don’t understand it. I could spend my time trying to convince you why you were wrong based on my own experience, but that would be absurd. I could say you didn’t get the confirmation you think you did, that you got it because you wanted it, that it happened because you were desperate, that you confused a witness and a good feeling, etc., etc., etc. But I would never do that because, while I think those things are possible, I really have no idea.

For all I know, you’re right and I’m wrong. Or perhaps all of our personal beliefs, based on our experiences, contain some ultimate truth. Perhaps my not believing in a god is true, in my universe, and your belief in the Christian God is true, only in your universe. Perhaps Loki is the only real God and he’s always messing with our heads. Perhaps the Scientologists are right that we are the descendents of some ancient people. Or perhaps we’re just an ant farm to some sentient being bigger than we can see, like a fish in the ocean that cannot comprehend the edges to what sustains it.

it was only info that I posted..

Some of it was, and much of it was not. Some of it was directed at me personally, and that is not informational only, especially this gem:

So, you have not been shown anything, and you have a choice - to believe or not to. Given the choice, what do you choose?

The presumptuous of this floors me. All I can think is you really, sincerely, do not see it.

A word of advice: If you’re really interested in a person’s experiences, ask that person. Otherwise, you really have no interest in truly comprehending that person’s worldview; rather, you’re only interested in persuading that person she is wrong.

This is off-putting, and you will lose that person’s trust. It’s not necessarily because the person is not open to your information. It’s because you've demonstrated you are not open to hers.

Elphaba

Edited June 15, 2009 by Elphaba

[prisonchaplain]

One part of the article I didn't get. Reason to stay: The hymns rock!. Is that some kind of inside LDS humor??? :-)

[marshac]

One part of the article I didn't get. Reason to stay: The hymns rock!. Is that some kind of inside LDS humor??? :-)

I still don't get it PC. The first time I ever went to a LDS church, they sang "battle hymn of the republic"... one of the missionaries was russian, and I was kinda wondering if the song was also in the russian LDS hymn book.

I miss the guitar, drums, etc.... i'm sure you know what i'm talkin about :)

[Carl62]

I still don't get it PC. The first time I ever went to a LDS church, they sang "battle hymn of the republic"... one of the missionaries was russian, and I was kinda wondering if the song was also in the russian LDS hymn book.

I miss the guitar, drums, etc.... i'm sure you know what i'm talkin about :)

Trust me, you and PC aren't the only ones who wished there were days when the sacrament meeting was "spiced-up" just a little bit. LOL

[marshac]

Trust me, you and PC aren't the only ones who wished there were days when the sacrament meeting was "spiced-up" just a little bit. LOL

You mean like sourdough instead of white bread?

[Dravin]

You mean like sourdough instead of white bread?

How 'bout just singing the songs at the speed their supposed to? I grew up in the Church and thus find things like drums and guitars distracting for hymns but even I sometimes feel like trying to club myself unconscious with the back of the pew in front of me when they sing something at what feels quarter speed.

Of course I've always preferred the faster stronger (?) songs like, High on a Mountain Top, Praise to the Man, Spirit of God, How Firm a Foundation.

[Mahone]

If you get REALLY bored, you could always try the old young mens trick of appending "in the bathtub" to each song title. For instance "abide with me... in the bathtub". You get some pretty amusing results. I was on the young mens presidency when I found out about this one... probably found it more amusing than the young men did. I need to grow up...

Edited June 15, 2009 by Mahone

[Seanette]

Do men EVER really grow up? (gd&r)

[Mahone]

Do men EVER really grow up? (gd&r)

I think they pretend to I'll let you know if I experience this mythical thing called growing up personally.

[Seanette]

I think they pretend to I'll let you know if I experience this mythical thing called growing up personally.

Please do. Let's see if you manage that feat before my husband does.

[kpatrey]

I'll let ya know on the other side

Seriously though- it's interesting that you talk about the retention rate... from statistics i've heard, it's generally pretty low for your typical convert (which supposedly tends to skew church statistics about the quantity of members, etc). I always tease the missionaries when I see them, so one day I mentioned that I wasn't gonna go to church the following sunday because "it takes too much time".... they were like "oh no! that's even worse than if you never joined!"... seriously, they should know me better by now, but I digress.... I know why they would make that statement, but it got me thinking- since we know that the retention rate of new converts is somewhat low, and if we truly believe that coming to the church and then leaving it is worse than never having joined at all, then why all the missionary work? Doesn't it stand to reason that more harm than good is being accomplished? I don't really believe this mind you, but there is a certain logic to it.

I can understand the lack of retention of new converts, especially since I am one. BUT...I can't imagine not having the church and the gospel in my life. There are things I struggle with but I just pray that HF will hear my prayers and I will continue to know this is the "true church." And I think about the "if you leave knowing this is the true church you are worse off" frightens me a bit!

[Moksha]

Your wife = church history

Most of us growing up never knew much about controversial history within the church, it was always the candy-coated version in Sunday school up through seminary classes, in fact we didn't know it was the candy-coated version--we just thought that was the only version albeit it was only minimal information regarding church history.

Don't get me wrong I wouldn't expect a Sunday school teacher to bring up the Adam-God Theory or the exploits of Joseph Smiths Polygamy etc.

Those were the years to be taught about The Father--The Saviour--The Plan of Salvation.

Excellent reasoning. I think this captures the spirit of what Dehlin was saying rather than the analogy of infidelity. The infidelity analogy served to distort the actual message.

The Church has come along way in getting out controversial information about it's history. We have books like Rough Stone Rolling and many others. We have reputable scholars and historians who paint a different picture other than black and white.

Another excellent point. Think of how Fawn Brody and Juanita Brooks were accused of being apostate liars, when in actuality they were the truth tellers and now we have excellent books by Richard Bushman and Richard Turley corroborating what they originally said and with Church sanction to do so. Onward and upward, the truth is marching on!

John Dehlin enters into this as someone who provided a way to deal with member confusion and consternation do to this new sanctioned information.

:)

[Moksha]

One part of the article I didn't get. Reason to stay: The hymns rock!. Is that some kind of inside LDS humor??? :-)

Yes, I think that was humor. The songs are all good, but some with toe tapping ability would be appreciated - and I know this because many have expressed a similar sentiment on other threads. We have had a sing duet accompanied by a guitar before in Sacrament Meeting and it was wonderful. The problem was such marvelousness was a real rarity.

Recently on another forum, one of the posters bemoaned that his Bishop would not allow him to sing either Morning has Broken or Come, Thou Fount of Every Blessing. Perhaps the Bishop did not realize that the Mormon Tabernacle Choir has excellent renditions of these songs.

So perhaps that humor was a bit inside.

:)

[Islander]

I guess, pretending, abandonment, apathy, aloofness, coldness, distance and ultimately lying about one's testimony, devotion and faithfulness is not a sin in the eyes of some. I guess it does not register that sin in the eyes of God does not have a scale.

[marshac]

I guess, pretending, abandonment, apathy, aloofness, coldness, distance and ultimately lying about one's testimony, devotion and faithfulness is not a sin in the eyes of some. I guess it does not register that sin in the eyes of God does not have a scale.

Who is advocating any of those things? Please build a better strawman next time.

A person who is having a crisis could honestly state that "I have a testimony that the church is good" without lying. Such a statement would quite possibly be misconstrued by many of those that heard it as "the church is true", but that's hardly the failt of the person giving their testimony is it? As for apathy and aloofness- I think that those are par for the course when your worldview comes crashing down around you, no?

I wonder- have you ever been in the situation where your fundimental beliefs have been shaken to the core? If you have, then perhaps you could do what John did and help others through their concerns/doubts, but in a way that you feel is more... appropriate. If however you have not, then it might be wise to keep those rocks inside your own glass house for the time being.

[Maxel]

And on a related note--how is it we are supposed to rely on your "translations" of his paragraphs when you yourself said you "barely skimmed" his article?

1) I know this man's background, and spent hours listening to his "Mormon Stories Podcast". Interesting note- his podcast was an example where the Lord showed me someone who leads the faithful down to apostasy by replacing a living testimony with a hollow one. I know his modus operandi, and the tone and thrust of the article is very simple to grasp.

2) At least one of the quotations was an entire section of the article under one heading (I forget which one(s))- therefore, there was no context that I missed.

3) You are free to go to the source yourself and retranslate- I even copy/pasted the "translated" paragraphs so people could judge for themselves whether I was right or wrong. Perhaps you would like to show specific areas where I made a mistake and correct me?

No doubt your words play well to a certain group on the board. But for the rest of them, your approach is almost certainly counter-productive.

I had little time to say what I had to say. I did it in the way that would most easily get attention. Most of the people on this board are trying to learn more about the Church in one way or another- the group that you belong to (ex-member seeking to denigrate the Church) is virtually non-existent (most ex-members here aren't trying to attack the Church or its doctrine). John Dehlin is a seller of a false doctrine and dead faithfulness packaged as "buffet Mormonism".

So should those people who are able to stay due to John Dehlin's advice, be driven from or booted out of the Church because their understanding is not pure enough?

No- 3 Nephi 18 deals with this topic.

Anyone "able to stay active in the Church" because of John Dehlin's advice- those who become "buffet Mormons", lose their testimonies and wander down the forbidden paths in Lehi's vision- are dealt with by the Lord, if they allow Dehlin's advice to grow in their hearts and overcome their testimonies.

Anyone dealing with a crisis of faith needs to turn to the Lord, and give Him equal time. All who do this with pure intent will be comforted and strengthened, and led to the information that will solve their inner conflict. The methods and doctrine espoused by Dehlin will only lead a soul to destruction, if followed after one has gained a testimony. While those without testimonies may be genuinely helped for a time by his advice, continuing to turn to him for answers will lead to spiritual death.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Maxel

[Islander]

Who is advocating any of those things? Please build a better strawman next time.

A person who is having a crisis could honestly state that "I have a testimony that the church is good" without lying. Such a statement would quite possibly be misconstrued by many of those that heard it as "the church is true", but that's hardly the failt of the person giving their testimony is it? As for apathy and aloofness- I think that those are par for the course when your worldview comes crashing down around you, no?.

Saying things like: "the Church is good" is not a testimony.

Unless you are 5, if you have studied the scriptures in due course, you should know that ALL prophets make mistakes, that ALL prophets err as men, that now and again they have acted guided by fear, bias, anger, zeal or frustration and the Lord chastised them and made the error known unto us so that we may learn from their mistakes. What is to be disappointed about? All history is "difficult" and and life is like the sea --quiet and pleasant now, a raging storm the next...The doctrine is perfect but men are not.

We wage a spiritual warfare with an enemy that is as real as day light, cunning and ancient as the earth itself, that knows every step we have ever taken, aware of our anxiety, our fears, our desires and insecurities, our very thoughts. The battlefield is our mind and he does not rest, no breaks, no respite or time out. Our ONLY defense is to fill our mind and soul with the word of the Lord. To constantly act, think and do as Lord would have us do. To trust in HIM for all that we do and need and to make HIM the center of our lives. Only SIN can cut our connection with God. Only SIN can make our lives turbulent, unstable, unclean and spiritually uninhabitable that the Holy Ghost may withdrawn and our heart becomes seared and unable to feel the lifeline of the Spirit. We can try and justify, rationalize, explain or intellectualize it but there is no other reason for US to feel disconnected, distant and voided, for GOD does not move. WE, for whatever reasons, find ourselves away from HIM. It is hard, bitter medicine but it is the truth.

"There are also rules of spiritual health, simple rules that cannot be ignored, for if they are we will reap sorrow by and by.

All of us experience some temporary physical sickness. All of us now and again may be spiritually ill as well. Too many of us, however, are chronically spiritually sick.

We don’t need to stay that way. We can learn to avoid spiritual infections and maintain good spiritual health. Even though we have a serious physical ailment, we can be spiritually healthy.

If you suffer from worry, from grief or shame, from jealousy, disappointment, or envy, I have something to tell you.

Somewhere near your home there is a vacant corner lot. Although adjoining yards may be well tended, a vacant corner lot somehow is always full of weeds.

There is a footpath across it, a bicycle trail, and ordinarily it is a collecting place for junk. First someone threw a few lawn clippings there. They would not hurt anything. Someone added a few sticks and limbs from a nearby yard. Then came a few papers and a plastic bag, and finally some tin cans and old bottles were included.

And there it was—a junkyard.

The neighbors did not intend it to be that. But little contributions from here and there made it so.

This corner lot is like, so very much like, the minds of many of us. We leave our minds vacant and empty and open to trespass by anyone. Whatever is dumped there we keep.

We would not consciously permit anyone to dump junk into our minds, not old cans and bottles. But after lawn clippings and papers, the other things just don’t seem all that much worse.

Our minds can become veritable junk heaps with dirty, cast-off ideas that accumulate there little by little." New Era » 1979 » August by Elder Boyd K. Packer

My point was, for those who missed it, he (Delhi) is "no-body," an apostate offering snake oil for serious spiritual illness. If ANYONE has a spiritual crisis they NEED to follow the counsel of the prophets, bury themselves in the scriptures and seek the LORD with every ounce of energy in their body and every inch of their soul. When our spiritual life and our very salvation is in danger we should go to the Master Healer not the witch doctor.

[Kawazu]

My point was, for those who missed it, he (Delhi) is "no-body," an apostate offering snake oil for serious spiritual illness. If ANYONE has a spiritual crisis they NEED to follow the counsel of the prophets, bury themselves in the scriptures and seek the LORD with every ounce of energy in their body and every inch of their soul. When our spiritual life and our very salvation is in danger we should go to the Master Healer not the witch doctor.

What if a person has done these things and feels nothing?

[kpatrey]

Islander -

Your post was amazing! I have no idea who this Delhi person is and by the looks of it I probably shouldn't research him either. What wonderful council given in your statement. Beautifully written!

Kim

[Islander]

What if a person has done these things and feels nothing?

It can certainly happen. I would suggest that a more in depth assessment of the situation is required. When we struggle with a issue, it is a clear sign that one: we do not clearly understand the issue before us, and two: we have not developed the tools/skills required to overcome it. Sometimes we have to seek the opinion of "specialists" (Bishops, mental health pros and others) and treat the condition as a serious illness; go wherever, talk to everyone, do and spend whatever it takes to get better. Remember, at the end is our resolve, our faith and hope that falters, not the hand of the Lord.

I hope it helps.

[Kawazu]

Islander -

Your post was amazing! I have no idea who this Delhi person is and by the looks of it I probably shouldn't research him either. What wonderful council given in your statement. Beautifully written!

Kim

His, Mormon Stories podcast on Blacks and the LDS Priesthood was great; I recommend it:

Blacks and the LDS Priesthood