bytor2112 Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 A favorite quote from Elder McConkie (I think he is paraphrasing Joseph Smith):Priesthood is power like none other on earth or in heaven. It is the very power of God himself, the power by which the worlds were made, the power by which all things are regulated, upheld, and preserved.It is the power of faith, the faith by which the Father creates and governs. God is God because he is the embodiment of all faith and all power and all priesthood. The life he lives is named eternal life.And the extent to which we become like him is the extent to which we gain his faith, acquire his power, and exercise his priesthood. And when we have become like him in the full and true sense, then we also shall have eternal life.Faith and priesthood go hand in hand. Faith is power and power is priesthood. After we gain faith, we receive the priesthood. Then, through the priesthood, we grow in faith until, having all power, we become like our Lord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountthepavement Posted June 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 I am getting from you that the concept of faith is utterly tied to the concept of power: It is taking up god's power, righteous power? Now, I don't understand this statement; it seems overly poetic and esoteric; can you explain it? "God is God because he is the embodiment of all faith" What does god have faith in? Or is "faith in" the wrong way to think about it? Is faith a state of mind with no object? If not, what is god's object? The good? What is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martybess Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Okay, to put it succinctly, is faith acting out of less than perfect knowledge (together with the belief that there is at least one with perfect knowledge who has assured you that this is the best course of action etc.)? word?I think you have hit it on the head! "Faith is acting out of less than perfect knowledge" Perfect! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martybess Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) I think you have hit it on the head! "Faith is acting out of less than perfect knowledge" Perfect!Hmmmmm, after reading Elder McConkie definition of faith my above statement isn't complete. "Priesthood is power like none other on earth or in heaven. It is the very power of God himself, the power by which the worlds were made, the power by which all things are regulated, upheld, and preserved.It is the power of faith, the faith by which the Father creates and governs. God is God because he is the embodiment of all faith and all power and all priesthood. The life he lives is named eternal life.And the extent to which we become like him is the extent to which we gain his faith, acquire his power, and exercise his priesthood. And when we have become like him in the full and true sense, then we also shall have eternal life.Faith and priesthood go hand in hand. Faith is power and power is priesthood. After we gain faith, we receive the priesthood. Then, through the priesthood, we grow in faith until, having all power, we become like our Lord."He is all knowing why does he need faith?? Edited June 16, 2009 by martybess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Exactly....pure knowledge is the next level after faith is applied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
applepansy Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 · Hidden Hidden I think you have hit it on the head! "Faith is acting out of less than perfect knowledge" Perfect!I thought that had already been said...in different words. Link to comment
mountthepavement Posted June 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Hmmmmm, after reading Elder McConkie definition of faith my above statement isn't complete. He is all knowing why does he need faith??(context: It is the power of faith, the faith by which the Father creates and governs. )That's a great question! Can anyone clarify? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountthepavement Posted June 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Exactly....pure knowledge is the next level after faith is applied.Can we achieve pure knowledge in this life? Also, what is knowledge? Can we define it rigorously so that an arbitrary listener would get what we are talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 From Joseph Smith:What is faith? It is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1); that is, it is the assurance we have of the existence of unseen things. And being the assurance which we have of the existence of unseen things, must be the principle of action in all intelligent beings. Hebrews 11:3: "Through faith we understand the worlds were framed by the word of God." How do you prove that faith is the principle of action in all intelligent beings? First, by duly considering the operations of my own mind; and, secondly, by the direct declaration of Scripture. Hebrews 11:7: "By faith Noah, being warned of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house, by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." Hebrews 11:8: "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go into a place which he should afterwards receive for an inheritance, obeyed, and he went out not knowing whither he went." Hebrews 11:9: "By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise." Hebrews 11:27: By faith Moses "forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible." Is not faith the principle of action in spiritual things as well as in temporal? It is.How do you prove it? Hebrews 11:6: "Without faith it is impossible to please God." Mark 16:16: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." Romans 4:16: "therefore it is of faith that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all." Is faith anything else beside the principle of action? It is.What is it? It is the principle of power also. How do you prove it? First, it is the principle of power in the deity as well as in man. Hebrews 11:3: "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." Lecture 1: 14, 15, 16. Secondly, it is the principle of power in man also. Book of Mormon, page 278. Alma and Amulek are delivered from prison. Ibid. page 443. Nephi and Lehi, with the Lamanites, are immersed with the Spirit. ibid. page 599. The mountain Zerin, by the faith of the brother of Jared, is removed. Joshua 10:12: "Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said, in the sight of Israel, 'Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon, and thou moon in the valley of Ajalon.'" Joshua 10:13: "And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves of their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day." Matthew 17:19: "Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, "Why could not we cast him out?'" Matthew 17:20: "And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief; for verily I say unto you, if ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, 'Remove hence to yonder place,' and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." Hebrews 11:32 and the following verses: "And what shall I say more? for the time would fail me to tell of Gideon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthah, of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets, who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword; out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to fight the armies of the aliens, women received their dead raised to life again, and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection." How would you define faith in its most unlimited sense? It is the first great governing principle which has power, dominion, and authority over all things. How do you convey to the understanding more clearly that faith is the first great governing principle which has power, dominion, and authority over all things? By it they exist, by it they are upheld, by it they are changed, or by it they remain, agreeable to the will of God; and without it there is no power, and without power there could be no creation nor existence! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 It's important to realize that faith isn't something not seen.Faith is the evidence of things hoped for, the substance of things not seen.Faith is the evidence...Faith is the substance...So, if there is something you hope for, it is not seen or not realized yet... or you wouldn't hope for it.What you do to bring about the thing you hope for is your faith.If you do nothing to bring it about then it is not faith.This is why the Gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of doing, or a gospel of works. As we work He blesses our efforts, and increases the results of our efforts... or He increases our ability to work or our faith. We are enabled, or given power, to reach our goal.If we do nothing then there is nothing for Him to expand or increase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj4u Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 For most part yes. The key point, and where faith comes in, is we don't know how we are going to get paid. We just know its for our better good to follow God and his Commandments. We hope that means a reward in the next life. But each choice brings its own test of our faith. I like how it was said we show our Love to God. Thats pretty much it. Do we really love this being that we haven't seen. Do we trust Him 100%!My understanding of the Bible is this: Faith is the substance of things hoped for and evidence of things not seen.Without faith we cannot please God. Those that come to God must believe He is and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. We overcome the wicked one by our faith. Our faith is what saves us through God's grace. Trusting in anything other than this will cause us to fall from God's grace and be judged by our works only that is Satan's diabolical plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl62 Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Our faith is what saves us through God's grace. Trusting in anything other than this will cause us to fall from God's grace and be judged by our works only that is Satan's diabolical plan.We our saved by our faith in Him AND our obedience to His commandments. The two go hand in hand and one is not complete without the other. (Matthew 19:16-21, James 2:14-17) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj4u Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) We our saved by our faith in Him AND our obedience to His commandments. The two go hand in hand and one is not complete without the other. (Matthew 19:16-21, James 2:14-17)I didn't say obedience is not important. I am saying trusting your works of obedience to supplement God's (Jesus') death for your sins and shed blood is to fall from God's grace completely, and that where the problem lies. You cannot ignore Paul, and you're not showing a Biblical understanding of James as related to being saved by God 's grace through our faith that works by love!!!! I am speaking truth here that must be understood or salvation is not possible! Thus saith the Lord!!! Edited June 17, 2009 by aj4u Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj4u Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) Change of subject: My avatar is my oil painting I did. I am an artist. Do you like it? oil on canvas 24 X 36 Edited June 17, 2009 by aj4u Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kawazu Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) Change of subject: My avatar is my oil painting I did. I am an artist. Do you like it?oil on canvas 24 X 36Yes. In any community, it may benefit newcomers to participate in a noncontroversial way, (at least for a little while). Sequentially, this allows preestablished members to see the recently arrived person more like a potential friend and less as a source of controversy.A friend of mine is an artist, as well. Thus far, he paints with acrylics.Cheers,Kawazu Edited June 17, 2009 by Kawazu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl62 Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 I didn't say obedience is not important. I am saying trusting your works of obedience to supplement God's (Jesus') death for your sins and shed blood is to fall from God's grace completely, and that where the problem lies. You cannot ignore Paul, and you're not showing a Biblical understanding of James as related to being saved by God 's grace through our faith that works by love!!!! I am speaking truth here that must be understood or salvation is not possible! Thus saith the Lord!!!I clearly understand after one is born again that good works will follow as a result of ones sincere faith in Him, but I hope that you're not telling me that works are optional and that you can still get to heaven without having to do anything on your part. If so, then that belief EMPHATICALLY goes against what Jesus said to the young rich man in Matthew 19. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl62 Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Change of subject: My avatar is my oil painting I did. I am an artist. Do you like it?oil on canvas 24 X 36Yes, nice avatar AJ.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elgama Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 I didn't say obedience is not important. I am saying trusting your works of obedience to supplement God's (Jesus') death for your sins and shed blood is to fall from God's grace completely, and that where the problem lies. You cannot ignore Paul, and you're not showing a Biblical understanding of James as related to being saved by God 's grace through our faith that works by love!!!! I am speaking truth here that must be understood or salvation is not possible! Thus saith the Lord!!!A Latter Day Saint understanding would be your works come out of your Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ if you haven't lost a desire to do evil and strive to do your best to follow the Saviour you have no Faith. And do we actually have to have a Biblical Understanding if we are Latter Day Saints? Its like telling a Jew they don't have a Biblical Understanding of the New Testament.Also you are missing the distinction between saved and exalted etc everyone can be saved by the Grace but your progression depends on your works and understanding.-Charley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl62 Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Why is it when trying to explain the gospel to AJ, it's always like debating 'apples and oranges, apples and oranges, apples and....' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elgama Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Why is it when trying to explain the gospel to AJ, it's always like debating 'apples and oranges, apples and oranges, apples and....'because as Latter Day Saints we have a greater light and have made our way through the tunnel, a standard Christian runs round in circles in the dark to find their way out of that same tunnel. You can't expect him to understand he has received less light-Charley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kawazu Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Denominations interpret basic assumptions differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl62 Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Good points Elgama and Kawazu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Denominations interpret basic assumptions differently.How true.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martybess Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Elder McConkiePriesthood is power like none other on earth or in heaven. It is the very power of God himself, the power by which the worlds were made, the power by which all things are regulated, upheld, and preserved.It is the power of faith, the faith by which the Father creates and governs. God is God because he is the embodiment of all faith and all power and all priesthood. The life he lives is named eternal life.And the extent to which we become like him is the extent to which we gain his faith, acquire his power, and exercise his priesthood. And when we have become like him in the full and true sense, then we also shall have eternal life.Faith and priesthood go hand in hand. Faith is power and power is priesthood. After we gain faith, we receive the priesthood. Then, through the priesthood, we grow in faith until, having all power, we become like our Lord.Why would God need Faith? His all knowing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) Thanks for bringing this up again. Marty, I wish not to comment on Elder McConkie excerpt without seeing the rest of the article or hearing it. I have done this in the past and found, through audible means, it was not the same as reading it and corrected my statement. Now, I am not endorsing this statement either. You are correct though, this is not true statement. Heavenly Father does not create or governs by faith. Using Elder McConkie own words, this is one of those hearsay. GOD has the knowledge to work out the creation for this kingdom [state]. There is no additional knowledge to be gained but experiences and glory. Power is not faith but honor is power. This honor only comes from the Intelligences, which honors HIM. The authority to exercise this power is the Holy Priesthood. There is no faith needed to exercise power or the priesthood. As living Intelligences, whether be it on a lower level kingdom to the highest kingdom is eternal. He does not exercise faith in these matters. However, we do until we reached that perfect state of faith or pure knowledge. It is then; we need no longer to look at the GOD with faith or through 'blinded natural eyes' of man. Edited June 17, 2009 by Hemidakota Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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