Faith questions

[bytor2112]

Is faith like "the force"? PS: is that silver surfer?

Good analogy....and yes...Silver Surfer

[Elgama]

Strikes me as the same type of argument aj brings.

sorry forget I am dealing with mostly Americans was meant partly in jest. Tongue in cheek but at same time pointing out to aj that we feel same way about his arguements and him as he does about us.

-Charley

[Elgama]

Agree or disagree:

Faith is a state or action experienced or committed by subjectivities that has no object (you might say the subjectivity has no subject, in the sense of citizen of a dominion); it can further be characterized by an "existential" paradox: that it does not exist as a possible object of a subjectivity itself (follows from its being a state of subjectivity). It has that type of existence, I mean. To clarify this: faith is the state synonymous with the concept "objectless" in the human mind (hence the paradox).

I think its more simple - Faith is what happens as a result of having a relationship with God

-Charley

[mountthepavement]

I think its more simple - Faith is what happens as a result of having a relationship with God

-Charley

It's not simple when I don't know what you mean. And just because something is difficult to explain doesn't mean it's not simple in itself.

Might one have a relationship with god characterized by rebellion? That is, what you have said is not entirely clear.

Are you trying to set up a paradox as well, as in, "we have a relationship with god through faith, and faith is the result of that relationship"? If not, then why is the former statement here any less valid than yours.

Just because my suggestion was wordy doesn't mean it's profound.

[mountthepavement]

sorry forget I am dealing with mostly Americans was meant partly in jest. Tongue in cheek but at same time pointing out to aj that we feel same way about his arguements and him as he does about us.

-Charley

What does being American or not have to do with it? I am intrigued.

[Misshalfway]

It's not simple when I don't know what you mean. And just because something is difficult to explain doesn't mean it's not simple in itself.

Might one have a relationship with god characterized by rebellion? That is, what you have said is not entirely clear.

Are you trying to set up a paradox as well, as in, "we have a relationship with god through faith, and faith is the result of that relationship"? If not, then why is the former statement here any less valid than yours.

Just because my suggestion was wordy doesn't mean it's profound.

You forget that having a proper relationship with God is a two way street. God requires certain things of us before we have a relationship with him.

Rebellion is the antithesis to what I am describing. If you want an accurate example of what I mean, try looking at Satan. He was a "Son of the Morning" but he rebelled and became an enemy to God. He definitely has a relationship with the Father of us all, but I don't know if I would categorize it as desirable.

[mountthepavement]

You forget that having a proper relationship with God is a two way street. God requires certain things of us before we have a relationship with him.

Rebellion is the antithesis to what I am describing. If you want an accurate example of what I mean, try looking at Satan. He was a "Son of the Morning" but he rebelled and became an enemy to God. He definitely has a relationship with the Father of us all, but I don't know if I would categorize it as desirable.

Welcome to the thread!

[Justice]

Okay, I think I get it:

Faith is intended to contrast with mere belie,f in that belief can be something one does entirely internally, which seems to imply tentatively, while faith is active and externally demonstrates belief, hence the emphasis on works.

That is totally amazing!

In all my years of discussing faith with others, especially non-members, I have NEVER had anyone pick up on what I was trying to say so quickly; so easily!

I have come to the conclusion that I just can't express myself clearly, but you have given me hope that i can.

However, couldn't we have correct works with no righteousness but rather calculation behind them? Further, might it be that the old faith vs. works debate is a chicken-or-egg problem?

Yes, one can work good works for many other reason, like the Scribes and Pharisees.

Chicken = faith and egg = works?

It is true that you cannot have faith without works, because if you do nothing you cannot demonstrate faith. But, you can have works without faith. This is what most Christian churches seem to fear in the works debate. In my way of thinking, it is not the works that should be feared, because in the equation they are required. It is whether or not the works are founded in Jesus Christ that should be the issue.

If you are really serious about discussing works, and how they are misunderstood by most churches, start up a thread and I'll show you how I believe the misunderstanding started.

[Seanette]

I just encountered a great explanation by James Talmage:

"Knowledge is to wisdom what belief is to faith, one an abstract principle, the other a living application." (from "Articles of Faith", ch. 5)

[JohnnyRudick]

Okay, to put it succinctly, is faith acting out of less than perfect knowledge (together with the belief that there is at least one with perfect knowledge who has assured you that this is the best course of action etc.)?

Then, what type of knowledge do you mean? What precisely do you mean by this word?

There is an old song I use to like that I listened to a long time ago.

It told of a desert and a traveler in that desert about to the end of his strength when he comes to an old well.

There is a jar sealed with water inside with a note attached which read something to the effect that you could

drink what little water there is in the jar and that would be it.

It for you and it for anyone else who would come after.

But if you would just pour that little bit of water down the well and pump like crazy, out would come enough

water not only to quench your thirst but to even clean up and cool off with.

And please leave a little bit of water in the jar for the next person coming behind you

and attach the note for their instruction.

Bro. Rudick

Edited June 18, 2009 by JohnnyRudick

[JohnnyRudick]

Okay, I think I get it:

Faith is intended to contrast with mere belie,f in that belief can be something one does entirely internally, which seems to imply tentatively, while faith is active and externally demonstrates belief, hence the emphasis on works.

However, couldn't we have correct works with no righteousness but rather calculation behind them? Further, might it be that the old faith vs. works debate is a chicken-or-egg problem?

I will place this quote again.

Hope I am not being irritating:rolleyes:

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the

gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received,

and wherein ye stand;

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in

memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Bro. Rudick

[mountthepavement]

That is totally amazing!

In all my years of discussing faith with others, especially non-members, I have NEVER had anyone pick up on what I was trying to say so quickly; so easily!

I have come to the conclusion that I just can't express myself clearly, but you have given me hope that i can.

Yes, one can work good works for many other reason, like the Scribes and Pharisees.

Chicken = faith and egg = works?

It is true that you cannot have faith without works, because if you do nothing you cannot demonstrate faith. But, you can have works without faith. This is what most Christian churches seem to fear in the works debate. In my way of thinking, it is not the works that should be feared, because in the equation they are required. It is whether or not the works are founded in Jesus Christ that should be the issue.

If you are really serious about discussing works, and how they are misunderstood by most churches, start up a thread and I'll show you how I believe the misunderstanding started.

That's a really gratifying response! Glad to give you hope that you can communicate! I don't have time now, but I'll have to follow up more later.

[mountthepavement]

I will place this quote again.

Hope I am not being irritating:rolleyes:

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the

gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received,

and wherein ye stand;

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in

memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Bro. Rudick

Why can't one have faith and indeed act entirely in vain? I understand what you are expressing about belief, but why doesn't this apply to faith?

Is it because, when acting, as in the contingent oasis story above, we always risk something? Is risk the important element that justifies belief, hope, faith, etc.?

[Elgama]

It's not simple when I don't know what you mean. And just because something is difficult to explain doesn't mean it's not simple in itself.

Might one have a relationship with god characterized by rebellion? That is, what you have said is not entirely clear.

Are you trying to set up a paradox as well, as in, "we have a relationship with god through faith, and faith is the result of that relationship"? If not, then why is the former statement here any less valid than yours.

Just because my suggestion was wordy doesn't mean it's profound.

nope like I say faith is complicated and doesn't need anything complicated to explain it. Its your relationship with God - what kind of relationship it is will be shown by the fruits. Faith -= works if your relationship is one of love it'll be goodworks

-Charley

[Hemidakota]

Isn't this the same question as to the other thread talking about FAITH & WORKS?

Some analogies emphasize that both faith and works are necessary. In the bicycle-built-for-two metaphor, the relationship between faith and works is likened to two riders on a tandem bicycle. When both riders pedal together, the bicycle (pleases GOD) moves ahead more rapidly. Each rider must work, or the other must bear a heavy and perhaps exhausting burden; but only one (that is faith) can steer and determine where the bicycle will go, although the other (works) can do some backseat driving.

In another metaphor, these two necessary elements are brought together as in a marriage, with "all the tension, adjustments, frustration, joys, and ecstasy one finds in a marriage between man and woman."

Similarly, the Apostle Paul used the human body as a strong metaphor to show the need for many parts in an organic whole. It would be unseemly for "the head [to say] to the feet, I have no need of you"; they are "many members, yet but one body" (1 Corinthians 12:20-21). As B. H. Roberts has cautioned, let us not have "the heart breathing defiance to the intellect." And one might equally add, let us also not have the intellect pounding submission to the heart.

[Justice]

I like the yoke analogy.

[JohnnyRudick]

Why can't one have faith and indeed act entirely in vain? I understand what you are expressing about belief, but why doesn't this apply to faith?

Is it because, when acting, as in the contingent oasis story above, we always risk something? Is risk the important element that justifies belief, hope, faith, etc.?

I believe that question is being answered by others on this thread much better then I ever could.

Just trying to enter into this discussion the perspective you have just pointed out again, much better then I ever could:)

Thanks;)

Bro. Rudick

Edited June 18, 2009 by JohnnyRudick
Spelling:-(

[mountthepavement]

nope like I say faith is complicated and doesn't need anything complicated to explain it. Its your relationship with God - what kind of relationship it is will be shown by the fruits. Faith -= works if your relationship is one of love it'll be goodworks

-Charley

I see your point about faith being inextricably tied to works, but to equate them seems to cheapen language. Why are they distinct words?

Also, it doesn't seem to me to be playing fair to say at one moment that faith is more simple and then turn around and say it is complicated.

However, perhaps you are yourself referring to a particular paradox concerning faith. You can explain it if you want.

[mountthepavement]

Isn't this the same question as to the other thread talking about FAITH & WORKS?

Some analogies emphasize that both faith and works are necessary. In the bicycle-built-for-two metaphor, the relationship between faith and works is likened to two riders on a tandem bicycle. When both riders pedal together, the bicycle (pleases GOD) moves ahead more rapidly. Each rider must work, or the other must bear a heavy and perhaps exhausting burden; but only one (that is faith) can steer and determine where the bicycle will go, although the other (works) can do some backseat driving.

In another metaphor, these two necessary elements are brought together as in a marriage, with "all the tension, adjustments, frustration, joys, and ecstasy one finds in a marriage between man and woman."

Similarly, the Apostle Paul used the human body as a strong metaphor to show the need for many parts in an organic whole. It would be unseemly for "the head [to say] to the feet, I have no need of you"; they are "many members, yet but one body" (1 Corinthians 12:20-21). As B. H. Roberts has cautioned, let us not have "the heart breathing defiance to the intellect." And one might equally add, let us also not have the intellect pounding submission to the heart.

Thanks for the response.

[mountthepavement]

I believe that question is being answered by others on this thread much better then I ever could.

Just trying to enter into this discussion the perspective you have just pointed out again, much better then I ever could:)

Thanks;)

Bro. Rudick

I don't quite get what you are saying, but thanks for the response anyway.

[JohnnyRudick]

I don't quite get what you are saying, but thanks for the response anyway.

In my awkward way I mean

That Faith is not something that you can produce in yourself.

No more then you can produce the Light of Christ that may guide you to seek faith.

But "Faith" is a gift from God.

Once received through the power of the Holy Ghost, you must then exercise that faith with works.

But as I said.

There are others here that put it better.

Bro. Rudick

[mountthepavement]

In my awkward way I mean

That Faith is not something that you can produce in yourself.

No more then you can produce the Light of Christ that may guide you to seek faith.

But "Faith" is a gift from God.

Once received through the power of the Holy Ghost, you must then exercise that faith with works.

But as I said.

There are others here that put it better.

Bro. Rudick

No, I like what you are saying here and how you said it, not that you need me as a judge. But that is my response.

[Kawazu]

Howdy,

Faith is living as though one's beliefs, (especially theological or philosophical), are actually true.

Regards,

Kawazu

[JohnnyRudick]

I don't quite get what you are saying, but thanks for the response anyway.

The reason why I say the above is because I am concerned about the teachings of

many on the radio and TV throughout these many years that "faith" is a thing that the

human soul produces on it own apart from God.

You can just have faith in your faith.

Faith in your faith can produce great things. (some say)

This is vain faith.

Real faith comes as a gift from God to the seeker after God from God.

You then exercise that faith in God.

All other things that we say we have faith in unless it is where God is in it, is merely confidence.

Bro. Rudick

Edited June 19, 2009 by JohnnyRudick