Salvation - a point of view

[Traveler]

I have discovered that most of the problems in dealing with religious differences are in defining basic terms. In the classic format of structured debate the first step is to agree upon the definition of critical terms. The term I believes needs definition is the term “works”. I will define works as anything (spiritual or physical) that is accomplished or done. Therefore when someone uses the phrase, “All you need to do is _______“ or, “If you will just _____”, then whatever goes in ether blank space, by definition is deemed a work.

In the classic debates over saved by grace or saved by works the answer becomes obvious. We are saved by G-d’s works of grace that are enabled for us by our works. If all we need to do is believe in Jesus Christ. Then we have defined a necessary work for us to do to be saved called, “believe in Jesus Christ”. Now we need to define what the works of “believing in Jesus Christ” are.

The next problem concerns the logic that is often used by man that references the things of G-d. My father, who had a great influence in my life, often talked about minimum producers and maximum producers. A minimum producer is someone that determines: what is the least possible contribution necessary to get the desired results. A maximum producer is someone that determines what is the most or best possible contribution they can do to guarantee without question the desired results – even if it is not expected. My father’s advice to me was always to be a maximum producer.

I very much believe and accept the LDS concept of works that define a belief in Jesus Christ. That is that you do the very maximum you can (all you can do) to enable that belief in Jesus Christ standard and regardless of what that is – Jesus, out of love and mercy will without any question save you.

Those of you that in essence have great desire to say to me – “Nanner, nanner, nanner; I did not have to believe or do hardly anything that you did and I am saved – nanner nanner nanner! Knock yourself out. But as for me and my house – we will believe and honor Jesus Christ with all our heart, might, mind and strength. We will be maximum producers and rejoice with Christ in all that believe in him – including all the minimum producers accepted by our L-rd and congratulate all that did overcome the world.

The Traveler

[Justice]

Yes, Traveler, that is the first step.

The next is to decide whether or not a man can be influenced by the spirit to work works, or if God must work through a man, meaning the man has no say in the work performed.

To me, the simple answer is found in the fact that some will not be saved. It must be that we have a choice. If you believe otherwise, then you must believe God chooses to create and then damn those beings, with no choice of their own, for eternity.

Therefore, I believe a man can choose to work good works and be a light to those around him. By listening to the spirit, and through the enabling power of the atonement of Jesus Christ, a man is capable of far greater works than if left to himself. Therefore, when the scriptures say we love God if we work His works, we can choose to do them just as surely as we can choose to do evil.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Justice

[applepansy]

Traveler,

Awesome! Thank you. You have given me the words that might get through my 24yo's thick skull.

applepansy

[prisonchaplain]

Yes and no. Definitions of words are important, but often context presents very different nuances. For example, the proverbs "Haste makes waste," and "He who hesitates is lost," are both true, though on the surface, they seem contradictory. Likewise, scripture says we are saved by faith, not be works, so no one can boast. Yet, faith comes by hearing...so is the root of our salvation hearing the gospel? And then, of course, James famous declaration, "Faith without works is dead." As we define our words, ideas and doctrines, we must leave room for context. Scripture does not contradict itself. But, often, our western habit of making rigid categories and demanding absolute true/false answers leads to confusion and conflict.

[Guest]

Everytime I encounter this saved by grace versus saved by works discussion, I always go back to the ordinances. Because, if grace is enough, then why are ordinances necessary? Well, Jesus got baptized - so it must be important. That, to me, is necessary work.

[Justice]

Perhaps then, PC, it would be important to understand each usage of words.

I agree with Traveler, that unless you agree on word definitions, discussions are fruitless.

In fact, the very first verse of the Bible is replete with words and phrases, that if not understood the same way, can lead to misunderstanding throughout the rest of the Bible.

[Traveler]

Yes and no. Definitions of words are important, but often context presents very different nuances. For example, the proverbs "Haste makes waste," and "He who hesitates is lost," are both true, though on the surface, they seem contradictory. Likewise, scripture says we are saved by faith, not be works, so no one can boast. Yet, faith comes by hearing...so is the root of our salvation hearing the gospel? And then, of course, James famous declaration, "Faith without works is dead." As we define our words, ideas and doctrines, we must leave room for context. Scripture does not contradict itself. But, often, our western habit of making rigid categories and demanding absolute true/false answers leads to confusion and conflict.

Thank you for your input. As soon as someone says all you have to do is believe in Jesus then there is something other than grace that impacts salvation and it is not grace only. The point is that it does not matter if someone believes a little or a lot. The point of the debate is that it is not by our effort to believe just that we do believe and then the power of G-d's grace is in effect. Therefore even though it is by grace not because of our belief that we are saved our belief is still an element. So no one can boast of their works or their belief - It is as wrong to say "I believe therefore I am saved" as it is to say "I attend church and give to the poor therefore I am saved".

We all agree there is something other than grace that differentiates the saved from the unsaved and that difference is initiated by those that are saved.

The Traveler

[Justice]

Yes.

Since ALL are condemned, we know "the something" is unique among "the believers."

If God's grace alone, without anything from a man, was enough to save any one man, then ALL MEN would be saved.

I have preached this on many forums over the years until I was blue in the face.

But, something in the word works frightens most Christians. It wasn't until I was discussing this once on this forum that it really occured to me what it was.

Someone told me that it was Satan's lie that we have to do good works to be saved.

Huh?

Satan lies to us to do good works?

Am I the only one who sees the terrible irony of that statement? People can be so blinded by Satan that they actually think he would tell them that by believing we must follow Christ by doing good works is actually evil.

I am amazed that anyone who professes to believe in Christ can think it is evil to believe we must do good works. Christ commanded us to do them. Satan said, according to them, it is evil to believe we must do them. Who do we believe?

It's simply amazing.

[applepansy]

Isn't there a scripture or prophesy about people calling good evil and evil good in the last days? I'm trying to find it.

EDIT: I found it. Its in Isaiah's prophesy chapters 1-6.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Edited June 16, 2009 by applepansy

[hordak]

The works vs grace argument is pretty pointless as all the Christians i know believe the same thing (basically) , Saved by grace, good works come from the change of heart/help us be more being Christ like.

The difference is the belief in what those works are. LDS have different works then traditional Christians.

[Hemidakota]

I have discovered that most of the problems in dealing with religious differences are in defining basic terms. In the classic format of structured debate the first step is to agree upon the definition of critical terms. The term I believes needs definition is the term “works”. I will define works as anything (spiritual or physical) that is accomplished or done. Therefore when someone uses the phrase, “All you need to do is _______“ or, “If you will just _____”, then whatever goes in ether blank space, by definition is deemed a work.

In the classic debates over saved by grace or saved by works the answer becomes obvious. We are saved by G-d’s works of grace that are enabled for us by our works. If all we need to do is believe in Jesus Christ. Then we have defined a necessary work for us to do to be saved called, “believe in Jesus Christ”. Now we need to define what the works of “believing in Jesus Christ” are.

The next problem concerns the logic that is often used by man that references the things of G-d. My father, who had a great influence in my life, often talked about minimum producers and maximum producers. A minimum producer is someone that determines: what is the least possible contribution necessary to get the desired results. A maximum producer is someone that determines what is the most or best possible contribution they can do to guarantee without question the desired results – even if it is not expected. My father’s advice to me was always to be a maximum producer.

I very much believe and accept the LDS concept of works that define a belief in Jesus Christ. That is that you do the very maximum you can (all you can do) to enable that belief in Jesus Christ standard and regardless of what that is – Jesus, out of love and mercy will without any question save you.

Those of you that in essence have great desire to say to me – “Nanner, nanner, nanner; I did not have to believe or do hardly anything that you did and I am saved – nanner nanner nanner! Knock yourself out. But as for me and my house – we will believe and honor Jesus Christ with all our heart, might, mind and strength. We will be maximum producers and rejoice with Christ in all that believe in him – including all the minimum producers accepted by our L-rd and congratulate all that did overcome the world.

The Traveler

In our house, we will serve GOD or perish. My old family motto.

Works is only a foundation and faith is having a finite disposition. Both of which is still not enough to gain entrance into the kingdom. I have watched my brothers toil in work and failed their families, has I watched those who claimed mighty faith, only to see the Holy Ghost has not sealed them before the Godhead. So what is missing here?

[Traveler]

In our house, we will serve GOD or perish. My old family motto.

Works is only a foundation and faith is having a finite disposition. Both of which is still not enough to gain entrance into the kingdom. I have watched my brothers toil in work and failed their families, has I watched those who claimed mighty faith, only to see the Holy Ghost has not sealed them before the Godhead. So what is missing here?

According to the ancient prophet Isaiah it would be devotion to covenant during the probationary trial. It is interesting to me that in the ancient world to which Isaiah was accustom both in the religious and secular world that in order to have a honored place before the Suzerain a subject was required to display their loyalty (faith in) their king or presiding priest that represented the divine Suzerain of heaven. The test or trial was not to show strength or to “earn” the position but a demonstration of loyalty and faith. It was said that a servant served the Suzerain according to the mercy of the Suzerain and not because of any accomplishment of the subject. But such ancient notions have no place in modern understanding.

The Traveler

[mountthepavement]

Yes, Traveler, that is the first step.

The next is to decide whether or not a man can be influenced by the spirit to work works, or if God must work through a man, meaning the man has no say in the work performed.

To me, the simple answer is found in the fact that some will not be saved. It must be that we have a choice. If you believe otherwise, then you must believe God chooses to create and then damn those beings, with no choice of their own, for eternity.

Therefore, I believe a man can choose to work good works and be a light to those around him. By listening to the spirit, and through the enabling power of the atonement of Jesus Christ, a man is capable of far greater works than if left to himself. Therefore, when the scriptures say we love God if we work His works, we can choose to do them just as surely as we can choose to do evil.

What do you think of this:

We have the power to refuse god, righteousness, etc., (the power to sin) but not to choose christ. (Wasn't it said, you don't choose me, I chose you?)

Perhaps this can help reconcile the various factions?

[mountthepavement]

Yes and no. Definitions of words are important, but often context presents very different nuances. For example, the proverbs "Haste makes waste," and "He who hesitates is lost," are both true, though on the surface, they seem contradictory. Likewise, scripture says we are saved by faith, not be works, so no one can boast. Yet, faith comes by hearing...so is the root of our salvation hearing the gospel? And then, of course, James famous declaration, "Faith without works is dead." As we define our words, ideas and doctrines, we must leave room for context. Scripture does not contradict itself. But, often, our western habit of making rigid categories and demanding absolute true/false answers leads to confusion and conflict.

Rather than depicting nuance, perhaps the gospel, i.e.: the word of god, is trying to communicate a paradox. (Contrast paradox with proposition to get precisely what I mean.)

[mountthepavement]

Everytime I encounter this saved by grace versus saved by works discussion, I always go back to the ordinances. Because, if grace is enough, then why are ordinances necessary? Well, Jesus got baptized - so it must be important. That, to me, is necessary work.

What are the ordinances?

[mountthepavement]

Then we have defined a necessary work for us to do to be saved called, “believe in Jesus Christ”.

I like this point. Perhaps PC can illuminate us as to why this is not a work. Or, maybe I do not speak for him.

[mountthepavement]

Thank you for your input. As soon as someone says all you have to do is believe in Jesus then there is something other than grace that impacts salvation and it is not grace only. The point is that it does not matter if someone believes a little or a lot. The point of the debate is that it is not by our effort to believe just that we do believe and then the power of G-d's grace is in effect. Therefore even though it is by grace not because of our belief that we are saved our belief is still an element. So no one can boast of their works or their belief - It is as wrong to say "I believe therefore I am saved" as it is to say "I attend church and give to the poor therefore I am saved".

We all agree there is something other than grace that differentiates the saved from the unsaved and that difference is initiated by those that are saved.

The Traveler

Perhaps we believe by the grace of god, so to speak?

[mountthepavement]

Yes.

Since ALL are condemned, we know "the something" is unique among "the believers."

If God's grace alone, without anything from a man, was enough to save any one man, then ALL MEN would be saved.

I have preached this on many forums over the years until I was blue in the face.

But, something in the word works frightens most Christians. It wasn't until I was discussing this once on this forum that it really occured to me what it was.

Someone told me that it was Satan's lie that we have to do good works to be saved.

Huh?

Satan lies to us to do good works?

Am I the only one who sees the terrible irony of that statement? People can be so blinded by Satan that they actually think he would tell them that by believing we must follow Christ by doing good works is actually evil.

I am amazed that anyone who professes to believe in Christ can think it is evil to believe we must do good works. Christ commanded us to do them. Satan said, according to them, it is evil to believe we must do them. Who do we believe?

It's simply amazing.

First: can you bring a verse concerning "all are condemned," bible and/or LDS scripture?

Concerning the rest:

Isn't it possible to do a "good" act out of earthly calculation rather than faith? For instance, I can think of at least on earthly positive to being in the LDS church, simply that of community. Most people suffer in an earthly since in being isolated and experience need of inclusion. Any church supplies that. Now, if part of being in the community is the requirement to tithe (is this a hard and fast requirement?) then one might commit this good act simply out of, say, the fear of being alone. It is often remarked that satan preys on fears, especially that of being alone. I feel like I've heard this: for instance, in the movie Big Fish, I think, to cite something out of pop culture. Further, what do you think of the old Catholic practice of selling indulgences, which was one of the things that really set Luther of, contributing to his hard stance in favor of "faith alone"?

[mountthepavement]

LDS have different works then traditional Christians.

Will you name some? I'm interested.

[mountthepavement]

But such ancient notions have no place in modern understanding.

Why?

[Justice]

First: can you bring a verse concerning "all are condemned," bible and/or LDS scripture?

What do you believe happened as a result of the Fall of Adam? Why did God send His Son into the world, unless mankind was lost and fallen, or condemned?

I can get scriptures if you like, but I thought that was a pretty universal belief among Christians.

[Traveler]

Why?

A bit of irony and sarcasm. In general it does appear to me that the ancient understanding of Near Eastern Suzerain Servant Vassal law in established ecclesiastical and secular Kingdoms are ignored by modern scholars in interpreting ancient scriptural texts in creating modern versions of the Bible and contemporary doctrine.

The Traveler

[hordak]

Will you name some? I'm interested.

Temple work, tithing, church attendance, callings, genealogy.

[Hemidakota]

We can add a living PROPHET AND CONTINUOUS REVELATION.

[Traveler]

First: can you bring a verse concerning "all are condemned," bible and/or LDS scripture?

Concerning the rest:

Isn't it possible to do a "good" act out of earthly calculation rather than faith? For instance, I can think of at least on earthly positive to being in the LDS church, simply that of community. Most people suffer in an earthly since in being isolated and experience need of inclusion. Any church supplies that. Now, if part of being in the community is the requirement to tithe (is this a hard and fast requirement?) then one might commit this good act simply out of, say, the fear of being alone. It is often remarked that satan preys on fears, especially that of being alone. I feel like I've heard this: for instance, in the movie Big Fish, I think, to cite something out of pop culture. Further, what do you think of the old Catholic practice of selling indulgences, which was one of the things that really set Luther of, contributing to his hard stance in favor of "faith alone"?

You may find the following scripture interesting from the Book of Mormon - Alma chapter 22 verse 14:

"And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory;"

The Traveler