Hemidakota Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 True. The Savior did not NEED to be baptized by John the Baptist. It was an example.If our beloved Brother wanted to be with our FATHER in keeping His role as the Savior, it was required for our Elder brother to be baptized, as part of the covenants of entering into the FATHER's presence. Yes! We all know, He was sinless but the ritual was still required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgia2 Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 True. The Savior did not NEED to be baptized by John the Baptist. It was an example.YEP< Christ HAD to be baptized just like us because it is one of the ordinances EVERYBODY has to have performed to enter in to the Celestial Kingdom. Christ is not exempt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crywithasmile87 Posted June 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 Well, if you don't do big sins, then you don't have to confess them. :)Well gee, I wish I knew as many perfect, inhuman people as you do. Funny, I always thought sinning was natural and a way that we can grow and improve in mortality... you perfect people have really rained on my parade! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crywithasmile87 Posted June 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 If our beloved Brother wanted to be with our FATHER in keeping His role as the Savior, it was required for our Elder brother to be baptized, as part of the covenants of entering into the FATHER's presence. Yes! We all know, He was sinless but the ritual was still required. Christ was already God. Are you implying that a sin-removing ordinance - required for exaltation - was required of one who was sinless and exalted? (Please don't misunderstand... I realize that the Lord's baptism was necessary... just not in the way that you seem to understand it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crywithasmile87 Posted June 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 YEP< Christ HAD to be baptized just like us because it is one of the ordinances EVERYBODY has to have performed to enter in to the Celestial Kingdom. Christ is not exempt.We are baptized in similitude of the Savior... we die with him and then rise from the water as he did... it is symbolism for what He did, and what binds us to Him. Surely you aren't implying that the Lord was baptized in similitude of Himself, or that He was binding Himself back to Himself? (there is a word for this, and it has completely escaped my mind! Paul used it a lot.)I assure you that had Christ not been baptized, He would have still returned to Heavenly Father. However, I can't say that the atonement would have worked, that mankind could have been redeemed, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shining_stars Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 I sent u a message... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl62 Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 (edited) Carl, If you only confess to GodONLY?! Are you saying that ONLY confessing to God is not good enough? So are you saying that it's actually more important to confess your sins to the bishop than to God?! You've gotta be kidding me?! So then it is ultimately the bishop who forgives me of my sins and not God? Wow, I didn't know God appointed the bishop to die on the cross for my sins. I will NEVER put THAT much faith in man. Edited June 23, 2009 by Carl62 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shining_stars Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 · Hidden Hidden ONLY?! Are you saying that ONLY confessing to God is not good enough? So are you saying that it's actually more important to confess your sins to the bishop than to God?! You've gotta be kidding me?! So then it is ultimately the bishop who forgives me of my sins and not God? Wow, I didn't know God appointed the bishop to die on the cross for my sins. I will NEVER put THAT much faith in man.In my opininon he didnt said ONLY to mean that God is less important.. we all know that bishops cant forgive, but in order to be forgiven by our HF, whe a big sin is involved , God has stated that we must confess to our leaders, this is a sign of the humillity needed for repentance.. Link to comment
glow_inthe_dark_girl Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 in my opininon he didnt said ONLY to mean that God is less important.. we all know that bishops cant forgive, but in order to be forgiven by our HF, whe a big sin is involved , God has stated that we must confess to our leaders, this is a sign of the humillity needed for repentance.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl62 Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 (edited) And your first point is true as well. I can't stand it when people throw around the word "representative," as if having that title gives you diplomatic immunity or something. Being a representative of something doesn't grant infallibility... bishop's are just as prone to mistake and error in judgment as anyone else. Being EXPECTED to represent Christ in a positive manner does not excuse improper use of power. That anyone would even suggest that is disgusting.EXACTLY!! As a bishop, I believe we owe him that respect of his title, but to imply that he can exercise improper use of power and we're supposed to believe that this is how Jesus would really be talking to us if He were judging us at the moment and that we just simply have to go along with it and not say anything is the part that I find absolutely ludicrous!! As far as people in the church who believe that we're commanded to believe this, I think it's a VERY big percentage. Edited June 23, 2009 by Carl62 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl62 Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 in my opininon he didnt said ONLY to mean that God is less important.. we all know that bishops cant forgive, but in order to be forgiven by our HF, whe a big sin is involved , God has stated that we must confess to our leaders, this is a sign of the humillity needed for repentance..I think people are misunderstanding where I'm coming from on this. I NEVER said that we shouldn't confess big sins such as adultery, murder, or any other sins that actually do involve multiple persons. But for me, since we're laying our sins at the feet of a mortal human, then to expect anything less than a perfect, God-inspired judgement should not be unreasonable and that the judgement should not be based on any prejudices or biases. For us as imperfect human beings, that can be VERY difficult to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rameumptom Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 (edited) Since I do not know your bishop, nor you, I cannot judge any in this group. But I can give some advice from a story told me by Elder Vaughn J. Featherstone (70 emeritus). When younger, he lived in a ward where the bishop detested him. If there was a dirty job to be done, brother Featherstone got it. When it came time for the building assessments, he was assessed more than anyone else in the ward, even though his family lived very modestly and there were many wealthy people in the ward. He and his wife prayed about it, and felt they needed to follow the bishop, even though they knew he wasn't doing right. They sold their television and other items to meet the assessment. They did not complain nor bellyache to anyone about their concerns, but humbly submitted to the requirement of the bishop. A few weeks went by, and brother Featherstone was called as a member of the Seventy. Soon after, the bishop was released. In his ordination, brother Featherstone was told that the Lord had given him a test, to see if he would be faithful and humbly submit himself to the Lord's servant. Had he rebelled against the bishop, he would not have become a General Authority. While I'm not saying your bishop is anything like the bishop in this story, I am saying that we should respond to our bishops as did Elder Featherstone, so that we can learn to be humble and submissive when the time comes for the Lord to ask us to sacrifice anything and everything. I would recommend we consider this counsel with our bishops, and be careful about condemning them, especially in public on a list like this one. While the bishop may not be doing right, who are we to judge? And how do we know if the Lord has not inspired the bishop to test and try us? Perhaps the repentance process for all of us begins with true humility, and not just confession of sins or a little remorse. Edited June 23, 2009 by rameumptom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rameumptom Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 ONLY?! Are you saying that ONLY confessing to God is not good enough? So are you saying that it's actually more important to confess your sins to the bishop than to God?! You've gotta be kidding me?! So then it is ultimately the bishop who forgives me of my sins and not God? Wow, I didn't know God appointed the bishop to die on the cross for my sins. I will NEVER put THAT much faith in man.Carl, you are reading things into what I wrote. I said that Jesus forgives us, but the bishop must forgive us on behalf of the Church. Take my statements in context please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmLee Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 I once spoke with a young lady and I felt we had a very nice discussion. Later, I listened as she shared our conversation with her mother. It was as if we were speaking with someone else. She felt I was harsh and very judgmental. I lacked understanding or compassion. I reminded her of a few things I had said, which seemed to have missed. I reiterated a few points that she misunderstood. And I apologized to her for not making myself clear and assured her what I said was with love and compassion. I prayed a lot that night. I knew what I needed to work on if I was to magnify my calling. Our talks changed after that. She did listen a little closer and I was more selective in my words as well as the tone of my voice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elgama Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 have you spoken to the Stake President yet ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl62 Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 Carl,I think you are missing part of the point. When we sin big, we often sin against the Church itself, which is represented by our bishop. If you stole from a store, you would go to the store manager, who represents the store. If you have made covenants of baptism/priesthood/temple, and sin big, you have sinned against the Church in this. Perhaps your bad example may even leave the Church in a bad light. For this, you need to confess.The Bishop's also there as a judge in Israel to help you repent and get your life back on track. If you only confess to God, do you think you are ready to go in to see the bishop and stake president for a temple recommend interview? What would you say in the interview? Or would you stay out of the temple, simply to avoid speaking to the bishop about the sin (I have known people like that)?There's your whole entire quote, rameumpton. So where did you say anything in it about Jesus forgiving us? Where did I take anything out of context? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 Only Heavenly Father can forgive us. Not the Bishop or anyone else. However, that being said, serious transgressions must be confessed to a Bishop or leader that holds stewardship in an area. I posted this before but this is from lds.orgSerious transgressions, such as violations of the law of chastity, may jeopardize a person's membership in the Church. Therefore, such sins need to be confessed to both the Lord and His priesthood representatives in the Church. This is done under the care of a bishop or branch president and possibly a stake or mission president, who serve as watchmen and judges in the Church. While only the Lord can forgive sins, these priesthood leaders play a critical role in the process of repentance. They will keep confessions confidential and help throughout the process of repentance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rameumptom Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 In my original quote, my point wasn't about Jesus forgiving us. It was the Bishop's responsibility to forgive us on behalf of the Church. Two entirely different things. His job is ALSO to HELP us repent. You'll notice I never stated that he forgives us on behalf of Jesus. Rather, he can counsel us on the things we can and should do to obtain forgiveness from Christ. I was amazed that you read so much into my post, when I never said anything about the forgiveness of sins, which ONLY Jesus can forgive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl62 Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 In my original quote, my point wasn't about Jesus forgiving us. It was the Bishop's responsibility to forgive us on behalf of the Church. Two entirely different things.His job is ALSO to HELP us repent. You'll notice I never stated that he forgives us on behalf of Jesus. Rather, he can counsel us on the things we can and should do to obtain forgiveness from Christ.I was amazed that you read so much into my post, when I never said anything about the forgiveness of sins, which ONLY Jesus can forgive.Thanks for clarifying, rameumpton.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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