Faith/Works

[prisonchaplain]

Just to add a random thought that is either a rabbit trail, or just might be profound...could it be that faith is what God wants of us, and works are what the world needs of us? God knew Abraham would sacrifice his son before he even asked. However, we couldn't know it and learn from it until he actually did so. Likewise, many lost souls only need a Christian to demonstrate faith by their works, so that they too can find God.

[Misshalfway]

I think it is more than that PC. I think God meets us on the other side of our faith filled works. I think He knows we need works to grow. I think he changes us as we move our feet forward, not before.

[applepansy]

General follow up:

It is common parlance to think of sins as actions, perhaps less-so to think of faith as such. However, I believe that y'all are reflecting the notion in LDS that faith is commensurate with action or works. Perhaps we can gain something by considering whether sin isn't the opposite of faith in every way. As such, sin is connected directly with actions, but has something to it which is internal as well. This may help us to realize something that we hadn't previously about sin.

This, I think, is the simplest, let's say most parsimonious, understanding of what faith is: the opposite of sin.

What is sin? That is inherently a subject of debate, because we would all like to conceal our sin, guard it, cherish it, celebrate it, excuse it, flaunt it, and finally despair of it, all of which only contribute further to it. Faith is what happens when we don't do those things. That's why I say faith can be defined only negatively. I mistrust any positive things we might have to say about it: it's all poetry -- rhetoric potentially available to the clever, sinful mind.

Thanks y'all!

People can believe in God and still commit sin. We are all sinners. We are all here to repent and learn what we need to do to return to our Heavenly Father and live with Him.

Faith is not the opposite of sin. Nor is faith defined negatively. You can pholosophize all you'd like but faith is very positive. When you have faith in God and you follow through, your works are good, not evil/sinful. For me faith is a belief in God, and for some faith is a belief in a higher power.

Sin is different depending on who you talk to. Everyone believes that killing is a sin. But not everyone believes that smoking is a sin. So depending on your understanding and what you have learned about God will determine what you consider sinful.

Your statements leave out the middle...the place between Faith and Works. I believe that when we have faith in God or a higher power, then we have a space of time where we become aware of our sinful nature. This middle is where we beome honest with ourselves. After honesty with ourselve and God, then works come naturally. With faith and honesty comes a desire to become better. To reach beyond ourselves to help others. To forsake selfishness. To serve God.

That makes Faith AND Works especially positive in my mind.

[prisonchaplain]

I think it is more than that PC. I think God meets us on the other side of our faith filled works. I think He knows we need works to grow. I think he changes us as we move our feet forward, not before.

Perhaps this is the crux of the matter then. God met me in a Sunday School class, in November 1974. He baptized me with power and the Holy Spirit at a Bible camp altar in the summer of 1978. He's been with me from the get-go of any good work He's accomplished through me. Even in baptism, He did not meet me as I arose from the waters, but rather I was buried with Him, and came up with Him.

I know you believe this too, because you pray, you seek His face. Perhaps, I go further in believing He holds nothing back--not his favor, not his grace, mercy, salvatioon, or giftings. It's all ready, just waiting for me to embrace them.

[Justice]

Well, then, back to the question, if He can impress upon one man so strongly for that man to follow His will, why can't He impress that upon all men? Doesn't He have the power to make all come to Him?

[applepansy]

Well, then, back to the question, if He can impress upon one man so strongly for that man to follow His will, why can't He impress that upon all men? Doesn't He have the power to make all come to Him?

He can but He won't. We have our God-given agency. Heavenly Father will never force His will or thinking on us. We have to ask for and accpet His will.

Yes, He has the power to "make" all men come to Him. But that was Satan's plan. Our Heavenly Father wants us to come back because we want to be there. He wants us to be happy...not forced.

And then their are those who have felt the impressions from God and choose to turn away. Again, Agency!

[Justice]

Yes, agency implies it's partly man's responsibility. I am trying to get to the bottom of if it is not partly man's responsibiity, how are some not saved. It would have to be God's choice not to save them if it was not man's fault. If it is man's fault then that means there is something that man didn't do, making it his fault. This would mean man has to do something, or perform some work to accept Christ's atonement.

[prisonchaplain]

Justice, the fact that God does not force us to receive his gift does not bestow upon those of us who embrace it any sort of merit. We are willful recipients of mercy. Those who reject are volitional rebels. Whosoever will may come.

[AnthonyB]

I read this quote and quite liked it....

"It isn't faith and works nor faith without works but a faith that works."

A faith that compells us to work because the gift we obtain from it is so generous and wonderful that not to respond meaningfully to it would be nearly impossible. Think of the best news you could imagine receiving, (A loved one thought dead in war suddenly found alive, a long desired for pregnancy) whatever that may be for you. Imagine receiving it. Then attempting to not let that news impact who you are.

As for God compelling people.

Imagine for instance you could compell anyone you wished to be your spouse or friend. Do you think you could remain satisfied with knowing that they had not freely chosen you but you had compelled them to. That you'd never know that if you did give them freedom to choose, if they would choose to still relate to you. Both we and God are relational beings. We crave relationship and relationship seems to require a free will choice to be created.

Maybe what your asking is salvation conditional? Are there conditions required for accepting it? The answer for me is yes, faith is an absolute condition of receiving it. (That is as far as PC is likely to go) I would also believe that repentance, confession and baptism are conditions for being saved but they aren't absolute ones. They are conditions for man to obey but God can in his sovereign choice can save without them. However faith is an absolute condition, without it you cannot receive the gift.

Edited June 21, 2009 by AnthonyB

[Justice]

Justice, the fact that God does not force us to receive his gift does not bestow upon those of us who embrace it any sort of merit. We are willful recipients of mercy. Those who reject are volitional rebels. Whosoever will may come.

This seems opposite from the belief that all men are lost and fallen to begin with.

Also, I think "being saved" is different than "gaining eternal life." PC, for being saved, you are right. But, for eternal life, Jesus taught so many parables stating that we have to do in order to become, not that we become in order to do. This is agency.

We cannot claim to believe unless we do His will. Well, what happens when we sin? We repent.

[prisonchaplain]

This seems opposite from the belief that all men are lost and fallen to begin with.

It shouldn't. If we were not lost and fallen to begin with, we would not need salvation.

Also, I think "being saved" is different than "gaining eternal life." PC, for being saved, you are right. But, for eternal life, Jesus taught so many parables stating that we have to do in order to become, not that we become in order to do. This is agency.

I'm not seeing this. In fact, to really do, we must not only receive salvation, but also the gift of the Holy Spirit. Just look at Peter, before and after being filled with the Spirit.

We cannot claim to believe unless we do His will. Well, what happens when we sin? We repent.

I said this earlier--God knows we believe when we are converted, but others don't know until do what God says. So, works imho, are not for God to see, but for the lost to observe, so that they too might be saved.

[Misshalfway]

Perhaps this is the crux of the matter then. God met me in a Sunday School class, in November 1974. He baptized me with power and the Holy Spirit at a Bible camp altar in the summer of 1978. He's been with me from the get-go of any good work He's accomplished through me. Even in baptism, He did not meet me as I arose from the waters, but rather I was buried with Him, and came up with Him.

I know you believe this too, because you pray, you seek His face. Perhaps, I go further in believing He holds nothing back--not his favor, not his grace, mercy, salvatioon, or giftings. It's all ready, just waiting for me to embrace them.

Our beliefs are so close, aren't they?

I see you points.....in this post and others. I think perhaps I see all the same things that you do. I see Him walk my life with me thru my life and his grace extended all the while. But I see ebbs and flows in the process. I see God more like a parent. He will extend his help to me, but he won't do my work for me. If so, he would spoil and cripple my progress.

Perhaps it is the concept of eternal progression that separates these two camps. I see baptism and conversion as the time one puts their life in God's hands....commits to living according to God's will. And in that sense, I think we are pretty close to believing the same things. But I see God, not so much as a powerful benefactor, but more like a parent who is raising his children to become more like him. We change, we grow, we develop as we exercise our spiritual capacities and potential. We learn from our mistakes and sins. We need Christ every day. And of course he is there to meet us, but not before our hearts become penitent. With my own children, I can't do their walking for them. I won't. I wouldn't be loving if I did.

Jesus says "Come follow me". He leds from the helm, not from the heals. It is our "work" to do the following as we learn to master the flesh and to conquer temptation -- something that is a life long battle. A circumstance that absolutely needs the help of a God to accomplish.

In my opinion, the Christian saved by grace doctrine doesn't go far enough. It seems to concentrate on a few important points while missing a bigger picture. I think that is why I can't become a protestant. As I have attempted to try on this doctrine and understand why so many believe it, I find my inner spirit appreciating but wanting.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Misshalfway

[AnthonyB]

PC,

Once someone is saved, do you beleive in different rewards based on different levels/types of work? (I'm not talking about the LDS multi-level heaven but that there is a difference in the reward a believer gets determined by their works. That some works/actions will be burned away as dross and some will remain as gold)

Misshalfway,

Do you love your kids because of what they do or inspite of what they do? If one of your children "prodigalized" (eg became like the prodigal son), does that change your love, does that change your desire for your child? Wouldn't you be waiting with arms outstretched before the child returned to you? No matter what your child don't they remain your child?

Now if they rejected you and refued to allow you to help them, then you can't assist them but up to that point you would do all you can. Even if that meant sometimes allowing them to learn the hard lessons from their disobedience.

In the protestant veiw, faith makes you a child of God. Once your God's child he is your loving Father. Your kids don't do chores around your house to be your kids but because (hopefully) out of love for you as their parent.In the same way we don't do works to become God's kids but if we truly are God's kids we can't help but help to become like him, in the same way your kids unknowingly adopt many traits and actions from you.

[Maureen]

...In my opinion, the Christian saved by grace doctrine doesn't go far enough.

How far do you think salvation should go? Do you believe there are different degrees of salvation?

It seems to concentrate on a few important points while missing a bigger picture....

What bigger picture is it missing? Are you referring to exaltation?

M.

[Misshalfway]

PC,

Misshalfway,

Do you love your kids because of what they do or inspite of what they do? If one of your children "prodigalized" (eg became like the prodigal son), does that change your love, does that change your desire for your child? Wouldn't you be waiting with arms outstretched before the child returned to you? No matter what your child don't they remain your child?

Now if they rejected you and refued to allow you to help them, then you can't assist them but up to that point you would do all you can. Even if that meant sometimes allowing them to learn the hard lessons from their disobedience.

In the protestant veiw, faith makes you a child of God. Once your God's child he is your loving Father. Your kids don't do chores around your house to be your kids but because (hopefully) out of love for you as their parent.In the same way we don't do works to become God's kids but if we truly are God's kids we can't help but help to become like him, in the same way your kids unknowingly adopt many traits and actions from you.

Hi Anthony.

In answer to your question, I think the LDS theology would line up perfectly with your prodigal example. Of course God longs after all of his children. In the LDS view, we are all his children regardless of our belief systems and choices. All who walk this planet are literally his spirit children and lived in his presence prior to coming here. Coming to earth is a lot like parent sending their children to college and hoping they choose well as they learn how to take responsibility for themselves thru some life experience. Why wouldn't he love and long for all of us? In our Pearl of Great price, there is one scripture that describes how God cries for the residue of the people who won't choose him.

I think because of your post, you might still be thinking that LDS people believe in "earning" salvation. I am fairly sure many outside of our faith see our belief system this way. I don't give my children chores to "earn" a relationship with me. I give them chores to help them learn. Chores are one the many tools in my parental tool belt. I allow them stewardships and responsibility because it is something that they need as it teaches them to trust in me and in themselves. I also give them rules and boundaries and consequences and require obedience. I give them my help and my counsel and I pick them up when they fall and laugh at their jokes. All these things tell my children I love them. And I love them enough to tell them truth and to turn them into the police if they need it.

And my kids at the moment of their birth are already like me because they came from me. They also came as children needing some help to grow up so they can become the best of their potential. We are the same. Divine potential waiting to be realized.

I see our life here on earth in similar terms. Our Father in heaven isn't just seeking to save us. He is seeking to teach us eternal lessons inside an early classroom. We need this preparation so that we are ready to handle the blessings he so desperately wants to give. I don't give an irresponsible or disobedient child the keys to my car and my credit card. Neither would I give someone permission to cut open my belly if they hadn't been to medical school. Father doesn't either. Works are not designed for earning anything. They are tools that train us, prepare us, strengthen us so that we are ready to receive the blessings of the eternities and the knowledge that comes along the way. We must be prepared before we are blessed. And baptism or conversion is the beginning of the path to God, not an end result. We continue in a converted state to battle the natural man and the adversary. We can't stop working and striving in obedience and repentance.

Gods love is the same for all his children. We all are blessed with the ability to choose. It is the only thing God won't/can't control. And there are eternal consequences to our earthy choices. Love can't stop consequences. Love can't make the prodigal come home. Love isn't giving someone something they aren't ready for either. I think many parents have had to learn that lesson the hard way as they indulge too much.

And to answer your Maureen--

I feel "saved by grace" doesn't go far enough, because it doesn 't factor in the importance of both faith and works. A balance that seems very biblical to me. And it doesn't seem, as far as I understand it today, to incorporate fully the principles of progression, obedience, and repentance. Now I will say that I have been told that repentance after being saved is important, but I am fuzzy on the concept because if one is "changed" to become like God and that works are only an expression of that change , what need is there for repentance afterward? And why don't the "saved" stop sinning? It seems like the "saving" or becoming a child of God is a somewhat incomplete process. And I don't see a theological solution to that situation inside the doctrine.

Additionally, Saved by grace also does not incorporate all of God's children. It isn't fair, if you will allow me to use that word, because it doesn't allow for all the different circumstances one might experience here on earth including never hearing the name of Christ let alone his gospel. If God does love all his children, he must in all fairness, provide a way for all to receive his blessings by giving everyone a fair chance at hearing the truth. Again, I don't see a satisfying answer to this dilemma. It seems that God is extremely gracious to a few and rather ruthless to the rest.

Again, this is my limited understanding of the doctrine. Please correct me if I am mis understanding something.

[Misshalfway]

PC,

Misshalfway,

Do you love your kids because of what they do or inspite of what they do? If one of your children "prodigalized" (eg became like the prodigal son), does that change your love, does that change your desire for your child? Wouldn't you be waiting with arms outstretched before the child returned to you? No matter what your child don't they remain your child?

Now if they rejected you and refued to allow you to help them, then you can't assist them but up to that point you would do all you can. Even if that meant sometimes allowing them to learn the hard lessons from their disobedience.

In the protestant veiw, faith makes you a child of God. Once your God's child he is your loving Father. Your kids don't do chores around your house to be your kids but because (hopefully) out of love for you as their parent.In the same way we don't do works to become God's kids but if we truly are God's kids we can't help but help to become like him, in the same way your kids unknowingly adopt many traits and actions from you.

Hi Anthony.

In answer to your question, I think the LDS theology would line up perfectly with your prodigal example. Of course God longs after all of his children. In the LDS view, we are all his children regardless of our belief systems and choices. All who walk this planet are literally his spirit children and lived in his presence prior to coming here. Coming to earth is a lot like parent sending their children to college and hoping they choose well as they learn how to take responsibility for themselves thru some life experience. Why wouldn't he love and long for all of us? In our Pearl of Great price, there is one scripture that describes how God cries for the residue of the people who won't choose him.

I think because of your post, you might still be thinking that LDS people believe in "earning" salvation. I am fairly sure many outside of our faith see our belief system this way. I don't give my children chores to "earn" a relationship with me. I give them chores to help them learn. Chores are one the many tools in my parental tool belt. I allow them stewardships and responsibility because it is something that they need as it teaches them to trust in me and in themselves. I also give them rules and boundaries and consequences and require obedience. I give them my help and my counsel and I pick them up when they fall and laugh at their jokes. All these things tell my children I love them. And I love them enough to tell them truth and to turn them into the police if they need it.

And my kids at the moment of their birth are already like me because they came from me. They also came as children needing some help to grow up so they can become the best of their potential. We are the same. Divine potential waiting to be realized.

I see our life here on earth in similar terms. Our Father in heaven isn't just seeking to save us. He is seeking to teach us eternal lessons inside an earthly classroom. We need this preparation so that we are ready to handle the blessings he so desperately wants to give. I don't give an irresponsible or disobedient child the keys to my car and my credit card. Neither would I give someone permission to cut open my belly if they hadn't been to medical school. Father doesn't either. Works are not designed for earning anything. They are tools that train us, prepare us, strengthen us so that we are ready to receive the blessings of the eternities and the knowledge that comes along the way. We must be prepared before we are blessed. And baptism or conversion is the beginning of the path to God, not an end result. We continue in a converted state to battle the natural man and the adversary. We can't stop working and striving in obedience and repentance. We must prove ourselves as profitable servants.

Gods love is the same for all his children. We all are blessed with the ability to choose. It is the only thing God won't/can't control. And there are eternal consequences to our earthy choices. Love can't stop consequences. Love can't make the prodigal come home. Love can't obey for someone. Love isn't giving someone something they aren't ready for either. I think many parents have had to learn that lesson the hard way as they indulge too much.

And to answer your Maureen--

I feel "saved by grace" doesn't go far enough, because it doesn 't factor in the importance of both faith and works. A balance that seems very biblical to me. And it doesn't seem, as far as I understand it today, to incorporate fully the principles of progression, obedience, and repentance. Now I will say that I have been told that repentance after being saved is important, but I am fuzzy on the concept because if one is "changed" to become like God and that works are only an expression of that change , what need is there for repentance afterward? And why don't the "saved" stop sinning? It seems like the "saving" or becoming a child of God is a somewhat incomplete process. And I don't see a theological solution to that situation inside the doctrine.

Additionally, Saved by grace also does not incorporate all of God's children. It isn't fair, if you will allow me to use that word, because it doesn't allow for all the different circumstances one might experience here on earth including never hearing the name of Christ let alone his gospel. If God does love all his children, he must in all fairness, provide a way for all to receive his blessings by giving everyone a fair chance at hearing the truth. Again, I don't see a satisfying answer to this dilemma. It seems that God is extremely gracious to a few and rather ruthless to the rest.

Again, this is my limited understanding of the doctrine. Please correct me if I am mis understanding something.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Misshalfway

[Traveler]

Justice, the fact that God does not force us to receive his gift does not bestow upon those of us who embrace it any sort of merit. We are willful recipients of mercy. Those who reject are volitional rebels. Whosoever will may come.

PC – Often I have come to realize that after all is said and done that you and I agree more than we disagree. However, I do not think I could disagree more with this statement in light of the context of faith and works that we are having.

Previously you stated that faith is a gift from G-d. On this I do agree but then there are few things you now say that really bother me.

First: “the fact that God does not force us to receive his gift does not bestow upon those of us who embrace it any sort of merit.” When I read this sentence I thought to myself that either you made a mistake and said this wrong or I do not understand what you are trying to say. Do you really mean that there is no merit in embracing G-d’s gifts? If there is no merit then G-d cannot be just – his judgments would of necessity be unjust.

There is a lot said about earning and worthiness that I think goes too far. I think you understate the worth it is to G-d that we embrace his gifts and exercise whatever faith me may have. I believe that those that embrace G-d’s gifts are valued greatly by G-d, of value to G-d and do indeed define something of worth or worthy to him that he would invest divine treasures that includes “all that he has”.

Second: “We are willful recipients of mercy.” How can anyone be a “willful” recipient of something they do not know or understand and the only attachment they have to such a thing is by faith that is not of them to begin with? How can it be mercy if it is contingent on something outside of the offer of that mercy unless there is something of value to the offer that must be given back in exchange for the mercy?

Thirdly: “Those who reject are volitional rebels.” Did not Jesus say by his own mouth that those that do not know what they are doing should be forgiven? How can anyone therefore be a rebel unless they clearly and knowingly reject G-d? By the very definition of the fall, such a fallen man cannot know of G-d and therefore cannot clearly and knowingly reject him or even qualify as deserving volitional rebels.

Finely: Although it was not in you post – I am concerned by those that believe because they have accepted his gift of mercy and therefore experienced his goodness and felt of his love and then sin – are not much more the volitional rebels than the poor sinner that in ignorance has not embraced G-d’s gifts and does sin in complete ignorance of that merciful and loving G-d?

And so the faith and works issue continues – at least for me as I try to live by what faith I have experienced not only defines the believer (including myself) but that very G-d in which they (and I) by faith (at best) pretend to know.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Our beliefs are so close, aren't they?

In my opinion, the Christian saved by grace doctrine doesn't go far enough. It seems to concentrate on a few important points while missing a bigger picture. I think that is why I can't become a protestant. As I have attempted to try on this doctrine and understand why so many believe it, I find my inner spirit appreciating but wanting.

We draw a distinction between conversion and discipleship. What is missing from the evangelical doctrine of salvation by grace is our doctrine of "progressive sanctification." Christians are to grow into the characteristics of Jesus. In many ways, LDS doctrine simply conflates conversion and sanctification.

ANTHONY: Yes, I believe that Christians will have differing levels of responsibility in glory, based upon their faithfulness. There will be no disappointments. Rather, everyone will be pleased to find that they will do that which is challenging, fulfilling, and appropriate to their personality and level of spiritual growth.

Edited June 22, 2009 by prisonchaplain

[Misshalfway]

How does "progressive sanctification work"? And how do works/faith play a role?

[prisonchaplain]

How does "progressive sanctification work"? And how do works/faith play a role?

Progressive sanctification means we are growing into sanctification (holiness, righteousness, goodness). As we walk with Jesus, we become more like Him. We increase in good works, good words, and good thoughts. In this light, when James says "faith without works is dead," we agree. If there is no progress, something has gone terribly wrong. Perhaps the faith was a non-starter, or perhaps the cares of this world choked the life out of it?

So, if I understand LDS teaching correctly, the primary difference is that I do not have to wonder if I am good enough for God's kingdom--if I've "done all I can." On the other hand, we do judge ourselves, so God does not have to. If there is sin, we must repent. It may be that in our progress, we sometimes take two steps back, before going ahead three steps.

In a sense, I can say that I have been saved (Christ died for me), I AM saved (I embrace his salvation as my own), and I am being saved (I am growing in christlikeness, being prepared for my place in Glory).

[Misshalfway]

Progressive sanctification means we are growing into sanctification (holiness, righteousness, goodness). As we walk with Jesus, we become more like Him. We increase in good works, good words, and good thoughts. In this light, when James says "faith without works is dead," we agree. If there is no progress, something has gone terribly wrong. Perhaps the faith was a non-starter, or perhaps the cares of this world choked the life out of it?

So, if I understand LDS teaching correctly, the primary difference is that I do not have to wonder if I am good enough for God's kingdom--if I've "done all I can." On the other hand, we do judge ourselves, so God does not have to. If there is sin, we must repent. It may be that in our progress, we sometimes take two steps back, before going ahead three steps.

In a sense, I can say that I have been saved (Christ died for me), I AM saved (I embrace his salvation as my own), and I am being saved (I am growing in christlikeness, being prepared for my place in Glory).

This sounds very mormon to me. :) I have never heard a protestant explain it this way before.

Sometimes I feel very grateful for saved by grace conversations. I sometimes think that in my past worshipping that I failed to understand grace. Perhaps there are others who do too.

We LDS use the phrase "working out our own salvation" a lot. Very different from "earning" ones salvation. And I think that is what you are talking about. The process of self examination and course correction thru repentance with concentrated effort on restoring oneself to being a doer of the word.

I think this is what I felt was missing before in your earlier comments about being changed only to serve the rest of the world. There is no doubt we are more used by God as we become more righteous. Service to others and God. It is all part of it. I just think though that we must weed our own gardens as well. And it seems so often when trying to explain this process, we LDS are accused of "earning." If this is indeed what protestants believe, then we are closer that we think. I do however wonder if this is what you believe, PC. Not sure I see this concept in all of protestantism. That is something that is somewhat concerning to me.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Misshalfway

[Seanette]

I've heard the claim from Protestants (of the more fundamentalist/evangelical stripe) that "works" (as in, obedience to God's commands) somehow constitute a rejection or effort to negate the Atonement. Their view is that if you profess belief, you're "saved" and have all sins washed away, regardless of how you live thereafter.

[prisonchaplain]

I've heard the claim from Protestants (of the more fundamentalist/evangelical stripe) that "works" (as in, obedience to God's commands) somehow constitute a rejection or effort to negate the Atonement. Their view is that if you profess belief, you're "saved" and have all sins washed away, regardless of how you live thereafter.

Seanette, in answering this, I'll be answering Misshalfway's concern also. My guess is that your protestant-evangelical-fundamentalists-saved-by-grace-alone friends are speaking strictly of CONVERSION. I am saved because Christ died for me and I accepted his gift of forgiveness and eternal life. I didn't earn it. To say so would be an insult to Jesus' shed blood.

BUT, if I am truly saved I will produce good works. My life will be changed. AND, if the life lived after an alleged conversion looks all too much like the life lived before conversion, reasonable people will question whether the conversion succeeded in converting. In other words, "Faith without works is dead."

[prisonchaplain]

First: “the fact that God does not force us to receive his gift does not bestow upon those of us who embrace it any sort of merit.” When I read this sentence I thought to myself that either you made a mistake and said this wrong or I do not understand what you are trying to say. Do you really mean that there is no merit in embracing G-d’s gifts? If there is no merit then G-d cannot be just – his judgments would of necessity be unjust.

There is a lot said about earning and worthiness that I think goes too far. I think you understate the worth it is to G-d that we embrace his gifts and exercise whatever faith me may have. I believe that those that embrace G-d’s gifts are valued greatly by G-d, of value to G-d and do indeed define something of worth or worthy to him that he would invest divine treasures that includes “all that he has”.

We do not merit salvation, but we definitely are of worth to God. Accepting a gift offered does not turn the gift into a purchase. That is my meaning. Of course we are worth much to God, we're his beloved creation.

Second: “We are willful recipients of mercy.” How can anyone be a “willful” recipient of something they do not know or understand and the only attachment they have to such a thing is by faith that is not of them to begin with? How can it be mercy if it is contingent on something outside of the offer of that mercy unless there is something of value to the offer that must be given back in exchange for the mercy?

Now it's me that doesn't understand. You seem to find it illogical that I would say a mercy, a gift, is something received, not purchased, not exchanged. I don't know how to see it any other way. If you give me $50, would I dare turn around and say, "Traveler paid me $50 for the honor of my accepting it from him?" Would you not consider me arrogant if I had such an attitude?

Thirdly: “Those who reject are volitional rebels.” Did not Jesus say by his own mouth that those that do not know what they are doing should be forgiven? How can anyone therefore be a rebel unless they clearly and knowingly reject G-d? By the very definition of the fall, such a fallen man cannot know of G-d and therefore cannot clearly and knowingly reject him or even qualify as deserving volitional rebels.

Romans 1 informs us that people do know, by the very testimony of nature, and by the internal sense of right and wrong--and are without excuse. Rejection of God's gift is rebellion against our Creator.

Finely: Although it was not in you post – I am concerned by those that believe because they have accepted his gift of mercy and therefore experienced his goodness and felt of his love and then sin – are not much more the volitional rebels than the poor sinner that in ignorance has not embraced G-d’s gifts and does sin in complete ignorance of that merciful and loving G-d?

I leave the judgment of those alleged to be ignorant to God. He is just and right. All his judgments will be declared just, right and merciful by the throng of humanity on that great day.

[Justice]

PC, here are some scriptures from the Book of Mormon, written by Moroni, the man (angel) who later appeared to Joseph Smith and gave him the plates. He wrote this as he was abridging the record of a group of people who left Babylon at the time of the tower, and the confounding of the languages... about 2300 BC if I remember correctly.

If you read this carefully you will understand why I believe works are of faith, and both are before conversion. It is after the trial of our faith, which includes the need for works, that we receive the gift.

Ether 12:

4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

5 And it came to pass that Ether did prophesy great and marvelous things unto the people, which they did not believe, because they saw them not.

6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.

7 For it was by faith that Christ showed himself unto our fathers, after he had risen from the dead; and he showed not himself unto them until after they had faith in him; wherefore, it must needs be that some had faith in him, for he showed himself not unto the world.

8 But because of the faith of men he has shown himself unto the world, and glorified the name of the Father, and prepared a way that thereby others might be partakers of the heavenly gift, that they might hope for those things which they have not seen.

9 Wherefore, ye may also have hope, and be partakers of the gift, if ye will but have faith.

10 Behold it was by faith that they of old were called after the holy order of God.

11 Wherefore, by faith was the law of Moses given. But in the gift of his Son hath God prepared a more excellent way; and it is by faith that it hath been fulfilled.

12 For if there be no faith among the children of men God can do no miracle among them; wherefore, he showed not himself until after their faith.

13 Behold, it was the faith of Alma and Amulek that caused the prison to tumble to the earth.

14 Behold, it was the faith of Nephi and Lehi that wrought the change upon the Lamanites, that they were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

15 Behold, it was the faith of Ammon and his brethren which wrought so great a miracle among the Lamanites.

16 Yea, and even all they who wrought miracles wrought them by faith, even those who were before Christ and also those who were after.

17 And it was by faith that the three disciples obtained a promise that they should not taste of death; and they obtained not the promise until after their faith.

18 And neither at any time hath any wrought miracles until after their faith; wherefore they first believed in the Son of God.

19 And there were many whose faith was so exceedingly strong, even before Christ came, who could not be kept from within the veil, but truly saw with their eyes the things which they had beheld with an eye of faith, and they were glad.

20 And behold, we have seen in this record that one of these was the brother of Jared; for so great was his faith in God, that when God put forth his finger he could not hide it from the sight of the brother of Jared, because of his word which he had spoken unto him, which word he had obtained by faith.

21 And after the brother of Jared had beheld the finger of the Lord, because of the promise which the brother of Jared had obtained by faith, the Lord could not withhold anything from his sight; wherefore he showed him all things, for he could no longer be kept without the veil.