Temple Marriage, but spouse leaves church?

[beefche]

Forever, I am begging you! PLEASE GIVE RESOURCES FOR YOUR COMMENTS. You have said this time and time again, and we have asked time and time again for verifiable resources to back up your theory that all one has to do is be sealed in the temple and one is saved in the celestial kingdom.

I think we have provided information to show that one does not lose agency even if sealed in the temple.

Sorry, tizzy, to derail your thread, but forever has made this assertion many times and refuses to provide any source.

[tizzyk]

it would seem that foreverafter is not correct...besides that it doesn't make sense (although in my case I almost wish it were true)....

Here is a quote from "Celestial Marriage" by Bruce R McConkie:

"In a manner of speaking we have, here and now, probationary families, even though we have been married in the temple, because our marriage in the temple is conditional. It is conditioned upon our subsequent compliance with the laws, the terms, the conditions of the covenant that we then make. And so when I get married in the temple, I am put in a position where I can strive and labor and learn to love my wife with the perfection that must exist if I am going to have a fulness of the glory that attends this covenant in eternity, and it puts her in a position to learn to love me in the same way. It puts both of us in a position to bring up our children in light and truth and to school and prepare them to be members of an eternal family unit, and it puts us as children of our parents in a position where we honor our parents and do what is necessary to have these eternal ties go from one generation to the next and the next. Eventually there will be a great patriarchal chain of exalted beings from Adam to the last man, with any links left out being individuals who are not qualified and worthy to inherit, possess, and receive along the indicated line." (LDS.org - New Era Article - Celestial Marriage June 1978 ).

So as I had thought, our temple marriage is dependent on our righteousness. If my husband does not fulfill his covenants and I still fulfill mine....I will receive of exaltation but my husband will not....so the sealing will be effectively broken in the afterlife. He will go to whatever degree of heaven he is assigned to and I will go to mine....

[pam]

Let me remind of one of the rules:

12. You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this site to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law.

If you can't provide references for information that is perceived to be inaccurate then appropriate action will be taken. I don't think it is asking too much to provide references when asked when it is questioned that information or doctrine could be incorrect. I've been more than patient with this.

[foreverafter]

Tizzy,

I thought you were hoping you could be with your husband in the next life even if he wasn't worthy. Maybe I was wrong in thinking that. No one of course has to be with an abusive or unrighteous spouse in the next life if they don't want to be, it will be the righteous spouse's choice if they do or not. But if you love your spouse at all costs & will do anything to have them with you in the next life, Heavenly Father will show you the way, for there is a way. Though you must search out the answers & also pray about it to know how it works.

To those who want more references, I have provided quite a few references in the past on some threads & it does not seem to make much difference. Quotes alone don't teach it all unless the Spirit confirms it to you. And there are so many references I would have to post for someone to start to understand these things, it's not all in just a few quotes. It also would take alot of time to gather up all the talks & places I have learned these things. When we study things we don't all write down every reference we read. When I was learning these things I wasn't thinking about sharing them someday, just learning it for myself cause I wanted to know, so I didn't sit there & site every reading. I'm sorry I don't have time to go back & collect all the many references, but I know anyone can find out these things cause they weren't hard to find if you just search the Pres. of the Church on these issues. Apostles sometimes have differing opinions than Prophets, so you must stick with just Prophet's teaching until you understand the truth of a doctrine. Also, if you just pray about these things, the Spirit can tell you of it's truthfulness, even before you find the proof from Prophets.

Also, these things are so deep that to really discuss them in depth over the internet is not very easy or maybe even possible. So I just put out the truth of what I have learned & hope others will pray & study about it for themselves.

Studying these things is like putting many puzzle pieces together before you start to see the whole picture, one piece from this prophet & another piece from that scripture, etc., plus you must pray about it all & receive your own revelation & confirmation about it all. Most importantly, you have to want it to be true & sincerely be willing to live these principles & if you are they will be shown to you.

I have known many people with true love who understand these things. If we really love our spouse, no matter what they do, we will not resist the thought but look for any way to retain & save our spouse if need be & then we will be shown how it's possible.

Edited July 29, 2009 by foreverafter

[pam]

More references? I would like even one reference that concerns your theory of eternal marriage etc.

[pam]

To those who want more references, I have provided quite a few references in the past on some threads & it does not seem to make much difference. Quotes alone don't teach it all unless the Spirit confirms it to you. And there are so many references I would have to post for someone to start to understand these things, it's not all in just a few quotes. It also would take alot of time to gather up all the talks & places I have learned these things. When we study things we don't all write down every reference we read. When I was learning these things I wasn't thinking about sharing them someday, just learning it for myself cause I wanted to know, so I didn't sit there & site every reading. I'm sorry I don't have time to go back & collect all the many references, but I know anyone can find out these things cause they weren't hard to find if you just search the Pres. of the Church on these issues. Apostles sometimes have differing opinions than Prophets, so you must stick with just Prophet's teaching. Also, if you just pray about these things, the Spirit can tell you of it's truthfulness, even before you find the proof from Prophets.

You have said this before yet you fail to quote any references at all. I would hate to think an investigator would come here and take what you have to say verbatim.

[beefche]

I remember you said once, forever, that you read a quote by Brigham Young and he said....

That's not a quote. That is your recollection of something you read.

I want one real reference...from the scriptures, from the Ensign, from something on FAIR, something that we can turn to and review for ourselves.

[foreverafter]

I don't think it is asking too much to provide references when asked when it is questioned that information or doctrine could be incorrect.

I have hardly ever seen anyone on this site reference their opinions. I have read countless things posted by people on this site that I believe are false & incorrect doctrine. But I have never seen them asked to reference their opinions. Just because we don't understand something someone says, doesn't mean it's false. It should send us studying if we are curious. I have found very few people who have studied marriage issues very deeply. I don't know why though, because it is the most important topic in the Church, the one everything else hinges on. If we can't keep our covenants of marriage then everything else is of little consequence.

[pam]

I have hardly ever seen anyone on this site reference their opinions

Excuse me. You aren't citing them as opinions. Time and time again you have stated them as doctrine. You have said..such and such Prophet has stated this. If such and such Prophet has stated them...show references. Because I have yet to find in my searches ONE quote that you have mentioned.

[beefche]

They do upon request.

[tizzyk]

Guys...please if you need to discuss references start a new thread or something. Foreverafter...of course I want my husband with me no matter what...but everything I find seems to point to the fact that I will lose him if he refuses to keep his covenants. Like I said...God will sort things out He is almighty and He can do anything. I just don't know what will truly happen and that frightens me. But I have faith in the Lord...and I have hope. So thank you for your encouraging words and I hope you are right...but more I hope and pray that my husband will find his answers and strive to uphold his covenants...and then it won't matter if you are right or not because then we will both be striving for exaltation, and we will both obtain it depending on our diligence and faithfulness.

Again...please stop arguing about references here...thank you.

[pam]

Tizzy my apologies. I'm just very frustrated that wrong information has been presented once again and this time to someone that really needs the correct information.

[foreverafter]

.but more I hope and pray that my husband will find his answers and strive to uphold his covenants...and then it won't matter if you are right or not.

I sincerely hope your husband does to. I know you can find the answers you seek, the Spirit will tell you the truth of all things & True Love (for our spouse), the kind that never ends or gives up, really does cast out all fear.

Edited July 29, 2009 by foreverafter

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

If we can't keep our covenants of marriage then everything else is of little consequence.

Well if what you said before were true - then it doesn't matter if we keep our covenants because all it would take is one righteous person keeping their covenants to pull all the rest of us up into Celestial glory.

Apostles sometimes have differing opinions than Prophets, so you must stick with just Prophet's teaching until you understand the truth of a doctrine.

Apostles ARE prophets. And everything I've found so far on LDS.org, regardless of the author, agrees.

So far I have some good articles on marriage and the importance of keeping covenants, however I've found little on what the sealing power actually does (outside of authorizing an eternal marriage relationship). The articles I've found do talk a lot about how the sealing actually operates - how the covenants are made and then the Holy Spirit of Promise then confirms or approves the covenants when they are kept. Below is a list of articles I've found so far.

LDS.org - New Era Article - Celestial Marriage

LDS.org - Liahona Article - Celestial Marriage: Part 2

LDS.org - New Era Article - Q&A: Questions and Answers

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Marriage in the Lord’s Way, Part One

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Marriage in the Lord’s Way, Part Two

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Gift of the Holy Ghost—A Sure Compass

LDS.org - New Era Article - Q&A: Questions and Answers

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Temple Worship: The Source of Strength and Power in Times of Need

LDS.org - New Era Article - Q&A: Questions and Answers

Joseph Smith - Power to Seal on Earth and in Heaven - Readings

Some interesting notes:

The Holy Spirit of Promise seals more than just temple sealings - including all priesthood ordinances (baptism, confirmation, blessings, etc). The sealing power was used by Elijah to "seal the heavens", by Moses to bring forth water from the rock, and by Noah to curse Canaan and his house. Possibly by Nathan to curse David's house, however that's just a theory of mine that I haven't found any modern revelation to fully support yet.

As far as your marriage covenants go, Elder Cree-L Kofford has some details:

1. Individual covenants and blessings. Each of you will individually and separately make promises, commitments, and covenants with your Heavenly Father and will individually receive promises of blessings conditioned on your individual worthiness. The individual nature of these promises is such that even if one of you were to cease being obedient following your participation in the sealing ordinance and so lose the promises made to you, the other partner who remained faithful would continue to be eligible to receive the promised blessings.

These are the blessings that will be yours regardless of your husband's decisions and actions.

2. Joint covenants and blessings. The two of you jointly will make promises, commitments, and covenants with your Heavenly Father and will make covenants to receive each other as husband and wife. You then will jointly receive promises of blessings conditioned upon your joint faithfulness. The continued faithful obedience of both of you is essential if the promised blessings are to be received jointly. This is because the promises are made to you as one—that is, as a single unit consisting of two halves.

These are the blessings that you will NOT receive if your husband does not keep his covenants.

3. Joining in celestial marriage. This element qualifies you to live together as husband and wife under the laws of the land. It is here that you are united forever, becoming one flesh before the Lord and forming a new family unit that, if you are faithful and obedient, will last forever.

In this life, this is set unless he asks for a divorce. Eternally, this is like #2 and requires both of you to live up to your covenants.

4. Blessings for children born in the covenant. All children born to the two of you are born under the blessings of the sealing covenant; thus, it is common to say that your children are “born in the covenant.” They are entitled to blessings of the Abrahamic covenant, including:

Your children will be heirs of the below blessings regardless of your husbands (or YOUR) choices.

a. The gospel

b. The priesthood

c. Celestial marriage

d. Eternal life (see Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed. [1966], 13).

For details regarding which covenants and blessings go in which category - you'll just have to refer to your wedding day memories (or go back through and sit in on a vicarious sealing). The actual covenants and blessings are one of those "inside the temple only" discussions and so it's not appropriate to spill the beans on a forum.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

BINGO!....? Maybe.

Doctrine and Covenants 132 26 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God."

Then language of the verse can be a little confusing, but it's a pretty powerful implication.

[Misshalfway]

That is a powerful vs. Puff. TY. Gives us all reason to hope, not just for our family members but for ourselves too. It gives a lot of hope to rest in.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

There are caveats. Verse 27: "The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord."

Blasphemy against the HG, murder, and abiding not the law pretty much "break" the sealing. The law spoken of refers, I believe, to the "New and Everlasting Covenant" which is the full breadth of the Gospel (not just eternal marriage). So sealing doesn't negate the need for repentance or for righteous living.

:edit:

RE the law - it could also be reflexive, speaking specifically about the blasphemy and murder thing. My vote says it's more general than that.

Edited July 29, 2009 by puf_the_majic_dragon

[Tough Grits]

The follwing comes from the Primary 5: Doctrine and Covenants: Church History manual:

In 1843 Joseph taught some friends that the celestial kingdom is divided into three levels, or degrees. The highest degree is the only part of heaven where people will live with their families. The Prophet taught that a person must be married for eternity in the temple to obtain this highest degree of the celestial kingdom. These teachings are recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 131:1–4.

Make of this what you will:

1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Tough Grits

[tizzyk]

BINGO!....? Maybe.

Doctrine and Covenants 132 26 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God."

I'm not sure I understand this verse real well....so....this sounds like we will go through repentance process in spirit prision and then get exalted after the day of redemption. I'm a little confused.

Also...I thought that our exaltation was dependent on our repentance. I thought that of course we are not perfect and we won't be in this life, but if we continually strive to do righteous and follow the Lord and repent and we do the best we can the Lord will take care of the rest and we will receive exaltation. If, for example, my husband gives up on the church completely and never returns to it in this life...will he have a chance to repent in the next life and obtain the highest degree of the celestial kingdom (as long as I have done the same) and we have increase and become like Gods....or does he lose out and I be given to another as I progress (if I am worthy of such exaltation)??

I'm still confused. puf_the_magic_dragon I really appreciate your help in finding these sources...I plan on studying them...you are a big help...if you can help me understand too that would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!!!

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

I'm usually hesitant to offer interpretations of scripture because there's often a lot of room for different interpretations and I don't want to act like mine is more authoritative than anyone else's. The exception is usually when I have GA testimony to back me up :)

In any case... I'll go through this verse with the caveat that this is my interpretation and is not authoritative and *could* be dead wrong! - But I'm full of myself and think it's right

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment,"

To be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise seems to imply, from my readings, that after the sealing ordinance, the Holy Ghost comes and approves and confirms the sealing through the obedience of those people involved. This applies to every priesthood ordinance, not just marriage.

"...and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation;"

This tells me that a person can commit any sin other than murder and still be exalted

"...but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God."

However, if they commit sin, they will not have the protection of the Holy Ghost - which provides a HUGE protective shield against Satan and his minions.

The way the verse by itself is written seems to imply that by being sealed, a person is almost guaranteed exaltation. Because of the law of justice, this means that a person must be able to repent in the post-mortal life before the final judgement - which we know *can* happen since that is how vicarious temple ordinances work. However from verse 19 we can infer that we only have up until the second resurrection (at the end of the millenium prior to the final judgement) to perform this repentance. I seem to recall another D&C scripture that spoke of those who would be in this state having to suffer the consequences for their sins as if there had been no atonement - but I don't have the reference for that right now.

Verse 28 provides more information on the blasphemy and murder sins, in a way making them very much the same sin. These sins are completely unforgivable and there is no repentance in the spirit world for them. The part about abiding the law is a little ambiguous - it's not clear whether the phrase is referring to just the sins of blasphemy and murder or if it is referring to the entire covenant. If it refers only to the two unforgivable sins, that makes verse 27 very open-ended. If it refers to the entire "New and Everlasting Covenant" then it suggests that a certain measure of obedience and righteous living is still required in this life in order to receive the blessings of the covenant. I'm partial to the latter interpretation.

To summarize - it may be possible that a person who has been sealed in the temple could live a pretty sinful life and still receive exaltation by repenting for those sins in spirit prison before the final judgement. However, post-mortal repentance is no replacement for mortal righteousness.

And to finish off - I'll reiterate that this is all my own opinion and interpretation and is certainly open to debate (in fact I welcome it!) so don't take it as gospel truth.

[tizzyk]

So....it's entirely possible (if your interpretation is correct) that my husband will still be able to be with me in the afterlife even though he leaves the church and denies that the church is true....and as long as he doesn't murder anyone or (blasphemy against the HG) then he can repent in the afterlife and then join me? ........ and ......then what is the requirements of getting into the highest degree of the celestial kingdom where we have increase and become like Gods....if my husband is able to repent in the afterlife and join me will we be able to enter into that kingdom, or will we be stuck in a lower level of the celestial kingdom? Will we still be able to progress? If my husband comes to believe whole heartily that the LDS religion is a cult and not God's true religion, but lives a relatively good life without serious sins....does he get to join me in the celestial kingdom after going through the repentence process in spirit prison?

And I wasn't the people who had to suffer their sins as if there were no atonement were those who committed murder or committed blasphemy against the HG?

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Doctrine and Covenants 84

40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.

41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.

So no. For a woman, perhaps. But for a priesthood holder apparently not. The priesthood comes with significant additional covenants that apparently have a pretty weighty consequence for breaking them - the same conseqence as for blasphemers and murderers. That being - no forgiveness. If he has received the Melchisedec Priesthood and then leaves the church he's screwed unless he repents in this life. At least that's my take.

Please people feel free to discuss this more - I hate having a one sided scripture discussion.

[tizzyk]

Doctrine and Covenants 84

41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.

..... it seems to me that "and altogether turneth therefrom" is simply another reference to blasphemy of the Holy Ghost which is where a person knows of a surety that it is true but turns away from it and denies it. Because if my husband were simply to leave the church because he didn't receive a "full surety" of the truth of the gospel....then he is not committing that forgiveless sin otherwise he would be screwed anyway because there is no forgiveness for it "in this world or the world to come." So if he doesn't truly believe in the priesthood or the gospel and he leaves that is not the same as knowing for a surety that it is all true and still leaving and denying it's truth. Right? I don't know what do you guys think?

[tizzyk]

Anyway. Thank you all for posting. I have come to the conclusion that there will never really be a definitive answer. Our personal salvation is individually earned. There is always hope and I am just going to take it one step at a time. My husband and I will need to work through our problems and hopefully one day my husband will come around either in this life or the next. It's not my place to say one way or the other whether he will be with me when we die....but I can strive to do what is right and have faith that the Lord will take care of me and give me what I need ...and I know he won't take any blessings away from me if I am diligent and genuinely do my best at following His counsel.

I pray that the Lord can give me strength to endure to the end and return to Him. That is all I need to worry about right now. I need to do what I can, do my best, and repent when I fall short. I cannot be accountable for anyone else...and in the end the only person I can decide for is myself. Everyone has their free agency. I can only pray for others and hope things turn out for the best. I do not need to know for sure what will happen if this happens, or that happens.....I simply need to have faith and work on my own weaknesses as I strive to follow the Lord.

Thanks again everyone for your encouraging words and thoughts on the matter. You have all been great. :)