Only needing Christ for salvation

[Seanette]

Thought you guys were "all in one accord".

[prisonchaplain]

I'm a Buick guy, myself.

[Seanette]

[rameumptom]

They misunderstand that Christ "fulfilled" the law, He did not "abolish" the law.

.....

Works don't "earn" salvation. Christ won salvation for us. But, Christ gave us the criteria He will use to judge us by, because no unclean thing can swell with God.

Except for that "swell with God" point, I totally agree with the post.

[rameumptom]

PC,

I appreciate your viewpoints. I have discussed religion with enough pastors to know that they all have their personal views on a variety of subjects. Some actually do think that saying, "I believe!" is sufficent for salvation. Others require some or many works as evidence of one's faith/faithfulness.

Interestingly, some state that a basic belief in Christ is all that is needed to be saved, but then add additional requirements on what that means (must believe in Trinity, can't be Mormon, can't be liberal, etc). I find it interesting that they can say salvation comes only through belief, but in the next breath start delimiting that salvation according to their own views.

I appreciate your view of religion, and am certain that the people you serve will be blessed if they continue listening to your guidance and wisdom.

[Traveler]

Seanette...evangelicalism is broad indeed. And, truth be known, the "flavor" of churches can vary greatly, even within a town, even amongst the half dozen Assemblies of God churches that may be there. Suffice to say that the evangelicalism I may speak of is my own. .......

Just a note: one aspect of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is; that no matter where I travel throughout the world when I meet to worship on the Sabbath there is a "oneness" of doctrine and teaching. Though opinions of member saints may vary in individuals, what is taught as doctrine is beyond individual interpretation and culture. I have come to expect in congregations when I travel across town or across the world the same that I experience at home. Indeed I find the experience of meeting with other LDS worldwide most uplifting. I am sure that somewhere there is an acceptation - but I have not experienced it. Last Sunday my vacation was unexpectedly extended and I did not have the proper attire and what was still clean still had lingering smells of campfire smoke. Though I, my family and some accompanying friends looked the vagabond we were accepted and welcomed in a small ward in Wyoming and the experience was no less than what I have come to expect in the Salt Lake City area.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Ram, the irony is that those who list additional conditions would likely say that they are not "conditions" but "fruits." If you really and truly got saved, how could you possibly vote Democrat??? (I'm being facetious, though some are serious). Believe and be saved. But if you are truly saved you'll allow Christ to change you. It's a dicey business discerning someone else's salvation...but knowing folk by their fruits is biblical. Where is that line between reasonable discernment and judging? Perhaps another string for that sticky wicket?

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler, I thought that Wyoming was a subburb of Salt Lake City??? :-)

[Vort]

PC,

Earlier in this thread, I quoted Matthew 7:21-27 as a possible LDS response to the OP's question. I'm curious about evangelicals who (unlike you) believe in the "declare-Christ-and-you're-saved-no-matter-what!" doctrine: What is their take on these verses of scripture? Do you know?

[Traveler]

Traveler, I thought that Wyoming was a subburb of Salt Lake City??? :-)

Not quite - they speak a different language. For example they say yup instead of yes. Anyway I think it means the same thing.

The Traveler

[Justice]

Ram, the irony is that those who list additional conditions would likely say that they are not "conditions" but "fruits." If you really and truly got saved, how could you possibly vote Democrat??? (I'm being facetious, though some are serious). Believe and be saved. But if you are truly saved you'll allow Christ to change you. It's a dicey business discerning someone else's salvation...but knowing folk by their fruits is biblical. Where is that line between reasonable discernment and judging? Perhaps another string for that sticky wicket?

Christ teaches many times that you have to repent.

Doesn't that throw a wrinkle on the "just believe?"

Perhaps they meant more when they said "believe" than many do today? Perhaps they meant if you "believe" something then you will do it. If you don't do it then you really didn't believe. So, belief hinges on doing.

Right?

[Misshalfway]

I guess I am just wondering at another behavior I have seen and spoken lightly with a few people about. Why is it that people who were "saved" in 1976 feel a need to get baptized again or even "saved" again because of a great sermon they heard in 1992?

I have a friend who has gone thru this process, I think she said three times through out her life just depending on how she felt and they new congregation that she wanted to be a part of. And I am pretty sure she had been baptized more than once. I also talked to many people on my mission that had been baptized into different churches when they felt to sing the song of redeeming love. And why wouldn't they want to act on those feelings and be washed clean again? But wouldn't simple repentance be the cure? Is the act of recoversion or being resaved necessary in the case that someone had drifted from Christ?

I also understand that one does (or should) produce fruits that show they are a new creature. But I haven't met a human yet who looks like this picture....saved and only doing good works. I don't get how you can be "saved" and changed this way yet still remain a sinful, fallen, lesser creature.

Repentance... continual change... aren't they needed to keep the "saved" or conversion alive and working? And I know you, PC, believe that repentance is necessary. I am just not sure how you reconcile it.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Misshalfway

[Guest Believer_1829]

I guess I am just wondering at another behavior I have seen and spoken lightly with a few people about. Why is it that people who were "saved" in 1976 feel a need to get baptized again or even "saved" again because of a great sermon they heard in 1992?

I have a friend who has gone thru this process, I think she said three times through out her life just depending on how she felt and they new congregation that she wanted to be a part of. And I am pretty sure she had been baptized more than once. I also talked to many people on my mission that had been baptized into different churches when they felt to sing the song of redeeming love. And why wouldn't they want to act on those feelings and be washed clean again? But wouldn't simple repentance be the cure? Is the act of recoversion or being resaved necessary in the case that someone had drifted from Christ?

I also understand that one does (or should) produce fruits that show they are a new creature. But I haven't met a human yet who looks like this picture....saved and only doing good works. I don't get how you can be "saved" and changed this way yet still remain a sinful, fallen, lesser creature.

Repentance... continual change... aren't they needed to keep the "saved" or conversion alive and working? And I know you, PC, believe that repentance is necessary. I am just not sure how you reconcile it.

Moroni 6:1

1 And now I speak concerning baptism. Behold, elders, priests, and teachers were baptized; and they were not baptized save they brought forth fruit meet that they were worthy of it.

*** I find no problem with the concept of rebaptism, if fact it was practiced in the LDS Church until the 1920's***

[KrazyKay]

As I read through this thread I was reminded of a story that I heard one time about faith and how faith without works is dead. The story basically went that there was two guys who needed to mow their lawns. Both guys believed that their lawn mowers can mow their lawn. The first guy was all he did - just believed the lawn mower could mow the lawn, but he did not do any work. The second guy went out each week with the lawn mower, turned it on and mowed the lawn.

The first guy just believed the mower would mow the lawn but since he didn't do any work, his lawn was too high.

The second guy believed the mower would mow the lawn but understand the concept of faith without works is dead, so he did the work of starting the mower and pushing it around his yard to mow his lawn.

If we liken this story to Christ... Christ is the lawn mower and we are the person with the lawn mower. If we just believe that Christ will give us salvation, then we are like the first guy who believed his lawn mower would mow his yard but didn't do the work. But if we believe Christ will save us and we do the work he commanded in the scriptures and through modern prophets, then we will obtain salvation. Christ won't mow our lawns by himself. But he will with us doing out part of the work.

[Misshalfway]

Thanks Believer. I appreciate your words but I think you are missing the point of my question. If one is saved, then what would the purpose be in re-saving oneself ? It seems the answer I generally get is that this person wasn't truly saved to begin with. But this doesn't groove in my head. There is no doubt in my mind that my friend was as sincere as anyone could be at these moments of spiritual awakening in her life.

All men sin. Even the saved ones, right? All men are in need of repentance. I think it just doesn't make sense in my mind that if one is "saved" and heaven is secured, why is repentance anything more than a good idea? Multiple baptisms doesn't bother me. I wouldn't mind feeling that clean again. But then again, I mistake in that desire because I can be that clean every time I repent. You get what I am saying?

Perhaps being saved and being clean are independent ideas in the mind of a protestant. And this is why one can be saved AND need repentance at the same time. In this case, cleanliness isn't requisite to entering into the presence of the Lord. But then we have a biblical problem because God makes it pretty clear that no unclean thing can enter his presence. I guess I made the assumption that being "saved" and born again is the equivalent of being cleaned. In any case, either Christ changes the person not to sin or he cleans them so they have no stain from the sin. I guess I see a discrepancy in the saved by grace doctrine because in my mind there is a need for both. Or being saved is simple being converted. So, in this sense being changed or cleaned isn't required. It is only that one believes. Which I think brings us back to square one.

[prisonchaplain]

PC,

Earlier in this thread, I quoted Matthew 7:21-27 as a possible LDS response to the OP's question. I'm curious about evangelicals who (unlike you) believe in the "declare-Christ-and-you're-saved-no-matter-what!" doctrine: What is their take on these verses of scripture? Do you know?

They would likely argue that there are those who say they are Christians, but who do not know Jesus personally, have not, in sincerity, repented of their sins, and invited Jesus' into their hearts. They had a form of godliness, but did not have God.

[prisonchaplain]

Christ teaches many times that you have to repent.

Doesn't that throw a wrinkle on the "just believe?"

Perhaps they meant more when they said "believe" than many do today? Perhaps they meant if you "believe" something then you will do it. If you don't do it then you really didn't believe. So, belief hinges on doing.

Right?

Salvation itself produces works. But, believing in Jesus implies repentence. We often see "The ABCs of Salvation: Admit you're a sinner, Believe in Jesus, Confess your sins to God."

Additionally, we often say "Believe in Jesus as your Savior and Lord." The Lord part implies that when we believe we'll also follow, obey, submit, etc.

[prisonchaplain]

I guess I am just wondering at another behavior I have seen and spoken lightly with a few people about. Why is it that people who were "saved" in 1976 feel a need to get baptized again or even "saved" again because of a great sermon they heard in 1992?

I have a friend who has gone thru this process, I think she said three times through out her life just depending on how she felt and they new congregation that she wanted to be a part of. And I am pretty sure she had been baptized more than once. I also talked to many people on my mission that had been baptized into different churches when they felt to sing the song of redeeming love. And why wouldn't they want to act on those feelings and be washed clean again? But wouldn't simple repentance be the cure? Is the act of recoversion or being resaved necessary in the case that someone had drifted from Christ?

IMHO being rebaptized after a period of sin is very poor practice. Likewise with doing so every time one moves to a new church. If there is a serious season of sin after conversion, I generally recommend a serious recommitment. The person may even publically testify that they had rebelled, but now thanked God for protecting them and preserving them

I also understand that one does (or should) produce fruits that show they are a new creature. But I haven't met a human yet who looks like this picture....saved and only doing good works. I don't get how you can be "saved" and changed this way yet still remain a sinful, fallen, lesser creature. Repentance... continual change... aren't they needed to keep the "saved" or conversion alive and working? And I know you, PC, believe that repentance is necessary. I am just not sure how you reconcile it.

We speak of "progressive sanctification." God is working himself into me, with me, allowing for my agency. Over time I become more and more like him. Ocassional I give into temptation, I rebel, or I just don't think through what I am doing. I take two steps back, before taking three forward. 1 Cor. 13 speaks of a day when "that which is perfect shall come." It refers to Jesus. And when he arrives, we, his bride, will become spotless, without spot or wrinkle. For truly we have been washed in the blood of the Lamb.

So, I reconcile it by saying my salvation is already, but not yet. Jesus already accomplished it, I am living in it, but the fulness of it is yet to come.

[AnthonyB]

PC,

We often see "The ABCs of Salvation: Admit you're a sinner, Believe in Jesus, Confess your sins to God."

If your willing to admit that a faithful "faith" might include confess, repent and believe, why could it also not include baptism as an expression of that faith?

[prisonchaplain]

Anthony, confession, repentence and belief are prerequisites to a meaningful reception of salvation. Baptism, perhaps is like ignition--it makes the gift operational, or productive. Does that make sense?

[Justice]

Salvation itself produces works. But, believing in Jesus implies repentence. We often see "The ABCs of Salvation: Admit you're a sinner, Believe in Jesus, Confess your sins to God."

Additionally, we often say "Believe in Jesus as your Savior and Lord." The Lord part implies that when we believe we'll also follow, obey, submit, etc.

What happens if you belive and don't do? What does that mean? Is it possible?

James 1:

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain.

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

I can quote hundreds of scriptures with this theme. Those who hear and then do the word of God are like a wise man who built his house on a rock; Jesus' answer to "who is my neighbor?" He didn't answer who is a neighbor, He answered who is being a neighbor. The Prodigal Son, Matthew 25 when Christ likens the Kingdom of God to 3 parables.. all those who entered the Kingdom were doing, those who didn't were not doing... on and on...

I think it's a cop-out to say "God saves you then you do good works." Christ, not any Apostle, ever implied that. They taught to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Yes, it's Christ's works that brought Salvation to man... but man must repent and be born again in order to gain eternal life... not gain eternal life and then be born again.

[prisonchaplain]

What happens if you belive and don't do? What does that mean? Is it possible?

No. Faith without works is dead. It's not faith.

I think it's a cop-out to say "God saves you then you do good works." Christ, not any Apostle, ever implied that. They taught to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Well, we do and fail to do good works our whole lives. What I contend is that salvation does result in good works. We don't perform to appease God and merit salvation. We do so out of gratitude and obedience, and in the power of our salvation. We're saved because of grace, because of God's love, because of his desire that we be reconciled to Him. Not because he thinks we're so cool, so righteous, so awesome that He wants to partner up with us.

Yes, it's Christ's works that brought Salvation to man... but man must repent and be born again in order to gain eternal life... not gain eternal life and then be born again.

I agree...eternal life is a product of being born again.

[rameumptom]

We need to remember that the beliefs of Evangelical and Protestant churches are varied when it comes to salvation. PC can give an answer for his congregation, but it may not exactly apply to the next church. Or it could be very different from another.

Some believe "once saved, always saved", but not all believe it. I would suppose that PC is in the latter group, believing we can fall from grace. PC seems more Arminian than Calvin, as well.

He sees works as necessary outward demonstration of our inner faith, the fruits of the spirit. Meanwhile, there are many evangelicals who believe that the simple words, "I believe" is sufficent to be saved.

LDS belief, in many ways, holds all these premises. It takes a mere belief in Christ to be saved from the 2nd death, Outer Darkness, and enter into the Telestial Kingdom. But the works are needed in addition to faith to develop our faithfulness, and to perfect us in Christ. The more we embrace Christ and become like him, the greater the reward.

I don't see it as two lawn mowers, but as a big buffet restaurant. Some refuse to go inside and eat, as it doesn't look palatable from the window. Others will go in and grab the nearest food available. Others will go inside patiently, and search for the best meal available.

"Work we must do, but the lunch is free" (Hugh Nibley). We must go to the buffet and eat, which is work. And if we're more diligent, we can find the buffet table with the steaks and lobster (or put in your favorite gourmet food here), rather than eating the hot dogs and chips at the front.

[Justice]

I guess what I'm saying is it's a growing process, not a one time event. Christ's works were a one time event, but we grow line upon line, here a little and there a little. Becoming saved requires us to become a man of God, seeking His will. This doesn't happen magically. This doesn't happen the moment we "accept Christ." This only comes after a lifetime of purging our desires. As we believe Christ is the way, we follow that path from small things to bigger things. He grants us power to become by blessing our actions. Eventually we change even our thoughts and desires. This change, or being born again, usually doesn't happen in one instant.

These works, or this being a neighbor, is something we learn to choose over time. If we couldn't work until after we are saved, then the work could never happen, because faith requires putting into practice Christ's teachings. We must do that before we can be born again.

[prisonchaplain]

Ram, you pegged me correctly. However, even those who believe in "Once Saved Always Saved," historically expected good works. Ministers in that tradition would say that if one were of the Elect, if they were truly predestined for salvation, then their lives would show it. IMHO, those who twist "once saved always saved" (a Reader's Digest version of 'perserverence of the Saints') to say that mere public confession of faith is absolute certainty of salvation have short-circuited, even mutated a system of theological belief that, if not completely accurate (my view), was at least sophisticated and demanding of holiness.