Creation from nothing - problematic

[prisonchaplain]

We can start there. As I said, I am attempting to look at this logically also, and not just believe something because that's what everyone always believed. The people of Christ's day who were "God's people" had developed many false notions about God. It's possible it's happened again.

Let me start backwards. You don't want to believe just because that's what everyone has always believed. And yet, I'd contend that that's an excellent starting point. Because, if that everyone includes Moses, author of Genesis, then we understand that the prophet believed creation was out of nothing. The article I linked did suggest that the early Church held creation out of nothing as orthodoxy. Most of the creeds made mention of it. Additionally, it's my understanding that Orthodox Judaism also holds to creation out of nothing. So, to argue for eternal matter is to suggest that the Great Apostasy started long before the Apostles.

Thus far I've not disproved your postion, but rather showed that indeed, most everyone does believe that if there was creation, it was out of nothing.

I just want you to show me where it says that in the Bible.

And answer, Why did it take God 6 periods of time to bring all things into existence? Can He only bring something He creates into existence in stages?

I'm not sure why it matters. God could have created the universe in a nanosecond. He chose to have Moses write it down as having taken a week. We also know why God revealed it that way. As instruction for us to take a day off each week to rest and glorify God. If we read into God's purposes more than what it clearly revealed, we engage in speculation.

Why use the words "move" and "divide" in the creation account? Those are words that require existing element to act upon.

Perhaps these words are used so we can picture it? Additionally, could it be that God speaks the world into existence, beginning with light (energy), and then builds upon his creation, by using that which he first spoke into existence? What we disagree about is whether matter is eternal, or whether God initiated matter. There's no doubt that once there was matter, God used it to create further.

BTW, is it your understanding that God cannot create matter out of nothing? After all, do we not create "out of nothing" when we imagine?

[Justice]

No. We do not create matter when we imagine. We do not create living breathing beings when we imagine.

The argument has been made that if God "imagined" us into existence, it doesn't hold to His character to "imagine into existence" living, breathing life that will be spend eternity in torment.

If you give a serious study and prayer to the first 10 verses, it is clear the water existed before God created anything, and that God moved and divided matter to create.

I see no logic that requires God to lie and tell us He moved and divided when it's perfectly within our understanding to believe He created all things out of nothing. Heck, most believe that way anyway. So, why not just say the truth?

I believe the words describe a process of creation, and that process used matter that God did not create. It's in the text. I don't believe "creation out of nothing" was common church doctrine during the time of the Apostles. It may have been by 400 AD, or even 300 AD. What the Church believed is clearly taught in Genesis, and I get no sense of creating from nothing. I don't see a phrase or word that even suggests it, just a false understanding of the words... an understanding that doesn't even fit the test.

I find it difficult to believe that Hebrew teaching was "from nothing" when the very word used for create in their language means to "shape, fashion, or form." I have heard this same definition from many sources, including a well studied Jewish man I know. He claims the ancient Hebrew belief is not "from nothing."

Edited August 6, 2009 by Justice

[Justice]

It's clear our interpretations are different.

We may never agree.

I still respect your understanding and opinion on the matter, however, because I respect you as a person.

I just wish you would give the first 10 verses another very close, in-depth study... using my post as reference. :)

[Moksha]

In any case, it is now known that there is a tremendous amount of water not too far down in the earth. If the crust were to be "broken up" and the water came out, it most certainly could flood the whole earth.

Even if one includes the aquifers, glaciers and beaver dams, there is still insufficient water.

God can materialize things from "nothing," like the bread and fishes, or Himself in a closed locked room. But, it presupposes there is element or matter He can use to organize with.

You may be right. Perhaps via cold fusion.

:)

[Traveler]

A couple of things I think are important in this discussion.

1. When did the creation of the earth take place? This question has continued to plague religious thinkers holding to traditional Christian concepts of creation. There is overwhelmingly stunning and ever growing evidence that even the creation of human life most likely included pre-existing life forms and evolution. There is evidence that life has existed for billions of years and yet human life as we understand mankind from a religious standpoint has existed for little over 6,000 years. If we consider that G-d, without any real effort, creates from nothing we are left with confusion concerning the importance of the creation of man in the general scheme of relationships of time and space allotted for man in the universe. That G-d would sacrifice his son for life forms that have no real importance in space and time is so flawed that it becomes unbelievable and unreasonable.

2. What is the meaning of existence? When we consider what is real and what exist; there is, in my thinking, great problems when we start with the premises that nothing of G-d in reality exist or belongs anywhere in this universe. I see no difference from saying that G-d does not exist or saying that G-d has transcended existence. I believe such thinking and doctrine to be a complete denial of Jesus Christ as G-d and the son of G-d. It is my understanding and unwavering belief that G-d does exist and lives amongst us as a resurrected being and that he lived once among us as a being capable of death. He is not somewhere else – he is here. Even more important to me is the LDS doctrine that we, as physical and dimensional creatures (as we are now and as we will be in the resurrection) are destined to be with G-d and where he is. Those that think that they can imply that G-d does not exist here and that G-d does not belong here among us in one breath and then claim that we can be “one” with G-d in another breath are seriously flawed in their thinking. If I must explain why – it is going to be very difficult to continue an intelligent conversation.

The Traveler

[Hemidakota]

Greetings fellow board members:

Many years ago I became involved in a debate with an atheist concerning the existence of G-d. I learned a great deal from that debate. One of the arguments my atheist friend used; I found especially interesting. It concerns what we have learned in science, the concept of creation from nothing and the account of creation in scripture.

Before I begin let me preface my remarks with a reminder of the conflicts that have existed between science and religion. Most noted was the conflict that arose over Galileo’s work concerning tides based on a sun center rather than an earth center solar system. Anyway that is how we see it now but at the time it was an argument concerning the center of the universe and the importance of G-d’s creating the earth and man’s dominion on earth. The point here is that certain religious doctrines that are assumed by the Christian religious community come in direct conflict with the reality of science. Either we must abandon the religious doctrine, scientific achievements or both to resolve the conflicts. It is the unwillingness of many within the Christian Religious community to address these conflicts in a reasonable manner that has been most of the reason many in our time have declared themselves atheist.

Since the restoration of Christ’s church and his prophets, science has come into conflict concerning the beliefs concerning creation from nothing. Einstein established several very important scientific realities. Two are most important in the creation discussion. They are: 1. That there is a direct relationship of light, energy and matter and 2. That the dimensions of our 3 dimensional space is both curved and expanding. If you believe Einstein established these two principles of reality (among other things) then whether or not you realize it – You are in conflict with the doctrine of creation from nothing.

Here is the problem – If G-d created all things from nothing light could not have been the first creation. In essence, according to Einstein light cannot exist without a place to exist or dimensional space. In other words the first step in a creation from nothing would be dimensional space into which “things”, including light, photon particles or waves, could exist. It is interesting to me that science has proven that dimensional space is expanding or in other words – being created. But the scripture account does not reference this simple truth nor is there any possible accounting in the doctrine of creation from nothing.

In contrast is the doctrine of creation that was restored through a modern prophet of the restoration that preceded Einstein’s contributions. Here we learn that in the beginning that space and unorganized matter already existed. We learn that there was matter unorganized that existed in dimensional space and that the creation began by organizing that matter within the already existing dimensional space. The first step of this creation was to “organize” light from that unorganized matter. No conflict with truths proven in science.

This simple restored truth allows for the advancement of science and mankind to learn a simple truth that G-d is really testified of in all things today as in times past. But only correct concepts of G-d and his methods are testified of in all things. Without correct concepts of G-d and his methods there is conflict in the finding or testaments of things as we become more knowledgeable of truths of science. Thus the truth sets us free – free from incorrect concepts and interpretations.

The Traveler

Traveler, conflicts will always occur with those who do not seek GOD first in their lives. This has been a problem since Cain rebellious nature in the beginning.

What is failing principle of history in the past is the level of belief of a apostated group of people who seek to push their own agenda of limited learning or claimed wisdom of the earth and the universe. The true ‘Gospel of Christ’, which I believe encompasses all knowledge, taught eternal truths concerning this universe to the deluge prophets and later down to those who desired the same from GOD. Amazing how much was changed in such a short time and still, it is seen today by the same mentality of people by desperately trying to prove the Big Bang by mathematics.

You may discover in a few older scrolls, even if it was rewritten thousands of time from one hand to the next, some startling truths from Adam down to prophets prior to Christ, had knowledge of the planetary movements to the location where GOD resides.

What is light? Matter organized. Or simply put, matter containing intelligence. Now, even matter unorganized was not always present in this universe, though the finite expanse it is, was brought forth during an exchange between one states to the next. If this is a truism, there is life intelligence greater than our own; as there is more than just GOD that resides in this state. And who is the author of chaos? Simply put, GOD! GOD not only controls organized matter but unorganized matter, which one could look with spiritual eyes, will find nothing but chaos or disorder.

Returning back to the concept of the Big Bang, trying to merge this with Gospel of Christ, is trying to compare an apple with a lemon. The principle itself is not correct and hopefully during the reign of the Savior, this will be revisited with correction. Still, speculation persists from one end of the globe to other on what happen.

If I compare a woman's ovulary egg and conception of insertion of a sperm entering into this filled expanse of life given mater of material to the concept of the Big Bang, what happens to this small expanse of space in nine months? Such a small thing but expanse is a continuous state until it reaches its destined size – human form. Yet, there are kingdoms even in the smallest regions of life with a simple sperm or an ovulary egg; as there are many kingdoms above us. Even, if we could look into a developing neuron when it first forming in the egg, it grows on the same magnitude as the child to adult but it has dimensional borders size it cannot cross. This is matter organized...whom is organizing this matter and controlling it at the lowest levels? This is startling to scientists today as they watch a few Rat neurons dropped onto a silicon wafer and watch them connect to each other in forming together in unison with capacity of giving and learning basic AI movements demonstrated in a university/government AI application.

The principle of creating and by what mechanism lies in the term called Honor is the answer. Again, why would Lucifer only ask for such a little thing? :) Edited August 6, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Traveler]

Traveler, conflicts will always occur with those who do not seek GOD first in their lives. This has been a problem since Cain rebellious nature in the beginning.

What is failing principle of history in the past is the level of belief of a apostated group of people who seek to push their own agenda of limited learning or claimed wisdom of the earth and the universe. The true ‘Gospel of Christ’, which I believe encompasses all knowledge, taught eternal truths concerning this universe to the deluge prophets and later down to those who desired the same from GOD. Amazing how much was changed in such a short time and still, it is seen today by the same mentality of people by desperately trying to prove the Big Bang by mathematics.

You may discover in a few older scrolls, even if it was rewritten thousands of time from one hand to the next, some startling truths from Adam down to prophets prior to Christ, had knowledge of the planetary movements to the location where GOD resides.

What is light? Matter organized. Or simply put, matter containing intelligence. Now, even matter unorganized was not always present in this universe, though the finite expanse it is, was brought forth during an exchange between one states to the next. If this is a truism, there is life intelligence greater than our own; as there is more than just GOD that resides in this state. And who is the author of chaos? Simply put, GOD! GOD not only controls organized matter but unorganized matter, which one could look with spiritual eyes, will find nothing but chaos or disorder.

Returning back to the concept of the Big Bang, trying to merge this with Gospel of Christ, is trying to compare an apple with a lemon. The principle itself is not correct and hopefully during the reign of the Savior, this will be revisited with correction. Still, speculation persists from one end of the globe to other on what happen.

If I compare a woman's ovulary egg and conception of insertion of a sperm entering into this filled expanse of life given mater of material to the concept of the Big Bang, what happens to this small expanse of space in nine months? Such a small thing but expanse is a continuous state until it reaches its destined size – human form. Yet, there are kingdoms even in the smallest regions of life with a simple sperm or an ovulary egg; as there are many kingdoms above us. Even, if we could look into a developing neuron when it first forming in the egg, it grows on the same magnitude as the child to adult but it has dimensional borders size it cannot cross. This is matter organized...whom is organizing this matter and controlling it at the lowest levels? This is startling to scientists today as they watch a few Rat neurons dropped onto a silicon wafer and watch them connect to each other in forming together in unison with capacity of giving and learning basic AI movements demonstrated in a university/government AI application.

The principle of creating and by what mechanism lies in the term called Honor is the answer. Again, why would Lucifer only ask for such a little thing? :)

Nice post -- It looks like you have done some excellent thinking. The Big Bang and its association with creation is a most interesting thing to explorer. Keep in mind that thought the Big Bang changed many things the stuff before and after was in not more or less – just different. If we see the Big Bang as a collapse of something disorganized into something more organized then we are beginning to see an obvious violation of the second law of thermal dynamics - unless something else is acting that is not being taken into account. Even the most hard core scientist agrees that something critical is missing from our understanding of the universe’s beginning. But no scientist or rational thinker that I know feels or believes that there was nothing.

Most realize that if nothing else that G-d used his infinite power (that did indeed exist prior) as a source – thus there was something from which all things have source. And we do know from Einstein that matter and light are different components of energy – or should I say “power”. But there is the rub – so many religious thinkers are unwilling to accept that what is can be connected to what was and if such a thing were to be that G-d would not be G-d and they could not and will not worship him. And thus I see no difference between an atheist and someone that believes in creation from nothing – except that the atheist has looked behind the curtain and realized that there is indeed something – and that something from which all things that are is as eternal as G-d. And the believer in creation from nothing says –if that is true then there is no G-d.

The Traveler

[Justice]

A great thinker once said, "If there ever was a time when there was nothing, there would still be nothing."

I happen to concur with this addage. It takes long and deep thought to see the pure logic involved.