Canadian health care will kill you

[talisyn]

The FACT is only 5% of the population is involuntarily uninsured. Do your homework and quit listening to the left's talking points.

So what I get from this is when I worked for Wal-Mart I had the option of spending 1/2 my take-home pay on insurance for my daughter and myself, leaving $200/month for rent/car/utilities? I guess I did have that option....

[Prodigal_Son]

So what I get from this is when I worked for Wal-Mart I had the option of spending 1/2 my take-home pay on insurance for my daughter and myself, leaving $200/month for rent/car/utilities? I guess I did have that option....

If you were the only income in the home, no doubt you qualified for Medicaid. If there was another income, then the whole argument's out the window.

[talisyn]

If you were the only income in the home, no doubt you qualified for Medicaid. If there was another income, then the whole argument's out the window.

I live in Idaho, I qualified for nothing. Seriously. And there are a lot of people in that situation, either they don't have any kids or not enough (me) to qualify for various programs. The world is a scary place when you don't have a way to protect yourself.

I wonder if that's why Pres. Obama is so keen on universal health care. His g.parents may have been comfortable but his mom wasn't when she was taking him all over the world. Kids remember when their parents cannot afford things like medicine

Back to topic....Canada healthcare rocks. But I am reminded of a Monty Python skit where they are all in a hospital in England waiting to be seen when a private patient comes in and it was like a visit from royalty. I pay $3000/year insurance premiums and get 1 dr. visit co-pay of 20% per year, any other visit is coming totally out of my wallet. I cannot imagine how Pres. Obama's healthcare plan could possibly be worse.

[Prodigal_Son]

I live in Idaho, I qualified for nothing. Seriously. And there are a lot of people in that situation, either they don't have any kids or not enough (me) to qualify for various programs. The world is a scary place when you don't have a way to protect yourself.

Then come on south to Zion! Things are great here in ye-olde-mormon-bubble.

I wonder if that's why Pres. Obama is so keen on universal health care. His g.parents may have been comfortable but his mom wasn't when she was taking him all over the world.

I think that's a bit altruistic. Personally, I suspect something just a bit more nefarious.

Back to topic....Canada healthcare rocks.

Well, maybe instead of moving south you should consider heading North, eh? Nevermind. I don't know what I'm talking aboot.

[KrazyKay]

If you were the only income in the home, no doubt you qualified for Medicaid. If there was another income, then the whole argument's out the window.

I don't know what his situation was when he was working at Walmart... but I can tell you of my situation with my husband not working or bouncing from part time job to part time job. He has diabetes. Right now I don't work as I go to school full time. We do not have insurance for ourselves or our 9 year old daughter. I have tried and tried and tried countless times to get medicaid for her and for us, every single time we have been denied. It makes me so angry that they say "You have too much money to qualify" when our only income is $1,000 from my parents for utilities and food... our mobile home is paid off and on land we own (not a lot of land, but some land still), and our truck is paid off. But we don't qualify for medicaid? Oh, and we are US citizens, born in the states. But we have a neighbor who is a legal alien from Colombia and that whole family is on medicaid - that dad works at McDonalds and Walmart full time and the mom is a stay at home mom. Their mobile home is also paid off but they do have a car loan. You can see how I view the US government and how this subject is sensitive to me.

Ok, I'll get off my soap box and let this thread get back to talking about Cananda's health care.

I do wonder, if I move my family to Canada, we would probably be a lot better off as far as health care, but as far as income, we will probably still be in the same boat we are in now until I finish college. Then I would have to deal with finding a job in Canada with a US B.S. degree. lol.

[Prodigal_Son]

HERE'S A VIDEO with a Latter-Day Saint (you might recognize him) and a Brit. Not EXACTLY Canadian, but Canada is part of the conversation - and we continuously lump our comparisons of the UK and Canada together.

[Just_A_Guy]

Ummm.... bankruptcy is bad? Or is it Ok now in the ol USA? No wonder you can print up so much cash and be OK with it, but that's another issue.

A simple "I don't know" would have sufficed.

At any rate: the concept of bankruptcy is that a court will look at the numbers and have you pay as much as is reasonably possible under your circumstances, and--mirabile dicu!--it will forgive the rest of your outstanding debt.

There are only three reasons this could be considered "bad":

1) It kind of hoses the creditors. But judging by your other posts, I don't think you're that concerned about the rights of people who are owed money.

2) To some degree, it gives the poor person something for nothing. Again, you're clearly not opposed to this concept.

3) It will make it harder for the bankrupt to incur new debt for the next eight to ten years, until the bankruptcy goes off his credit report. But frankly, if you're one of those people that insists we should keep loaning more and more money to people who are demonstrably incapable of paying it back--that kind of undercuts your pontificating about the US's financial woes, doesn't it?

Actually, I guess there's a fourth reason: "bankruptcy" is a scary term that a lot of people don't fully understand, and makes a wonderful bogeyman when discussing public policy.

Still haven't convinced you? OK. If bankruptcy is so bad, please explain to me why one of the first Illinois residents to declare bankruptcy under the Federal Bankruptcy Act of 1841 was Joseph Smith (followed closely by his brother Hyrum).

Edited August 8, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[joel99]

As much as I don't want to wade into the rhetoric - here goes...

I've lived in two Canadian provinces and three US states and the care I receive here in BC is the best. I have numerous health issues from birth so I am not the "normal" health care user - I'm the living "stress test" of any system. :)

You have to remember that in Canada each province runs its own health insurance system. This means the health coverage can vary slightly from province to province. The federal government provides the standards but does not actually "run" it. The thing to remember is that we have the population of California but in a country larger than the US. This means that you see people in border areas sometimes travelling to the US for care - the government insurance authorizing and paying for this. I've experienced something akin to this myself once when I was gravely ill while living in the US - my Canadian doctor sent authorization to the provincial insurance which the hospital in turn billed for my treatment.

Here is some background which may help:

Canada Health Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have never had to wait an unreasonable amount of time for care or in seeing a specialist. This includes care related to heart, lungs, spine, etc. and includes some pretty major surgery. No "pre-existing condition" issues like I had in the US and no limits on the doctors I could see (or limits on switching doctors). For my family my government insurance premium (~$100 a month) is actually paid by my employer - who also pays my "extended" health coverage.

Extended medical insurance is for items not fully covered by the provincial system - for example for prescription drug coverage we have a "Fair Pharmacare" system here. This means that everyone has a maximum out of pocket expense which is based on their income. For me, my extended coverage via work covers 90% of that out of pocket expense. More info here:

Fair PharmaCare Information

I think comparisons of our system to what's being proposed in the US is pointless. They have very little in common.

[Guest missingsomething]

I'll just put out there that I'm Mormon, registered as a democrat, tend to agree with liberal politics more than I do with conservative, and I work in the health care industry.

Man I KNEW I was a good fit for your other wife!

[bcguy]

im in bc, very happy with my health care employed or not! But we have or will have some cut backs. Do not know how this will affect me.

[Charlyc]

For my family my government insurance premium (~$100 a month) is actually paid by my employer - who also pays my "extended" health coverage.

Extended medical insurance

I think comparisons of our system to what's being proposed in the US is pointless. They have very little in common.

"Extended medical insurance' is really another term for private cover in two-tier systems, by the way.

I'd say you were actually comparing systems when you mentioned "pre-existing condition" issues faced in the US, or limits on switching doctors etc. But what is a real shame is that people in the US don't seem to be capable of comparing their system with other countries' systems in a non-partisan way; they always seem to want to find what is better in the US system first and then why the GOP set it up well or the dems don't get it ... And when someone pops up, like that women in the very first entry here saying that Canadian health care will kill you (bizarre by the way) then partisans jump at that to decry Obama's current efforts to make things better. Amazing! If only they would try to improve things....but then again they think they have the best system in the world!!! Ignorance is bliss.

[Charlyc]

A simple "I don't know" would have sufficed.

There are only three reasons this could be considered "bad":

1) It kind of hoses the creditors. But judging by your other posts, I don't think you're that concerned about the rights of people who are owed money.

2) To some degree, it gives the poor person something for nothing. Again, you're clearly not opposed to this concept.

3) It will make it harder for the bankrupt to incur new debt for the next eight to ten years, until the bankruptcy goes off his credit report. But frankly, if you're one of those people that insists we should keep loaning more and more money to people who are demonstrably incapable of paying it back--that kind of undercuts your pontificating about the US's financial woes, doesn't it?

Total rubbish, ridiculous!!! Your ethics are way off arguing that bankruptcy is petty.

[Charlyc]

HERE'S A VIDEO with a Latter-Day Saint (you might recognize him) and a Brit. Not EXACTLY Canadian, but Canada is part of the conversation - and we continuously lump our comparisons of the UK and Canada together.

This is very important, key to what the problem is -the disinformation that the right (obviously most Mormons too) preach. I actually like Beck. I see him here on foxnews and like his comments on money printing etc but this video is just misleading. For example they compare the minimum public care available free for all without even mentioning private care, the insurance one can pay for better service in any two-tier system. For example he put up a note that Australians wait an average of 4 months for elective surgery...which is true but that's free elective surgery in a free public hospital. If one pays for private cover, as I do with $259per month!, there isn't any waiting time at all plus that elective surgery is done in a very comfortable 5-star private hospital. Britain has a similar system as #26 notes and there are plenty of articles, even wikipedia, to show this. But Beck prefers this totally misleading interview. Again, just a shame, and more right-wing brainwashing.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Charlyc

[Prodigal_Son]

...the disinformation that the right (obviously most mormons too) preach...

Thanks, I appreciate you pointing that out. I absolutely HATE spin.

That being said, please don't point the finger at the right, as though the left doesn't do the EXACT same thing: READ HERE.

[Charlyc]

Thanks, I appreciate you pointing that out. I absolutely HATE spin.

That being said, please don't point the finger at the right, as though the left doesn't do the EXACT same thing: READ HERE.

yes the left can be just as bad at times. although i don't think that article is accurate, the left still aren't all innocent bystanders. just another sign that american is dividing into two very distinct separate factions. question is when will they actually come to blows.

[Prodigal_Son]

...although i don't think that article is accurate...

What do you feel is inaccurate?

[Moksha]

What do you feel is inaccurate?

Maybe because the wrong assumptions were made for every single one of the calculations.

Can anyone remember what that old computer acronym GIGO stood for?

[Prodigal_Son]

Maybe because the wrong assumptions were made for every single one of the calculations.

Do expound, oh wise one.

[Moksha]

Ok.

1. Did you know most illegals do not even have W-2's because they are paid under the table. What proof are you offering to even suggest that 9.7 million illegal aliens have even been added into this total.

2. It is crazy to try to chop younger adult out of the mix of the uninsured. If they have no health coverage they have no health coverage. In Utah, many young adults are newly married and begining to multiply and replenish the Earth. Hospitals and Doctors want money for OB care and delivery. For God's sake think of the children!!!

3. Eliminating people from the list because they are between jobs or between insurances is goofy. When you're unemployed your family still can get sick and will need medical care.

4. Taking all these crazy and unjustified eliminations then dividing them by three hundred to arrive at a number that sounds better that the real thing is simply manipulating the unquestioning masses.

5. Doesn't make me a smarty pants to see through this bogus calculation.

:)

[Guest]

I stopped reading at Page 5. There are just too many nutcase posts here.

Here is my 2 cents worth at 4AM:

1.) The Taxpayer cannot save EVERYBODY. Heck, they can't even save all americans, let alone illegals! GROW UP PEOPLE! You sound like my 7 year old... I want to visit my grandmother in Houston. Sorry, baby, I don't have money. BUT Grandma wants us to visit and I want to visit and it's going to be good for grandma and me... sorry, baby, I don't have money. Well, get money from the ATM!

2.) America is BETTER than any country. If you don't think so, then that's why you're NOT in America and therefore has no vote on this issue. So why is it a surprise that they don't want to be like anybody else? Other countries... newsflash... there are tons of countries out there that are doing just fine doing it the American way (before the advent of the welfare state and runaway medical malpractice lawsuits)... for example. The Philippines. My point is, Canadian healthcare is good for Canadians, British healthcare is good for Britain, Australian care is good for Australia, and they do not necessarily imply they are good for Americans! And, you Americans, stop bashing their healthcare. It works for them.

3.) The great thing about America is you can go to the movies and order small, medium, large, or jumbo popcorn with or without butter with a small, medium, large, or jumbo Coca-Cola. And when I say small I mean really tiny, and when I say jumbo, I mean JUMBO that can feed a small army. You have the option for maximum health or a nudge at a coronary. Unless you change what it means to be American, there is no way in hades you can make a success out of a nationalized healthcare coverage!

4.) The bad thing about America... substandard education, social security nightmare, etc... are all provided by government or regulated by government. Let's add one for the road, why don't we...

All you non-Americans (me excluded since I actually live in America) should probably just lie low on this topic because you will never understand...

Edited August 10, 2009 by anatess

[Guest]

Ok.

1. Did you know most illegals do not even have W-2's because they are paid under the table. What proof are you offering to even suggest that 9.7 million illegal aliens have even been added into this total.

Moshka, trust me on this one - I'm Filipino, you won't believe how many illegal Filipinos are in this country too - just because you don't have a W-2 doesn't mean you did not touch an American system that garnered you a place in the census. The illegals just know which ones they can touch safely and which ones will earn them a direct flight home.

2. It is crazy to try to chop younger adult out of the mix of the uninsured. If they have no health coverage they have no health coverage. In Utah, many young adults are newly married and begining to multiply and replenish the Earth. Hospitals and Doctors want money for OB care and delivery. For God's sake think of the children!!!

There is a big difference between having no health insurance coverage BY CHOICE and having no health insurance coverage but need one. Just because you don't have health insurance coverage doesn't mean you can't afford health care. Most of the independent kids (not covered by their parents) in my college opted out of health coverage - even the el cheapo one offered by the school... and that included me... it was much cheaper to save up for that rainy day than it was to keep paying out insurance premiums and still have to pay deductibles when you are young and healthy. But hey, if you give me one for free, heck, why not? I'll just make sure I don't ever make enough money so I have to get taxed for it...

3. Eliminating people from the list because they are between jobs or between insurances is goofy. When you're unemployed your family still can get sick and will need medical care.

The reason they are uninsured between jobs is because the current healthcare regulations married health insurance to employers. It is drastically super expensive to get the same individual coverage as is offered by an employer. Therefore, people in between jobs CHOOSE to cover their own health care than pay for such a thing as COBRA.

4. Taking all these crazy and unjustified eliminations then dividing them by three hundred to arrive at a number that sounds better that the real thing is simply manipulating the unquestioning masses.

5. Doesn't make me a smarty pants to see through this bogus calculation.

You don't have to agree with the calculations, but the calculations are not bogus. There is a reason for the elimination and it makes sense for those who do not see national healthcare as a system that provides CHOICE. So, the calculations eliminate those who choose not to have healthcare coverage from those who do not have a choice (those who are the targets of nationalized healthcare coverage).

[Charlyc]

I stopped reading at Page 5. There are just too many nutcase posts here.

Hmmmm...I wonder which ones you consider 'nutcase'.

Here is my 2 cents worth at 4AM:

1.) The Taxpayer cannot save EVERYBODY. Heck, they can't even save all americans, let alone illegals! GROW UP PEOPLE!

Hmmm......but taxpayers save everyone in other countries, like in my one. But then again we don't spend sooo much on the military, maybe that's why US taxpayers can't save all Americans?

2.) America is BETTER than any country. If you don't think so, then that's why you're NOT in America and therefore has no vote on this issue.

Well......if you can avoid the gangs, mass shootings at some college or McDonalds, and your not in a trailler. But America does have some good things, like Hollywood, hot cheerleaders, Nasa, invented the Internet, yea a few good things until you elected that Bush fellow...Oh dear!

My point is, Canadian healthcare is good for Canadians, British healthcare is good for Britain, Australian care is good for Australia, and they do not necessarily imply they are good for Americans!

Well I'd have to disagree with this. There has to be a 'best way' and a 'least best way', that's why we look at the way other communities do things, to analyze which way could be the best way. And currently the rest of the world (& I feel safe saying this) looks to the american way of doing healthcare and says 'No, lets not go down that road' because its a big general mess.

3.) The great thing about America is you can go to the movies and order small, medium, large, or jumbo popcorn with or without butter with a small, medium, large, or jumbo Coca-Cola.

Something one can do in any country; and that goes for heatlhcare too.

All you non-Americans (me excluded since I actually live in America) should probably just lie low on this topic because you will never understand..

Well...you have a point here but then again it is a discussion over the internet. Plus I entered this discussion after reading about the misinformation currently being pushed by a Canadian woman and then I tried to correct the record about the so called 'national' or 'socialised' medicine. If americans only understood what the real situation is in Canada, Australia, Sweeden, Germany, GB etc then even if they chose not to copy them, fine, its your problem. But in this thread there are many examples of the misinformation that is currently going on in america (misinformation to be polite, could also be rightwing scare mongering). So really one could argue that I'm just trying to help my distant cousins here see the light regarding national healthcare systems

[Guest]

Hmmmm...I wonder which ones you consider 'nutcase'.

But in this thread there are many examples of the misinformation that is currently going on in america (misinformation to be polite, could also be rightwing scare mongering). So really one could argue that I'm just trying to help my distant cousins here see the light regarding national healthcare systems

Yep, that's the one...

Okay, another healthcare system example... Philippines. Greatest doctors on the planet, if I may say so... and you can take that to the bank regardless of what you heard from Desperate Housewives. Healthcare is private. Health insurance is few and far between. Most of the population go to the doctor when they need to and pay out of their pockets. My brother is a neurologist. Sometimes they pay him in bananas. I mean that literally. My brother - man, he can diagnose without benefit of lab work. On the mark, 99% of the time. Neurology or otherwise. His wife is a special needs pediatrician. Same thing. Both of them can provide super amazing care for the cost of bananas.

So, they don't make mega-bucks, but, it's okay, because one guy tried to sue for malpractice. A truly bogus case. Now he's in trouble - the car mechanic won't fix his car anymore, his wife's gyn won't see her anymore, he can't even go to the market without getting stares. Yep. Nobody sues for malpractice there unless they're absolutely sure the doctor was a dingbat, lest the village puts you in the corner.

And still, the world goes round, it's not perfect, but for the Filipinos, it works!

[Moksha]

There is a reason for the elimination and it makes sense for those who do not see national healthcare as a system that provides CHOICE. So, the calculations eliminate those who choose not to have healthcare coverage from those who do not have a choice (those who are the targets of nationalized healthcare coverage).

Those who do not wish to receive care when they or their loved ones are sick!!! Why should they? Surely suffering, death or bankruptcy are desirable consequences when it comes to not wanting health care.

This charge of choosing not to have coverage is just a cover for these folks inability to obtain affordable health care, just as this end point calculation is an attempt to minimize the scope of the problem.

:)

[Prodigal_Son]

Okay, I have a few minutes to respond, so here goes:

1. Did you know most illegals do not even have W-2's because they are paid under the table. What proof are you offering to even suggest that 9.7 million illegal aliens have even been added into this total.

Did you read the blog? And did you actually open the .pdf labeled "Exhibit A"? It has a section for "NOT A CITIZEN". True, this could be legal emigrants, too. But it doesn't actually affect the reality of the 9.7 million # attached to it. They're NOT Americans. They DON'T deserve free health insurance. Health Care for them? Sure! But stick THEM with the bill when you're done, not ME.

2. It is crazy to try to chop younger adult out of the mix of the uninsured. If they have no health coverage they have no health coverage. In Utah, many young adults are newly married and begining to multiply and replenish the Earth. Hospitals and Doctors want money for OB care and delivery. For God's sake think of the children!!!

And Utah is such a BIG portion of the national population! How many congressional delegates are we up to? Oh, that's right: 3. That's like one neighborhood in NY. The fact that we have a disproportionately high # of young newlyweds here has VERY LITTLE impact on the national #'s. In fact, "Currently the average age at marriage in the US is 26.8 years for men, and 25.1 years for women." Those #'s put you're "average" 18-24 year old as a single.

3. Eliminating people from the list because they are between jobs or between insurances is goofy. When you're unemployed your family still can get sick and will need medical care.

Many jobs have a 90 day wait for benefits. That's the system. Maybe that should be worked on. It sure as heck isn't grounds for dumping the existing industry on its butt. Don't like it? Don't change jobs, don't get fired, or purchase COBRA.

4. Taking all these crazy and unjustified eliminations then dividing them by three hundred to arrive at a number that sounds better that the real thing is simply manipulating the unquestioning masses.

I love math. You know why? Because there's a right answer every time! Let me step you through this crazy thing we call ALGEBRA:

12,000,000 uninsured divided by 300,000,000 population (according to the document) = 4%. Cool how that works, eh? I checked it on multiple calculators to verify its authenticity.

5. Doesn't make me a smarty pants to see through this bogus calculation.

Sure thing.