semantics

[BenRaines]

I am confused. You asked a member of the Quorum of Seventy these questions questions and instead of answering you he suggested you come to an online forum?

Ben Raines

[bytebear]

You are right and I understand this point about the bishop. But you are told not to talk about certain things.

No, not really. What things do you think we are told not to talk about?

[Lstinthwrld]

I am confused. You asked a member of the Quorum of Seventy these questions questions and instead of answering you he suggested you come to an online forum?

Ben Raines

No he answered it. Then he suggested I take it to the community at large and see what they thought.

[Lstinthwrld]

No, not really. What things do you think we are told not to talk about?

temple ordinances.

[bytebear]

temple ordinances.

Now, I am confused. in your first post you said, "Now I understand that there are somethings you don't discuss with the non initiated (temple ordinances and such) and nor should they."

So which is it. you understand or you don't?

But the temple ordinances are not about introducing new doctrine. There is nothing taught in the temple that isn't taught in Sunday School. The details are sacred, and as such they are not discussed, but the concepts and meaning behind them are all common concepts within the church.

[bytor2112]

This guy really ought to go back to CARM.

Edited August 19, 2009 by bytor2112

[Lstinthwrld]

Now, I am confused. in your first post you said, "Now I understand that there are somethings you don't discuss with the non initiated (temple ordinances and such) and nor should they."

So which is it. you understand or you don't?

But the temple ordinances are not about introducing new doctrine. There is nothing taught in the temple that isn't taught in Sunday School. The details are sacred, and as such they are not discussed, but the concepts and meaning behind them are all common concepts within the church.

I do understand. You said there is nothing we are told not to talk about and in fact there is. That's the only thing I was saying.

When you have people looking in at something like this I.E. a religion with self perpetuated "secret" rituals it sets of warning bells. We have had anti cult beliefs hammered in our heads for a while now but especially hard since the whole Jones town thing and a part of that hammering has been 'what are the warning signs of a cult?' One of those signs are secret rituals that no one can talk about under threat of punishment. When people learn of these things (members and nonmembers alike) and ask questions and get answers like those stated above you get problems.

For reasons just like this one.

Before it starts let me stop it by saying I don't believe the LDS church is a cult or in any way invalidated by its practices. I believe the LDS church has as much claim to validity as any of the other christian faiths. So please take the above example as just that and not a statement of my beliefs.

[Lstinthwrld]

This guy really ought to go back to CARM.

Meaning?

[Lstinthwrld]

This guy really ought to go back to CARM.

Ok I understand your post now. I just googled CARM. Maybe they should remember Jesus' core teaching of love thy neighbor as you would love thyself. This CARM site is just an exercise in ignorance. What about this thread would make you believe I am here in any type of an antimormon role?

[Hemidakota]

No he answered it. Then he suggested I take it to the community at large and see what they thought.

Who was the GA?

[bytebear]

I do understand. You said there is nothing we are told not to talk about and in fact there is. That's the only thing I was saying.

When you have people looking in at something like this I.E. a religion with self perpetuated "secret" rituals it sets of warning bells. We have had anti cult beliefs hammered in our heads for a while now but especially hard since the whole Jones town thing and a part of that hammering has been 'what are the warning signs of a cult?' One of those signs are secret rituals that no one can talk about under threat of punishment. When people learn of these things (members and nonmembers alike) and ask questions and get answers like those stated above you get problems.

For reasons just like this one.

Before it starts let me stop it by saying I don't believe the LDS church is a cult or in any way invalidated by its practices. I believe the LDS church has as much claim to validity as any of the other christian faiths. So please take the above example as just that and not a statement of my beliefs.

Well, a couple things come to mind. First of all, most religions have "secret" rituals. There are many rituals, for example, in Catholicism that are not commonly known of. The difference is that in Mormonism the rituals are designed to be participated by all adult members, where as in other religions they are often exclusive to a choice few, or to the clergy. LDS has no formal professional clergy (meaning no one studies for degrees or goes to seminary to gain higher status in the church), so the rituals associated with moving up in the faith are not exclusive.

So, maybe it makes people uneasy to think they they are to become participants in these rituals. Whereas in other faiths, the deep sacred rituals are exclusive to monks or priests, so it is less of an issue.

As to the "secret" nature of the rituals, the church to my knowledge has never tried to censor the leaked descriptions of the church's rituals. It is a personal choice of members to hold these things sacred, but not because they want them to be a secret. In fact, they want everyone to join the church and participate in these rituals. And, as I said, doctrinally, there is nothing in the temple that isn't common teachings throughout the church. The presentation may be new to the initiate, but the theology is not.

You are not excluded from the temple because what is taught is a big secret. Rather, all participants are of a like mind, have made a covenant of baptism, and have spent time living to the best of their abilities, a life of sacrifice and commitment to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Those are the prerequisites of the temple. You must covenant through baptism and live those covenants before you can make further covenants.

Edited August 19, 2009 by bytebear

[prisonchaplain]

Nope don't have his phone #

Really? I do. It is listed.

[HiJolly]

Really? I do. It is listed.

It's in the 'O's, under "Our Father"!

HiJolly

[Lstinthwrld]

Well, a couple things come to mind. First of all, most religions have "secret" rituals. There are many rituals, for example, in Catholicism that are not commonly known of. The difference is that in Mormonism the rituals are designed to be participated by all adult members, where as in other religions they are often exclusive to a choice few, or to the clergy. LDS has no formal professional clergy (meaning no one studies for degrees or goes to seminary to gain higher status in the church), so the rituals associated with moving up in the faith are not exclusive.

So, maybe it makes people uneasy to think they they are to become participants in these rituals. Whereas in other faiths, the deep sacred rituals are exclusive to monks or priests, so it is less of an issue.

As to the "secret" nature of the rituals, the church to my knowledge has never tried to censor the leaked descriptions of the church's rituals. It is a personal choice of members to hold these things sacred, but not because they want them to be a secret. In fact, they want everyone to join the church and participate in these rituals. And, as I said, doctrinally, there is nothing in the temple that isn't common teachings throughout the church. The presentation may be new to the initiate, but the theology is not.

You are not excluded from the temple because what is taught is a big secret. Rather, all participants are of a like mind, have made a covenant of baptism, and have spent time living to the best of their abilities, a life of sacrifice and commitment to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Those are the prerequisites of the temple. You must covenant through baptism and live those covenants before you can make further covenants.

Ok so if its not secret then I can go to the salt lake city temple and watch a wedding/sealing or the ordinances? I can answer this one. I as a non mormon or even a mormon but lacking a recommends can not attend.

This is unlike any other branch of Christianity. While some other christian sects my have rituals that only clergy participate in they do not limit the access of the uninitiated or the laity.

So in this respect the mormon church is indeed unique.

The church actually ran quite the campaign to get the leaked details of the temple ordinances off of the net to the extent that they sued some and bullied others about it. To my knowledge there is only one site that still has them up. You can look into this for yourself the documentation is public as some of them were legal proceedings.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Lstinthwrld

[Lstinthwrld]

Well, a couple things come to mind. First of all, most religions have "secret" rituals. There are many rituals, for example, in Catholicism that are not commonly known of. The difference is that in Mormonism the rituals are designed to be participated by all adult members, where as in other religions they are often exclusive to a choice few, or to the clergy. LDS has no formal professional clergy (meaning no one studies for degrees or goes to seminary to gain higher status in the church), so the rituals associated with moving up in the faith are not exclusive.

So, maybe it makes people uneasy to think they they are to become participants in these rituals. Whereas in other faiths, the deep sacred rituals are exclusive to monks or priests, so it is less of an issue.

As to the "secret" nature of the rituals, the church to my knowledge has never tried to censor the leaked descriptions of the church's rituals. It is a personal choice of members to hold these things sacred, but not because they want them to be a secret. In fact, they want everyone to join the church and participate in these rituals. And, as I said, doctrinally, there is nothing in the temple that isn't common teachings throughout the church. The presentation may be new to the initiate, but the theology is not.

You are not excluded from the temple because what is taught is a big secret. Rather, all participants are of a like mind, have made a covenant of baptism, and have spent time living to the best of their abilities, a life of sacrifice and commitment to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Those are the prerequisites of the temple. You must covenant through baptism and live those covenants before you can make further covenants.

As far as the clergy issue you are saying mormons don't have stations such as deacon and priest etc. that members have to reach before they go to temple. How about all the kids that go to 'seminary' two hours a day from twelve on?

[bmy-]

'Milk before meat' gets taken to an extreme in the LDS church. It's good some times and bad other times. I had a string of extraordinary missionaries and they smudged the lines and talked about stuff they normally are told not to talk about. That's why I chose the LDS Church..

It really bugs me when missionaries and those teaching the gospel leave things out unless they are asked. The next pair of missionaries I had didn't mesh well for this very reason.

[bytebear]

Ok so if its not secret then I can go to the salt lake city temple and watch a wedding/sealing or the ordinances? I can answer this one. I as a non mormon or even a mormon but lacking a recommends can not attend.

This is unlike any other branch of Christianity. While some other christian sects my have rituals that only clergy participate in they do not limit the access of the uninitiated or the laity.

So in this respect the mormon church is indeed unique.

.

Actually, no, there are some eastern religions that restrict weddings to certain people. In some Native American traditions, the bride is attended only by certain women up to a month before her wedding. Not because what they were doing was secret, but because the preparation for marriage was so sacred that men could not be in her presence. It's the same concept. And you admit that laity is not privy to some clergy oriented ritual, but there is no separation of laity and clergy in the LDS church. All men are part of the clergy, and as such, they go into the temple as priests, and women go in as priestesses. This is exactly the same as in other Christian churches, it's just done on a universal scale.

The church actually ran quite the campaign to get the leaked details of the temple ordinances off of the net to the extent that they sued some and bullied others about it. To my knowledge there is only one site that still has them up. You can look into this for yourself the documentation is public as some of them were legal proceedings

The church did nothing of the sort. And if you can find any documentation, I will pay you $100. They did sue the Tanners for publishing part of a Priesthood manual without permission, but that had nothing to do with the temple. So you have your facts off a bit, I'm afraid.

As far as the clergy issue you are saying mormons don't have stations such as deacon and priest etc. that members have to reach before they go to temple. How about all the kids that go to 'seminary' two hours a day from twelve on?

I never said the church didn't have priesthood offices. I said they don't have special training in order to attain such offices. Seminary has nothing to do with clergy. It's just a term for High School aged religious study. No one in Mormonism studies to become a priest or bishop or seventy or apostle. Oh, and Seminary starts in 9th grade, which would be around age 15 or 16, several years after one would already have the priesthood. And girls also attend seminary. Again, your facts are a bit skewed.

Edited August 19, 2009 by bytebear

[bytebear]

'Milk before meat' gets taken to an extreme in the LDS church. It's good some times and bad other times. I had a string of extraordinary missionaries and they smudged the lines and talked about stuff they normally are told not to talk about. That's why I chose the LDS Church..

It really bugs me when missionaries and those teaching the gospel leave things out unless they are asked. The next pair of missionaries I had didn't mesh well for this very reason.

As a missionary I was never told to not teach anything. There are six set discussions, and we tried to follow them, as it is easy to get sidetracked, but I never had a problem answering the deeper questions, as long as I got the opportunity to fully explain a concept. If it was only to provoke an argument, I wouldn't bother. Who would?

[Lstinthwrld]

Actually you will notice I said CHRISTIAN religions. are we talking Christianity here or eastern religions? Christianity right?

And I believe the issue in my OP is a direct result of a church authority with obviously less than adequate education. So i'm right there with ya so far.

As far as my facts about ages and when kids start 'seminary' OK I will through ya bone there ya got me I was wrong.

Like I said yeah the church was very aggressive about removing the information from the net. But by all means don't take my word for it. Go look it up for yourself.

[Lstinthwrld]

bytebear wrote "And you admit that laity is not privy to some clergy oriented ritual, but there is no separation of laity and clergy in the LDS church. All men are part of the clergy, and as such, they go into the temple as priests, and women go in as priestesses. This is exactly the same as in other churches, it's just done on a universal scale."

What I stated here is that while the laity and the general public may not understand the rite they are not barred or excluded from attending it. Not even a non member average Joe walking in off of the street for the first time would be turned away. Sorry I wasn't clear on this point.

[bytebear]

Actually you will notice I said CHRISTIAN religions. are we talking Christianity here or eastern religions? Christianity right?

And I believe the issue in my OP is a direct result of a church authority with obviously less than adequate education. So i'm right there with ya so far.

As far as my facts about ages and when kids start 'seminary' OK I will through ya bone there ya got me I was wrong.

Like I said yeah the church was very aggressive about removing the information from the net. But by all means don't take my word for it. Go look it up for yourself.

I am well familiar with the incident you are talking about. It was not related to the temple. Sorry. You simply have your facts off. Now, you are starting to get a bit disrespectful, so I don't know if I can take your inquiry seriously. Do you really not understand the concept of sacred places and private tutelage?

How do you explain Jesus' method of teaching his disciples things in private that he did not reveal to the masses?

Luke 10

21 ¶ In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

23 ¶ And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:

24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

[bmy-]

As a missionary I was never told to not teach anything. There are six set discussions, and we tried to follow them, as it is easy to get sidetracked, but I never had a problem answering the deeper questions, as long as I got the opportunity to fully explain a concept. If it was only to provoke an argument, I wouldn't bother. Who would?

You were taught well then. By chance.. are you from somewhere besides Utah? Probably 9/10 missionaries we get down here are from Utah.. and the ones that have not been have been the best.

I was taught that there was ONE God and that LDS was monotheistic.. I knew better and had to correct the missionaries. I've gotta say though.. a good missionary can be a serious force and a crappy missionary can do some serious damage.

[Lstinthwrld]

You were taught well then. By chance.. are you from somewhere besides Utah? Probably 9/10 missionaries we get down here are from Utah.. and the ones that have not been have been the best.

I was taught that there was ONE God and that LDS was monotheistic.. I knew better and had to correct the missionaries. I've gotta say though.. a good missionary can be a serious force and a crappy missionary can do some serious damage.

Man I am right there with you. I have had the privilege to be able to study with the missionaries I have. I have run into one or two that were very by the training center book on what they can and wont talk about. My relationship with them was short. You are 100000000000000000% right about how both sides of that coin affect people spiritually.

[Lstinthwrld]

I am well familiar with the incident you are talking about. It was not related to the temple. Sorry. You simply have your facts off. Now, you are starting to get a bit disrespectful, so I don't know if I can take your inquiry seriously. Do you really not understand the concept of sacred places and private tutelage?

How do you explain Jesus' method of teaching his disciples things in private that he did not reveal to the masses?

Luke 10

21 ¶ In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

23 ¶ And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:

24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Easy. Prove it happened.

[bytebear]

You were taught well then. By chance.. are you from somewhere besides Utah? Probably 9/10 missionaries we get down here are from Utah.. and the ones that have not been have been the best.

I was taught that there was ONE God and that LDS was monotheistic.. I knew better and had to correct the missionaries. I've gotta say though.. a good missionary can be a serious force and a crappy missionary can do some serious damage.

I am from Utah, but maybe I had a rebellious spirit, since I later moved to California.

Ummm.... LDS are monotheistic, and believe in ONE God. That God however is made of (at least) three beings. Just because God can be made up of individuals does not mean that God is not one. When we become one with God, I believe our unity will not be physical, but will be in such a perfect harmony, that there is still ONE God. polytheism or even henotheism implies gods with different goals and competing desires. That is not what LDS teach. God is one, even if God is three. And LDS Scripture confirms this.

2 Nephi 31

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is fone God, without end. Amen.

D&C 20

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.