LDS Position on Homosexuality & "Eternal Gender"

[Seeker7]

Hi everyone! I recently posted a thread called "Curious About Mormonism" in which I asked several questions about the LDS faith. It's been a lot of fun to read everybody's answers! Before I came to this forum, I was really unfamiliar with LDS beliefs, but now I'm gaining a lot of understanding by reading what people have to say. I've also been checking out some of the websites that were suggested to me. Overall, it's proving to be a very informative experience!

Some of the websites I've been reading are: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Mormon.org - Home, Mormons - Information about the church and its people, and LDS - Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - Mormons.

While browsing through the About.com pages, I came across one entitled "The Church's Teachings on Homosexuality", found at this url. The page says:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches how homosexuality and lesbianism (sexual relations between members of the same sex) violates God's law of chastity and is a sexual sin. To more fully understand how homosexuality is a sexual sin one must first understand the eternal nature of our gender and how the powers of procreation are sacred.

Our Gender is Eternal

God, the Eternal Father, created each of us-male and female-in His image (Genesis 1:27). We are each a son or daughter of heavenly parents; God is the father of our spirits, and we are His children. The Family: A Proclamation to the World states:

"Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose" (paragraph 2).

When we lived as spirits with our Heavenly Father in the pre-existence we were the same gender as we are now, and will continue to remain so after we die. Our gender, male or female, is a divine characteristic that is a part of our eternal identity.

I cannot help but be curious about these statements. It is a biological fact that some human beings are born with incomplete or ill-formed sexual organs, ambiguous genitalia, or even intersex anatomies. Gender is not always black-and-white, nor is it always easy to determine. Some children are born with characteristics from both sexes, and others seem to be born with characteristics that are completely unidentifiable and baffling to doctors. How does this fit in with the idea that gender is eternal, and that God created each of us "male and female" in his image? Some people simply are neither male nor female, and some people are both. If gender is truly "an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose", then why do some people have mixed or ambiguous genders? Why would God create them that way, if a clear-cut gender identity is so important?

The page says that we will retain our genders even after death, when we pass on into the Spirit World. Does this mean that intersex people will remain intersexual for all of eternity?

Our gender, male or female, is a divine characteristic that is a part of our eternal identity.

But gender is not just "male or female". Some people are both, and some people are neither. If gender is "divine" (it comes from God) and is an important part of our identity, then why would God create people who do not fall in either the male or female category?

Please help me understand. I welcome everyone's insights on this issue.

[bytebear]

Our bodies are imperfect, and are subject to genetic discrepancies. But our spirits are not, and our spirits have gender. There is a difference between homosexuality and gender identification. They do not go hand in hand. Gay men don't want to be girls, and the stereotype of effeminate men is just that, a myth. So, from that angle, I don't think you should confuse the two issues. Someone who has gone through gender reassignment, assuming they have been evaluated and it is considered a medical condition, based on experts in the field can be baptized into the church. Issues of priesthood are more ambiguous and the church generally plays conservatively in such matters, which to some may seem prejudicial. But the eventuality is that we will all enter the spirit world, and eventually resurrected into a perfect body, and all ambiguity will be resolved, But, in this life, we are left in some cases with ambiguity.

[desirexnoel]

Our bodies are imperfect, and are subject to genetic discrepancies. But our spirits are not, and our spirits have gender. There is a difference between homosexuality and gender identification.

Is transgendered different then?

[AELK]

Gender isn't solely a matter of what genitalia one has or any factor of genetic make-up. There are characteristics of our spirits, our true selves, that have gender. Gender isn't all about sexual elements, it has a divine purpose that goes beyond procreation.

[Hemidakota]

There is no change to the gospel or its commandments since the days Adam and Eve; no matter what the world stated or seeks to revise. Even within all three eternal kingdoms after mortality, there is no transgression in allowing Homosexuality or Lesbian acts. We will receive our previous knowledge of what was and will be complimented with eternal laws, which all will need to be obeyed in each state.

Any gender defects will be corrected and the intelligence will be corrected after this life.

[desirexnoel]

I found this link regarding homosexuality and the bible, and another look at what is actually condemned. I did read the whole thing although I admit because of my short attention span it took two sittings. It was still a worthwhile read in my opinion and regardless of your personal views I think everyone should know what else is out there. n_n

A Look at the Bible and Homosexuality | Real Live Preacher

[Hemidakota]

Does it matter when we compare it too eternal laws? No...as I stated, we have eternal laws and they must be obeyed in this life in order to dwell with GOD and HIS Son for eternally. I wish for all of our brothers and sisters on this earth to be in the highest kingdom together. Unfortunately, through genetic defects, medical aliments, culture upbringing, drug altering changes, and so forth, we must seek to overcome these issues and seek the Godhead for eternal truths.

[MichaelPAGuy]

If you want to read more about the subject read...The Family: A Proclamation to the World. It explains everything in more detail. You could probably do a search on lds.org for it.

[desirexnoel]

If you want to read more about the subject read...The Family: A Proclamation to the World. It explains everything in more detail. You could probably do a search on lds.org for it.

I think I found it. This, right?

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - The Family:A Proclamation to the World

[Hemidakota]

Desi, if you could view our pre-mortal life and compare it to those who are glorified celestial families, it would change your whole outlook of this life.

[desirexnoel]

Desi, if you could view our pre-mortal life and compare it to those who are glorified celestial families, it would change your whole outlook of this life.

There are a lot of things I am sure that could change my outlook on this life, but that requires some very significant manifestation. Just the mere thought of one wont do it.

[Hemidakota]

It starts with desire...yes! GOD is not respecter of persons. You have the ability to experience it. If a fourteen year old girl could view this, you can too. :)

[Kawazu]

Hi,

If anyone is interested in hearing about transgender issues from people who are personally affected by the topic, this freely available online stream of This American Life should be helpful:

This American Life

Act Two. Tom Girls.

Lilly and Thomasina have a lot in common. They’re both 8 years old. And they were both born boys, although it became clear pretty early on that they'd prefer to be girls. There aren’t all that many kids in the world like them, but recently, at a conference in Seattle on transgender parenting, they met. And they immediately hit it off. They could talk about things with each other that they'd never been able to share with other friends back home. And that’s comforting, even if they never see each other after the conference ends. Producer Mary Beth Kirchner tells the story, with production help from Rebecca Weiker. (17 minutes)

The pertinent segment starts about 19 minutes in. Fast forward or enjoy the whole episode at your leisure.

Have a great day.

Sincerely,

Kawazu

Edited August 20, 2009 by Kawazu

[desirexnoel]

Kawazu- Thank you for the link. n_n

I like hearing about what people who are actually affected by things think as opposed to the outside view that one normally hears.

[Seeker7]

BYTEBEAR:

Hi! Thanks for responding. Would you mind clarifying one thing?

Our bodies are imperfect, and are subject to genetic discrepancies. But our spirits are not, and our spirits have gender.

Do you believe it's possible, then, for a man to have the "spirit" of a woman? Today, we know that some men do indeed feel like women trapped within the wrong body. And, based on what you have said, God sometimes allows errors to occur in our physical genders despite the fact that gender is apparently "an important part of our eternal identity". Therefore, perhaps a female "spirit" could be born within a male body -- still a physical error, correct?

There is a difference between homosexuality and gender identification...I don't think you should confuse the two issues.

No worries! I don't. :)

AELK:

Hello there. Thank you for the response!

Gender isn't solely a matter of what genitalia one has or any factor of genetic make-up. There are characteristics of our spirits, our true selves, that have gender.

But wouldn't you agree that a person's genitalia and genetic make-up are important factors that help to determine his/her sexual identity? Can you imagine that someone with ambiguous sex organs might be a little confused? Does it seem plausible to you that some people who are born that way have no idea what to think of themselves, or how to identify? The fact is, some people truly don't know how to answer this question: "Are you male or female?"

Gender isn't all about sexual elements, it has a divine purpose that goes beyond procreation.

If there is a "divine purpose" to gender, then why does God allow such confusing mistakes to occur? It seems to me that if a person's sexual identity is so important to God that defying it is considered a sin, everyone should find it easy to label themselves either male or female. But as we can see in real life, that unfortunately is not the case.

[Vort]

It is a biological fact that some human beings are born with incomplete or ill-formed sexual organs, ambiguous genitalia, or even intersex anatomies. Gender is not always black-and-white, nor is it always easy to determine. Some children are born with characteristics from both sexes, and others seem to be born with characteristics that are completely unidentifiable and baffling to doctors. How does this fit in with the idea that gender is eternal, and that God created each of us "male and female" in his image?

The same way that the fact that we are created in God's image, with two arms, two legs, one head, two eyes, etc. is not disproven by the existence of those with birth defects. Our present mortal being is imperfect clay.

Some people simply are neither male nor female, and some people are both.

This is a gross overgeneralization.

If gender is truly "an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose", then why do some people have mixed or ambiguous genders? Why would God create them that way, if a clear-cut gender identity is so important?

I suppose for the same reason he "creates" people with no legs, no arms, or two heads.

The page says that we will retain our genders even after death, when we pass on into the Spirit World. Does this mean that intersex people will remain intersexual for all of eternity?

No. It means that men will still be men and women will still be women. Undoubtedly, those of indeterminate sex while in mortality will nevertheless be whatever sex they are spiritually, however their mortal genitalia may or may not have formed.

But gender is not just "male or female". Some people are both, and some people are neither. If gender is "divine" (it comes from God) and is an important part of our identity, then why would God create people who do not fall in either the male or female category?

For the same reason God "creates" any other physically imperfect being.

Please help me understand. I welcome everyone's insights on this issue.

Hope you've been helped. I think you're making the issue out to be far harder than it actually is.

[Vort]

I found this link regarding homosexuality and the bible, and another look at what is actually condemned. I did read the whole thing although I admit because of my short attention span it took two sittings. It was still a worthwhile read in my opinion and regardless of your personal views I think everyone should know what else is out there. n_n

A Look at the Bible and Homosexuality | Real Live Preacher

You can find any number of people who will preach to you anything you wish to hear. The fact that some anonymous guy wants to proclaim, by his own authority, that homosexuality is Biblically acceptable is, in the words of Macbeth, "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

Thank God we have access to true prophets who teach us the pure words of Christ, and have taught us unambiguously that homosexuality is an evil we must avoid in our conduct.

[desirexnoel]

Hope you've been helped. I think you're making the issue out to be far harder than it actually is.

I disagree. Homosexuality is a huge issue. Unfortunately it isn't something that can be dealt with through a forum... u_u We wont come to an agreement here.

[desirexnoel]

You can find any number of people who will preach to you anything you wish to hear. The fact that some anonymous guy wants to proclaim, by his own authority, that homosexuality is Biblically acceptable is, in the words of Macbeth, "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

Thank God we have access to true prophets who teach us the pure words of Christ, and have taught us unambiguously that homosexuality is an evil we must avoid in our conduct.

Did you actually read it though? u_u

I agree. You can find people willing to tell you what you want to hear... but I think we disagree on who those people are...

[bytebear]

I disagree. Homosexuality is a huge issue. Unfortunately it isn't something that can be dealt with through a forum... u_u We wont come to an agreement here.

Why is homosexuality any more complicated than anything else? Because it is a social hot button? What if we were living in prohibition? Would the issue be alcohol? What if we lived in ancient Rome where single men took on teenage male lovers prior to marriage?

The church teaches free agency. When you join the church, you covenant to live according to certain moral standards, including the law of chastity. If you don't want to live that law, then don't join the church. If you do want to be active in the church, and have same sex attraction, then you will have a personal dilemma, and it will be difficult, but it is no different than challenges other people have about other aspects of faith and practice. A professional athlete may choose to forgo their career because they won't play on Sunday, or they may lose opportunities because they choose to go on a mission. Sacrifice is a part of following Christ, and for one with same sex attraction, the sacrifices are no greater than those who chose to leave their families in Europe and come to America, or those who have strained relationships with a spouse or parent because of their beliefs.

[desirexnoel]

The church teaches free agency.

Yupp. That is all I ever here. When it comes down to it, if you are gay, live a lie or go to hell.

[Vort]

Hope you've been helped. I think you're making the issue out to be far harder than it actually is.

I disagree. Homosexuality is a huge issue.

Huh? Who are you responding to? Did someone say that homosexuality was not a huge issue?

Unfortunately it isn't something that can be dealt with through a forum...

No, it needs to be dealt with through revelation. Which it has been.

u_u We wont come to an agreement here.

f_f Those who believe the prophets are already in agreement.

[Vort]

You can find any number of people who will preach to you anything you wish to hear. The fact that some anonymous guy wants to proclaim, by his own authority, that homosexuality is Biblically acceptable is, in the words of Macbeth, "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

Thank God we have access to true prophets who teach us the pure words of Christ, and have taught us unambiguously that homosexuality is an evil we must avoid in our conduct.

Did you actually read it though? u_u

Yes. y_y

I agree. You can find people willing to tell you what you want to hear... but I think we disagree on who those people are...

Perhaps. I think a man who speaks the opposite of what the prophets have told us is the mind of God is someone willing to teach what some want to hear, despite the truth of things. Who do you think is doing so?

[Vort]

Yupp. That is all I ever here. When it comes down to it, if you are gay, live a lie or go to hell.

I don't believe anyone here has ever said such a thing. Please provide a source for such a baseless, vicious charge.

[bytebear]

Yupp. That is all I ever here. When it comes down to it, if you are gay, live a lie or go to hell.

Obviously you don't understand the concept of heaven in LDS theology. We are resurrected to a level of glory which we lived our lives. Some of us will not be able to live to covenants, and we can either make those covenants and try our best to live up to them, or we can choose to not make the covenant at all. There is no sin in same sex attraction. There is only a loss of blessings if we cannot control our sexual urges. Yes, it is a unique test for many, and some choose to forgo the test knowing they will receive lesser glory, although I suspect the mercy of Christ goes a lot deeper than we will ever understand.

I will also say, that the member who takes a sip of beer once in a while, or cheats on their taxes, or sleeps in on Sunday instead of going to church is equally in jeopardy of losing glory in the resurrection. It's not about what the test is. It's about learning to overcome.