The devil can do it too?

[Justice]

What you are suggesting is that God set them up to sin. He told them not to eat the fruit--commanded them not to. But, he rigged the universe so that they would eventually have to do so. Isn't that Calvin's irresistable grace in reverse? Does that not contradict free agency?

Not at all. He gave them their agency. They could have remained in the Garden if they chose to.

Remember the first command He gave them? Isn't it interesting that, according to my theory, they had to eat the forbidden fruit in order to keep the first commandment? I believe they chose the first commandment over the second. I don't believe it was the same as the wilfull rebellion we show.

Well...we're not told they didn't have children, first of all. But none are mentioned. And, who knows how long they were in the Garden. Could have been a day or a millenium. BTW, even if it was a couple of years, many couples have to try for quite a long time before they conceive...so, again, there's nothing much here to do but speculate.

I think you missed my point that they were created perfect at first. There was nothing to stand in their way. If they knew how to have children they had all the tools, even the commandment from God to do so. He even married them. Remember, they didn't have children in the Garden of Eden. God did not kick Adam, Eve, and their children out of the Garden, He kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden. Sometimes I think even you think too much. :)

My only point is that they were ashamed because they were naked, and with the introduction of the sin nature, that became shameful. There's nothing here to make me conclude that they were ashamed because they suddenly developed sex urges. THAT would imply that sex is shameful.

I didn't say they suddenly developed sex urges. I didn't mean to imply that. What I said was they learned their gender and became aware. That knowledge is prerequisite to having children, is it not? After God taught them how, then they could. Study His teaching to them about tilling the ground. But, without the Pearl of Great price it will be harder to find.

I'm more inclined to believe that the sin-nature they gained made the human body shameful and prone to sin. Modesty became necessary. I just find it an incredible leep to jump to the conclusion that only with the advent of sin did Adam and Eve discover their sex drive.

As I said, I didn't suggest that. With the knowledge of good and evil came the ability to choose evil. It didn't become sin until they exercised their agency to choose it, just the same for you and I.

If you study it deeper than just this brief conversation, you will see that Adam and Eve not having children in the Garden had to mean they did not know how. Even though they were commanded to have children, they did not. Only through what they gained by the forbidden fruit could they gain the knowledge.

PC, I respect your view, and I realize what I'm saying is difficult to arrive at using just the Bible. However, some of what I'm saying is logic. If you could see that it would help immensely. Very hard to do when that logic appears to go against your beliefs.

[prisonchaplain]

Random thought about the nakedness/ashamed thing--

How does God feel about nudist camps?

See 60 posts on this very topic: http://www.lds.net/forums/open-discussion/13448-you-can-mormon-nudist.html

[prisonchaplain]

Justice, I accept that much of what you say is built upon the added materials you have, I'm assuming in the Triple. Without that, you recognize that much of what you offer is speculative. I do see the reasoning behind your thoughts, though, yes. :-)

[Justice]

There is quite a bit of reason and logic to it, I can see it too. I really do believe we can learn from what is done and not just by what is said.

For instance, that God did not kick Adam, Eve, and their children out of the Garden should give us enough to believe there were no children.

In any case, I always enjoy a good, honest discussion with you.

[Hemidakota]

Yes. Satan did seduce a third of the angels. And, it appears he thought he could take over the Kingdom of Heaven.

Yes. He begins with the temptation in the Garden, continues with the temptation of God's people throughout history.

It was not God's perfect will, no. God's will is that we worship and obey him. There's no hidden agenda with God. Will He work around our failures? Yes. Will He use them, and ultimately bring glory to Himself? Absolutely. But, is it his will that we sin??? NO!

This is a huge area of disagreement between LDS and the rest of Christianity. We Catholic/Protestant/Evangelicals, etc. all believe that Adam and Eve really did sin. There was no nobility in their choice, and their sin was not commited in innocence or ignorance. They rebelled. Satan said that if they eat the fruit they'll be like God (i.e., they won't need God anymore). Satan essentially recreates his own rebellion amongst God's highest creation, humanity. And, our parents, Adam & Eve give in to the temptation.

God did make a way of reconciliation, through Christ (Gen. 3:15). And, yes, He knew Adam and Eve would fall. But no, this was not God's best plan for us. It is always better to obey God.

Lucifer actually lured away more than a third but due to missionary work prior to casting out the entire lot, only third were thrown out to the earths.

Adam in fact would not had fail if Eve was not present in the Garden.

[Maxel]

Lucifer actually lured away more than a third but due to missionary work prior to casting out the entire lot, only third were thrown out to the earths.

Well, that would make sense out of some mysteries, but... Where do you get that from? Any scriptural support I can peruse?

[Hemidakota]

I believe there is evidence that Adam and Eve couldn't have children until after they fell.

After they ate the fruit they realized they were naked and hid from God. That is evidence they realized gender, meaning they were innocent before, like little kids, and did not recognize it.

How could God's plan have succeeded if Adam and Eve did not know how to have children?

I don't believe this is a true statement Justice regarding no children and yes, I do know what Lehi presented statement in the BoM. But I would wholeheartedly disagree here and with Elder McConkie statement also unless one had view what could be in the Garden. We need not to forget, the Godhead was supposed to return with further instruction for both Adams. We simply assume by former prophet statement and GOD gave the Adams two choices. Yet, I can understand the need to speed up salvation for HIS children noting the last earth indeed failed during the animal creation [according to the Journal of Joseph Smith] and allowing the garden not to be guarded during this period, noting Lucifer and his minions were there.

Even a child does not reconciled what is gender until we instruct them. Have you seen a two year-old run outside naked without fear of embarrassment? I have.... Now imagine now the garden is guarded by GOD's henchmen and they finally returned with further instructions. The Gods began educating both Adams on mortality and the necessity to fulfill HIS plan. Would they go forth now? Would they it be possible for GOD to alter their physical immortal bodies by infusing physical blood into their veins to bring about death? Was it necessary for them to transgress in order to understand the differences between good and evil? Something to think about…

[Hemidakota]

Well, that would make sense out of some mysteries, but... Where do you get that from? Any scriptural support I can peruse?

If all of the world inspiring writings [scriptures] from Adam until now were put forth to mankind, then yes. But you have already seen, that is not the case. Many truths were removed by those who serve Lucifer or were lost, perhaps removed from them who did not keep the covenant. However, seek a confirmation on what is given by the Holy Ghost for the answer.

Even in the beginning, prior to the plan being offered by GOD, there were no mixing of genders but separated and kept apart. If you could walked though the crowd of spirit children and look upon their faces, you will see or observed, when the call went forth, a few shouted for joy but many did not.

[Maxel]

Hemi... I appreciate the time you take to post on this forum.

I'll think about what you've said.