desirexnoel Posted August 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Didn't he want to force us to do good? I understand wanting to have free will. I like having free will, but I also understand wanting everyone to be in the same place in the afterlife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beefche Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 It's ok to force people to do something they don't wish to do? Remember there are atheists, agnostics, Buddahists, Muslims, etc. who don't believe in Jesus Christ. Do you think they would appreciate being forced to follow commandments that "is just for their own good." I like cheeseburgers and fries. Actually I love them. I would have issue with someone forcing me to not ever eat those again "for my own good." It is healthier to not eat those, but what if I completely don't care about my health? Is it right that I have a jailer ensuring that I never again see the likes of Burger King, Wendy's, Hardees, etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desirexnoel Posted August 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 It's ok to force people to do something they don't wish to do?I never said that. Understanding a person does not equal agreeing with them. Remember there are atheists, agnostics, Buddahists, Muslims, etc. who don't believe in Jesus Christ. Do you think they would appreciate being forced to follow commandments that "is just for their own good."I know they don't. Why religions feel a need to intervene with the laws is beyond me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beefche Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Didn't he want to force us to do good?I understand wanting to have free will. I like having free will, but I also understand wanting everyone to be in the same place in the afterlife.Perhaps I'm not understanding your question. I've quoted you and I read this to mean that since Satan is trying to get us to "heaven" (or whatever one chooses to call the afterlife), his means are ok. Is that what you are saying?Satan's means is force. If God cannot abide sin and cannot have anything sinful living in His presence, then it means that Satan will force us to be sin free. That means that we will not have a choice in what we do. If you're an atheist and don't believe in God, it means that Satan will force you to believe and force you to make choices that are sin-free. If you are a Christian, then that means that you will be forced to only choose good. As a contrast, God does not want forced obedience or even forced love. He wants us to come to Him willingly and offer our hearts to Him on our own. He will persuade, encourage and help us make the right choices, but at the end it is our choice. And because it is our choice, our love is more pure for Him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desirexnoel Posted August 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Perhaps I'm not understanding your question. I've quoted you and I read this to mean that since Satan is trying to get us to "heaven" (or whatever one chooses to call the afterlife), his means are ok. Is that what you are saying?*Sigh!* saying I understand him is not the same as agreeing with him.In other words, I like my free will and disagree.Satan's means is force. If God cannot abide sin and cannot have anything sinful living in His presence, then it means that Satan will force us to be sin free. That means that we will not have a choice in what we do. If you're an atheist and don't believe in God, it means that Satan will force you to believe and force you to make choices that are sin-free. If you are a Christian, then that means that you will be forced to only choose good. As a contrast, God does not want forced obedience or even forced love. He wants us to come to Him willingly and offer our hearts to Him on our own. He will persuade, encourage and help us make the right choices, but at the end it is our choice. And because it is our choice, our love is more pure for Him.And I understand that too. I am just trying to understand the full story. It Satan was indeed like us then we should understand his motive. I understand what God said about him, but I guess I am a both sides of the story kinda gal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beefche Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 *Sigh!* saying I understand him is not the same as agreeing with him.In other words, I like my free will and disagree.And I understand that too. I am just trying to understand the full story. It Satan was indeed like us then we should understand his motive. I understand what God said about him, but I guess I am a both sides of the story kinda gal.Ok, so let me try this again. You understand his desire for all to go to heaven. Is that what you are saying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beefche Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 If that's not right, can you explain to me what is the understanding you speak of when talking about this subject? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desirexnoel Posted August 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Ok, so let me try this again. You understand his desire for all to go to heaven. Is that what you are saying? YES! Simply that I understand him, which is the point because he was once like us. I just want to understand his point of view on the rest of the story as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desirexnoel Posted August 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 If that's not right, can you explain to me what is the understanding you speak of when talking about this subject?No. You got it! n_n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talisyn Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 It was a power thing, desirexnoel, and history is replete with siblings fighting sibling, parents killing their children, children killing their parents, all in the name of power. We are the same as we were in the pre-existence, why should it be a difficult concept to understand? lol you're much less cynical than I am Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desirexnoel Posted August 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 It was a power thing, desirexnoel, and history is replete with siblings fighting sibling, parents killing their children, children killing their parents, all in the name of power. We are the same as we were in the pre-existence, why should it be a difficult concept to understand? lol you're much less cynical than I am Lol. I guess so.I don't know. I guess because we are all different we all can understand different things but we all struggle to understand some things others may find simple concepts. This may be one of those things I just can't wrap my head around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beefche Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Ok, but remember Satan is a liar. God presented the plan of salvation to His children. He taught and explained that in order to grow and progress and be happy, we would need to come to an earth, gain a mortal body, and be tested and tried. And it wasn't an open book test--we would not have memory of our life with God, Jesus, or Satan.God's plan had a way to overcome the sins we were going to commit and the death that would come on us. That part of the plan required one to be Savior. What Satan did was stand up and say that he would do it--he would be that savior and he would make sure that everyone was saved. Sounds good right? Everybody makes it. But then he gave his condition--he, Satan, would take all the glory and become even more than God Himself. Thus, Satan lied. First, he couldn't save all of us. Whatever laws there are in place (and I don't understand all of them), a sacrifice had to be made and knew that not all would be saved. He also lied because God is Power Almighty and for Satan to attempt to overthrow God is a lie--Satan does not have all power. Satan is a liar...he didn't want to save everyone--he wanted power and glory. That was his goal.Here's a link with scriptures to understand Satan and his followers more. Bible Dictionary: Devil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxel Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 The Devil can imitate peace. It's not the same, but when you need it, and you get more desperate for it than God, it'll do. Christians of all stripes have become addicted to alcohol and drugs. In fact I heard a statistics (goodness, it's 30 years old) that if a teetotaling Christian (i.e. LDS and most evangelicals) starts to drink, there is a 50% likelihood that alcoholism will develop. There is guilt, and the booze salves that guilt, and a cycle develops.In addition, a demonic self-righteousness can feel like a testimony, religious cruelty can feel like 'contending for the faith,' and immature sarcasm and feel like profound spiritual humor.So...still seek the Spirit...but look to Him, not to the feelings He provides.I agree, except I would make the distinction between the peace the Holy Ghost brings and the peace the Devil brings (I know you understand the difference, PC, but others might not). The peace Satan brings is a dulling of our senses and conscience- the peace the Holy Ghost brings is an alleviation of guilt and a profound, abiding joy.I've always thought that one important purpose the scriptures provide is giving us quantifiable actions (paying tithing, serving one's fellow man, submitting to shame given us by another, etc.) that lead to the receipt of the peace of conscience that the Holy Ghost brings. Satan encourages us to be prideful and hate our neighbor, while Christ encourages us to be humble and love our neighbor. Love and hate are two very different feelings that are easily discernible.[/tangent] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desirexnoel Posted August 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 The peace Satan brings is a dulling of our senses and conscience.Sounds like too much advil. XDLol. J/K. I really appreciate you explaining the difference. All I keep hearing is it is the same but different... adding greatly to my confusion. n_n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beefche Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Thank you Maxel. I agree. In fact, I don't think Satan can make us feel peace. I think he uses imitations. We can feel relief, instant gratification, and other things that may feel like peace, but they are fleeting and not as strong a feeling. When I choose to sin, I feel a sense of immediate satisfaction. It's almost like craving chocolate and then getting that fix. You feel good for that moment. But then the guilt and old feelings which made me crave chocolate come into play. With peace from the Lord, it is lasting and stronger. When my mom died, I cried. AFter I cried I felt better but I was still really sad and grieving. On the day of her funeral, I prayed for the Comforter--I needed Him. He came to me and the overwhelming feeling peace was absolutely nothing like the relief I felt after my cry before. The peace filled me and it has lasted even to this day when I think about my mom and miss her (she died 2.5 yrs ago). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxel Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Sounds like too much advil. XD Actually, that's a really good analogy. Let me see if I can bring it farther with profit:When a person sins, it does a damage to his soul (like receiving a physical cut damages one's body). Satan and the Holy Ghost offer different treatments: Satan offers advil to dull the pain but offers no lasting treatment. Ultimately, the game of covering up the symptoms will allow the wound to fester and maybe become deadly to one's soul. The Holy Ghost, however, offers more comprehensive treatment that strikes at the heart of the pain. Through repentance, the wound can be mended just like a physical wound. Until the wound heals, the Holy Ghost offers a resounding peace that swallows up the pain in the joy of Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desirexnoel Posted August 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Actually, that's a really good analogy. Let me see if I can bring it farther with profit:When a person sins, it does a damage to his soul (like receiving a physical cut damages one's body). Satan and the Holy Ghost offer different treatments: Satan offers advil to dull the pain but offers no lasting treatment. Ultimately, the game of covering up the symptoms will allow the wound to fester and maybe become deadly to one's soul. The Holy Ghost, however, offers more comprehensive treatment that strikes at the heart of the pain. Through repentance, the wound can be mended just like a physical wound. Until the wound heals, the Holy Ghost offers a resounding peace that swallows up the pain in the joy of Christ.I didn't know my advil remark could be so deep. XDThank you though. I completely understand everything you said and it makes some more sense to me when put like that. n_n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 That could be a deep complicated question. We evangelicals see Satan as a renegade angel, who tried to overthrow God. His mission is the steal, kill and destroy. Jesus warned Peter that Satan wanted to sift Peter like wheat. He's also the acuser of the bretheren. No, we don't believe he is our brother. Angels and humans are not kin--other than that we are fellow servants of the Most High.How was he going to steal, kill, and destroy?Who was he going to steal from, kill, or destroy?And I'd like a little better answer as to why than "He wanted God's power."Spill the beans, PC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 satan can make you feel the same feeling God can.Why is it that satan has never made me feel any one way or another?Does he just focus on other people, but not me... or what's the deal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desirexnoel Posted August 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Why is it that satan has never made me feel any one way or another?Does he just focus on other people, but not me... or what's the deal?No clue. That is just what a friend in the church said, and his father was the bishop for a few years... so as far as I know he had a reason for feeling that way. He is a smart boy and doesn't usually say anything without a reason.I am sorry for burdening you guyz with this question but he is off on a mission so I can't really ask him and I don't want to bother him with something he probably wont remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Why is it that satan has never made me feel any one way or another?Does he just focus on other people, but not me... or what's the deal? Oh please hold me back..don't let me reply to that..if I do I will just say the devil made me do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 How was he going to steal, kill, and destroy?Who was he going to steal from, kill, or destroy? Christians, the church, Peter himself.And I'd like a little better answer as to why than "He wanted God's power."Spill the beans, PC. He wanted revenge, vindication, victory, and yes power. He wanted to be God. Since he failed, he wanted to destroy God's people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Oh please hold me back..don't let me reply to that..if I do I will just say the devil made me do it. If the Spirit is prompting you sister, you've no choice but to obey! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desirexnoel Posted August 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 If the Spirit is prompting you sister, you've no choice but to obey! !! No choice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Christians, the church, Peter himself.He wanted revenge, vindication, victory, and yes power. He wanted to be God. Since he failed, he wanted to destroy God's people.According to Evangelical belief, Christians didn't exist yet and neither did the church.Revenge for what?Vindicated for what?Who did he lie to in heaven? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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