LDS Faith Monotheistic?

[Guest Believer_1829]

This is a black, white issue. No guessing necessary. Widely held beliefs leave a trace. The Church doesn't believe something and then systematically hide all traces of it.

You can pretend and make excuses all you like, even imply that I am lying (which you could prove in a second if what you were saying were true)... but we both know that this thread has continued day after day after day you you have done nothing and will do nothing to back up your fabrication.

You made it up.... which you will once again demonstrate by failing to support your claim.

Prediction 11: CAN"T and WON"T.

Maybe if you say it enough times it will magically become true, Snow.

If you want to try to convince everyone here that it was never a widely held belief that Heavenly Father once lived a mortal probation and progressed to Godhood, you go ahead and do that. But the only person you are fooling is yourself.

[Snow]

I am talking about in church. My particular chapel didn't record and publish all of their meetings. When I was in the church I was pretty much confined to the scriptures and New Era and what was said in church for my information because my dad was very strict as to where I got it. I wasn't allowed to search the web for it (but did anyway).

I knew people like you in High School. We called them "bullies" back then.

I know - I can see that you don't like to be questioned. Perhaps calling me names will make you feel better, but in reality, I asked nicely, there is no bullying. And, like I just posted, this is a simple black and white issue. Beliefs are known, and discoverable. Unless you are going to claim that your chapel - by which I suppose you mean ward - was a renegade, lone ward, functioning under the radars and hidden from the stake, then finding documentation of this "widely held" belief is simple. You say you read the New Era. That's a start... anything there?

[desirexnoel]

This is a black, white issue. No guessing necessary. Widely held beliefs leave a trace. The Church doesn't believe something and then systematically hide all traces of it

Did they not change the word "white" in the BoM to "pure" in the 1980's (I think) to hide old beliefs as to how blacks came to be? I know it isn't the same thing, but it kinda messes with your point there a little if you ask me.

[desirexnoel]

I know - I can see that you don't like to be questioned. Perhaps calling me names will make you feel better, but in reality, I asked nicely, there is no bullying. And, like I just posted, this is a simple black and white issue. Beliefs are known, and discoverable. Unless you are going to claim that your chapel - by which I suppose you mean ward - was a renegade, lone ward, functioning under the radars and hidden from the stake, then finding documentation of this "widely held" belief is simple. You say you read the New Era. That's a start... anything there?

Lol. Maybe, but that would make the whole steak renegade. Those crazies

Almost makes me wanna go back knowing they are fighting conformity!

[Snow]

Maybe if you say it enough times it will magically become true, Snow.

If you want to try to convince everyone here that it was never a widely held belief that Heavenly Father once lived a mortal probation and progressed to Godhood, you go ahead and do that. But the only person you are fooling is yourself.

HONESTY ALERT.

Don't change the subject. Any Mormon knows that is or was a widely held belief. No one questions that. I have never questioned that... as you well know.

Let's get back to the subject at hand. The subject that I have posted about over 12 times, clearly, unmistakably.

You claimed that God worshipped His God like we worship Ours.

Prediction 13: Can't and Won't just as you couldn't and didn't.

[Guest Believer_1829]

HONESTY ALERT.

Don't change the subject. Any Mormon knows that is or was a widely held belief. No one questions that. I have never questioned that... as you well know.

Let's get back to the subject at hand. The subject that I have posted about over 12 times, clearly, unmistakably.

You claimed that God worshipped His God like we worship Ours.

Prediction 13: Can't and Won't just as you couldn't and didn't.

Then.... Do you lack a sense of logic?

If God lived a mortality He had a Heavenly Father, if He had a Heavenly Father He worshipped Him, if He worshiped Him He still worships Him because we never cease worshipping our God.

Or do you believe you will stop worshipping your Heavenly Father when you become a God?

[desirexnoel]

1) "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-347)

2) "John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son?" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Page 373, see also Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce R. McConkie, Page 577; Doctrines of Salvation, by Bruce R. McConkie, Page 97-98; History of the Church, by Joseph Smith, vol. 6, Page 476-477)

3) "And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth. And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the face of the waters. And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light." (Abraham 4:1-3)

4) "We must seek earnestly to obey every covenant that we make in the temple. The Lord has said that if we are true and faithful, we will pass by the angels to our exaltation. We will become gods. (Gospel Principles, page 245, see also D&C 132:19–20.)

5) "As shown in this chapter, our Father in heaven was once a man as we are now, capable of physical death. By obedience to eternal gospel principles, he progressed from one stage of life to another until he attained the state that we call exaltation or godhood. In such a condition, he and our mother in heaven were empowered to give birth to spirit children whose potential was equal to that of their heavenly parents. We are those spirit children." (Achieving a Celestial Marriage p 132)

6) "Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people: 1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76). 2. They will become gods. 3. They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family. 4. They will receive a fulness of joy. 5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to his commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36)." (Gospel Principles, page 302)

[Snow]

Did they not change the word "white" in the BoM to "pure" in the 1980's (I think) to hide old beliefs as to how blacks came to be? I know it isn't the same thing, but it kinda messes with your point there a little if you ask me.

No, they did not. It is an absurd statement. Beliefs about "blackness" or "whiteness: are known and understood in the Church. There is no hiding it. There is ample evidence for how Mormons have felt about "blackness." I've got at least three books on the topic and can instantly find page after page after page of it on the internet.

They changed the word, as any Mormon knows, because the word "pure" more accurately conveys how the Church currently feels the passage should be interpreted.

[Snow]

1) "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-347)

Says nothing about God worshipping His God like we worship our. Please stay on topic.

2) "John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son?" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Page 373, see also Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce R. McConkie, Page 577; Doctrines of Salvation, by Bruce R. McConkie, Page 97-98; History of the Church, by Joseph Smith, vol. 6, Page 476-477)

Says nothing about God worshipping His God like we worship our. Please stay on topic.

3) "And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth. And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the face of the waters. And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light." (Abraham 4:1-3)

Says nothing about God worshipping His God like we worship our. Please stay on topic.

4) "We must seek earnestly to obey every covenant that we make in the temple. The Lord has said that if we are true and faithful, we will pass by the angels to our exaltation. We will become gods. (Gospel Principles, page 245, see also D&C 132:19–20.)

Says nothing about God worshipping His God like we worship our. Please stay on topic.

5) "As shown in this chapter, our Father in heaven was once a man as we are now, capable of physical death. By obedience to eternal gospel principles, he progressed from one stage of life to another until he attained the state that we call exaltation or godhood. In such a condition, he and our mother in heaven were empowered to give birth to spirit children whose potential was equal to that of their heavenly parents. We are those spirit children." (Achieving a Celestial Marriage p 132)

Says nothing about God worshipping His God like we worship our. Please stay on topic.

6) "Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people: 1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76). 2. They will become gods. 3. They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family. 4. They will receive a fulness of joy. 5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to his commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36)." (Gospel Principles, page 302)

Says nothing about God worshipping His God like we worship our. Please stay on topic.

[Snow]

Then.... Do you lack a sense of logic?

If God lived a mortality He had a Heavenly Father, if He had a Heavenly Father He worshipped Him, if He worshiped Him He still worships Him because we never cease worshipping our God.

Or do you believe you will stop worshipping your Heavenly Father when you become a God?

So now it comes out - doesn't it. You have no evidence that it was ever a widely held belief. You have simply reasoned it out, that according you your sense of logic, that it makes sense.

How much nicer it would have been if you had simply stated the truth of it to begin with, not that it was widely taught, but rather that it made sense to you. Fine.

No offense Believer, but I don't take logic lessons from people who believe that separation of the continents occurred 5-10 thousand years ago.

[desirexnoel]

1) "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-347)

Who exalted him?

2) "John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son?" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Page 373, see also Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce R. McConkie, Page 577; Doctrines of Salvation, by Bruce R. McConkie, Page 97-98; History of the Church, by Joseph Smith, vol. 6, Page 476-477)

So why didn't he have to worship his father?

3) "And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth. And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the face of the waters. And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light." (Abraham 4:1-3)

I'll give you that one, but it clearly shows more then one which is actually the topic of the thread, so I am still kinda on topic... more so then this worshiping topic...

4) "We must seek earnestly to obey every covenant that we make in the temple. The Lord has said that if we are true and faithful, we will pass by the angels to our exaltation. We will become gods. (Gospel Principles, page 245, see also D&C 132:19–20.)

Is that not how God became God? Does this not include worship?

5) "As shown in this chapter, our Father in heaven was once a man as we are now, capable of physical death. By obedience to eternal gospel principles, he progressed from one stage of life to another until he attained the state that we call exaltation or godhood. In such a condition, he and our mother in heaven were empowered to give birth to spirit children whose potential was equal to that of their heavenly parents. We are those spirit children." (Achieving a Celestial Marriage p 132)

Who was he obedient to? Again, did he not have to worship that being?

6) "Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people: 1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76). 2. They will become gods. 3. They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family. 4. They will receive a fulness of joy. 5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to his commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36)." (Gospel Principles, page 302)

This kind of ties a lot of points together, but I will admit that it is probably closer to the original topic.

[Guest Believer_1829]

So now it comes out - doesn't it. You have no evidence that it was ever a widely held belief. You have simply reasoned it out, that according you your sense of logic, that it makes sense.

How much nicer it would have been if you had simply stated the truth of it to begin with, not that it was widely taught, but rather that it made sense to you. Fine.

No offense Believer, but I don't take logic lessons from people who believe that separation of the continents occurred 5-10 thousand years ago.

I have officially lost any ounce of respect I might have tried to retain towards you... I just see you as a now.

[desirexnoel]

I have officially lost any ounce of respect I might have tried to retain towards you... I just see you as a now.

There are so many little faces...

[Gatorman]

desire - Thank you for the evidence backing up Believer. I follow your facts and logic and draw the same conclusions, based on prayer, teachings at church, and the Holy Spirit. Snow generally only appreciates scientific, hands on, fact. Snow has yet to post anything that shows an understanding of true faith and the awesome power it has to overcome and trump man's knowledge with a true understanding of something. I can understand it, partially, because I knew the BoM to be true before I ever read it, had lessons on it, etc. Instead, I had a faith based experience that proved to me, without doubt, that the BoM was true, as was the church. Based on posts, I don't believe some of the forums are capable of such a faith based understanding of something and truly accepting it.

[desirexnoel]

No offense Believer, but I don't take logic lessons from people who believe that separation of the continents occurred 5-10 thousand years ago.

I was taught a separation had occurred although I don't know when. I learnt it in geography class too. I think it was called Pangea or something like that.

[desirexnoel]

desire - Thank you for the evidence backing up Believer. I follow your facts and logic and draw the same conclusions, based on prayer, teachings at church, and the Holy Spirit. Snow generally only appreciates scientific, hands on, fact. Snow has yet to post anything that shows an understanding of true faith and the awesome power it has to overcome and trump man's knowledge with a true understanding of something. I can understand it, partially, because I knew the BoM to be true before I ever read it, had lessons on it, etc. Instead, I had a faith based experience that proved to me, without doubt, that the BoM was true, as was the church. Based on posts, I don't believe some of the forums are capable of such a faith based understanding of something and truly accepting it.

Thank you! Sometimes I wonder what everyone else is seeing. I am glad to know it is the same things I am.

[pam]

Didn't Pangea exist about 250 million years ago? I think Snow stated 5-10,000 years ago.

[desirexnoel]

Didn't Pangea exist about 250 million years ago? I think Snow stated 5-10,000 years ago.

Again, I have no clue when. n_n

[Gatorman]

Thank you! Sometimes I wonder what everyone else is seeing. I am glad to know it is the same things I am.

To be fair, Snow is not the only one like that on the forum. He is just the most vocal and combative. There have been a couple of his posts that actually made sense, but the value was lost in his methods. His recent post about not studying logic from someone who believed that the continents seperated whenever leaves me with a counter point about Snow. I can not accept teachings of faith or religion from someone who appears to have no true faith, only that which they can prove. I truly feel sorry for the individual who demands 'proof' to reach their faith. It was the same slope that I believe Korohor was on. He would only believe if he was granted proof. And, what awesome proof he received.

[Snow]

Who exalted him?

So why didn't he have to worship his father?

I'll give you that one, but it clearly shows more then one which is actually the topic of the thread, so I am still kinda on topic... more so then this worshiping topic...

Is that not how God became God? Does this not include worship?

Who was he obedient to? Again, did he not have to worship that being?

This kind of ties a lot of points together, but I will admit that it is probably closer to the original topic.

The issues IS NOT a test to see if you can craft a series of logical inferencse that build upon one another that ultimately reach some sort of conclusion.

The issue IS is about what is or was widely taught in the Church. That's all. It's not even about whether or not the idea could be true. It's about what was taught. Teachings, in the modern world, leave a trace.

Sure - I could be wrong. I haven't read but a fraction of what has been written about LDS history and beliefs. I'd love to be proven wrong and so learn something new. That doesn't appear likely anytime soon however.

As for you logical chain, there are other possibilities... God was the first to master the principles of physics and so ascend to some supernatural station??? God was created by an absentee deity who did not wish to be worshiped??? God engaged in a cosmic battle and overthrew the previous supreme being??? None of it, including your line of reasoning is particularly logic. Religious beliefs stand outside of logic by and large.

[Snow]

Didn't Pangea exist about 250 million years ago? I think Snow stated 5-10,000 years ago.

Yes - that's the understanding of the scientific community. Believer maintains that it happened in the Old Testament chronology.

[desirexnoel]

To be fair, Snow is not the only one like that on the forum. He is just the most vocal and combative.

I know. There are actually MANY in many forums I am sure with his beliefs. I actually know a lot about the difference between their beliefs and the beliefs of someone who only obtains knowledge from church sources. I was one who only obtained knowledge from church sources, which is why he is making little sense to me in regard to what LDS as a whole believe.

[Snow]

desire - Thank you for the evidence backing up Believer.

I missed that. Could you repost the evidence that it was widely taught that God worships His God?

Is there another thread?

[Gatorman]

Snow - Add my list to the list of people who was taught that Heavenly Father worshiped his Heavenly Father. So, it was widespread enough in teaching that you have numerous people on this forum, from different areas of the world, who were all taught similar things in church. Based on statistical sampling, it would suggest that it was fairly widespread. Granted, the statistical size leaves a large margin of error. For your scientific acceptance, what size statistical pool would you require and what would you consider the appropriate percentage to accept 'widespread'?

[Gatorman]

I missed that. Could you repost the evidence that it was widely taught that God worships His God?

Is there another thread?

No Snow. It is the evidence you don't understand. But, that is okay. I continue to pray for you to understand what is plain and precious to the rest of us.