LDS Faith Monotheistic?

[desirexnoel]

I missed that. Could you repost the evidence that it was widely taught that God worships His God?

Is there another thread?

Did you ignore all of my posts with my questions? Questions that usually logically point to the conclusions most of us draw? Please go back and get it, because I am not reposting it for you.

[Snow]

I know. There are actually MANY in many forums I am sure with his beliefs. I actually know a lot about the difference between their beliefs and the beliefs of someone who only obtains knowledge from church sources. I was one who only obtained knowledge from church sources, which is why he is making little sense to me in regard to what LDS as a whole believe.

No - that's PRECISELY what I am asking for. Church sources. On this topic - that it was a widely held belief/teaching that God worships His God I am asking for Church or Church related sources, nothing else.

Please post any such Church sources.

[HiJolly]

"People may not remember exactly what you did, or what you said, but they will always remember how you made them feel."

—Unknown

[Snow]

Did you ignore all of my posts with my questions? Questions that usually logically point to the conclusions most of us draw? Please go back and get it, because I am not reposting it for you.

You know perfectly well that I didn't because I responded to you post, each and every quote inside your post - none of which was on topic.

Do you have any quotes that ARE on topic?

[desirexnoel]

No - that's PRECISELY what I am asking for. Church sources. On this topic - that it was a widely held belief/teaching that God worships His God I am asking for Church or Church related sources, nothing else.

Please post any such Church sources.

Post number #357

Respond please. Don't ignore.

[desirexnoel]

You know perfectly well that I didn't because I responded to you post, each and every quote inside your post - none of which was on topic.

Do you have any quotes that ARE on topic?

Post number #357 .

Answer the questions.

Thank you.

[Snow]

No Snow. It is the evidence you don't understand. But, that is okay. I continue to pray for you to understand what is plain and precious to the rest of us.

Wrong - this is a black and white issue. Either there is evidence, and it could be posted, or there is not. In those quotes that you are referring to, can you point to the one that says that God worships His God or that such was a widely held belief?

I think that you cannot, and will not.

[desirexnoel]

Visiting a friend today, and I will be late if I don't leave like now pretty much. I will check back later.

[Snow]

Post number #357

Respond please. Don't ignore.

We in the Church believe that honesty is important.

I have read post #357. We both know that it says nothing about God worshipping His God or that it was a widely held belief.

Here is the post as proof.

1) "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-347)

2) "John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son?" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Page 373, see also Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce R. McConkie, Page 577; Doctrines of Salvation, by Bruce R. McConkie, Page 97-98; History of the Church, by Joseph Smith, vol. 6, Page 476-477)

3) "And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth. And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the face of the waters. And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light." (Abraham 4:1-3)

4) "We must seek earnestly to obey every covenant that we make in the temple. The Lord has said that if we are true and faithful, we will pass by the angels to our exaltation. We will become gods. (Gospel Principles, page 245, see also D&C 132:19–20.)

5) "As shown in this chapter, our Father in heaven was once a man as we are now, capable of physical death. By obedience to eternal gospel principles, he progressed from one stage of life to another until he attained the state that we call exaltation or godhood. In such a condition, he and our mother in heaven were empowered to give birth to spirit children whose potential was equal to that of their heavenly parents. We are those spirit children." (Achieving a Celestial Marriage p 132)

6) "Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people: 1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76). 2. They will become gods. 3. They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family. 4. They will receive a fulness of joy. 5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to his commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36)." (Gospel Principles, page 302)

There it is. No guessing necessary. One can read it and see what it say and what it does not say.

[Gatorman]

Wrong - this is a black and white issue. Either there is evidence, and it could be posted, or there is not. In those quotes that you are referring to, can you point to the one that says that God worships His God or that such was a widely held belief?

I think that you cannot, and will not.

Snow, I said again, you refuse to see what I see clearly. Are there specific words in black and white on the page that say it? No. But, by reading and understanding that, if we are like our Heavenly Father, then our Heavenly Father was once like us, then, it is likely that he went through what we are going through. But, you don't want that. You want Korohor's version of proof. So be it. It is pointless trying to explain to you that faith can provide evidence. Also, you are asking for proof that something has been taught in church and may be widespread. That is a statistical question. So, I asked, what type of statistical sampling do you require before you can accept that this was widely taught in church, regardless of what material may have been utilized. Can you answer those questions so I can work on an appropriate statistical sampling to determine how widespread this topic was taught in church, regardless of material?

[Gatorman]

We in the Church believe that honesty is important.

I have read post #357. We both know that it says nothing about God worshipping His God or that it was a widely held belief.

Here is the post as proof.

There it is. No guessing necessary. One can read it and see what it say and what it does not say.

True Snow. With those posts, she refuted half of your original argument, if I remember correctly. However, the question then becomes, if Heavenly Father had a Heavenly Father, what was his path to exhaltation? Did he have a different path? Or, was our path repeated in some form? Was the relationship between son and father changed for our Heavenly Father?

[Snow]

Who exalted him?

That is not the question. The question was whether or not it was a teaching.

So why didn't he have to worship his father?

That is not the question. The question was whether or not it was a teaching.

Is that not how God became God? Does this not include worship?

That is a statement of how WE are deified. The question is about God, not us.

Who was he obedient to? Again, did he not have to worship that being?

You know the answer to that because you posted the quote. The quote clearly indicates that He was obedient to principle, not to a "who."

This kind of ties a lot of points together, but I will admit that it is probably closer to the original topic.

It's not a logic contest. It's about posting evidence or what was taught.

[Snow]

Snow, I said again, you refuse to see what I see clearly. Are there specific words in black and white on the page that say it? No. But, by reading and understanding that, if we are like our Heavenly Father, then our Heavenly Father was once like us, then, it is likely that he went through what we are going through. But, you don't want that. You want Korohor's version of proof. So be it. It is pointless trying to explain to you that faith can provide evidence. Also, you are asking for proof that something has been taught in church and may be widespread. That is a statistical question. So, I asked, what type of statistical sampling do you require before you can accept that this was widely taught in church, regardless of what material may have been utilized. Can you answer those questions so I can work on an appropriate statistical sampling to determine how widespread this topic was taught in church, regardless of material?

Just as I predicted. You cannot point to anything that was said that was on topic.

I could care less about statistics. Evidence that is was widely taught or even taught, but not widely will do. Don't change the subject.

[Snow]

True Snow. With those posts, she refuted half of your original argument, if I remember correctly. However, the question then becomes, if Heavenly Father had a Heavenly Father, what was his path to exhaltation? Did he have a different path? Or, was our path repeated in some form? Was the relationship between son and father changed for our Heavenly Father?

Who cares. I am not asking if you can think up some interesting questions. I am asking for proof that it was taught as was claimed.

That's all.

There is no "half" of my argument. I have no argument, just a single observation.... that none of you can back up the claim that it was taught that God worships His God as we worship God.

[Maxel]

The closest thing I can think of is a statement of LDS Professor Stephen Robinson in How Wide the Divide? that the doctrine of deification doesn't imply that we will ever be completely autonomous and independent from our Heavenly Father. I think that could be construed into 'we will be worshipping our Heavenly Father eternally' (not being autonomous and independent from = worshipping, in one sense).

If we suppose that our Heavenly Father went through the same process as we are now and is not the first of His divine species, then I don't think it's unreasonable to assume our Heavenly Father still worships His Heavenly Father- although I believe we can safely assume our Father's relationship with HIS Father is significantly different from OUR relationship with our Father.

I doubt one quote (that doesn't exactly speak to the manner at hand) counts as satisfactory evidence, but it's the best I personally could think of.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Maxel

[lattelady]

I recognize worship not as lip-service: "I praise you, Heavenly Father," but as what scripture says it is in Romans 12: 1 "I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your SPIRITUAL SERVICE OF WORSHIP." Giving our lives wholly and completely to God.

A few things I've found as I've searched the idea of God worshipping his God. Snow, I get the idea that you're looking for those exact words being quoted somewhere. That's probably not going to happen; but see what you think of these quotes; I'm not telling you what to think, either. I'm simply asking you to read them and see what you think of them; so try your hardest to kindly not attack me in your response. I'm not being contentious or rude to you.

"I tell you more: Adam is the father of our spirits. He lived upon an earth, he did abide his creation and did honor to his calling and priesthood and obeyed his master or lord, and probably many of his wives did the same and lived upon the earth and then were resurrected again to ummortality and eternal life." Brigham Young from Brigham Young Addresses1850-1854 (Vol.2 By Elder J. Watson Sheet 221)

"God and man are of the same race, differing only in their degree of advancement." Gospel Through The Ages p.107 LDS Apostle Dr. John Widtsoe (1872-1952)

"My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get to my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself." Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 p.4 1844

[Gatorman]

Then, let me make it simple for you Snow. Fact - I was taught this idea in church, that Heavenly Father once lived as we live now and had his own path to exaltation. You now have evidence that it is so.

Now, to continue it:

Beliver - Stated that he was taught

Desire - I believe stated she was taught

So, either you will call us liars, which you have done in the past, you will accept that we are telling the truth, or you will choose to ignore it. Any of the above is your own decision. Fact is, we have provided evidence of personal experience that this was taught. Since you said it did not have to be widespread, you know have THREE witnesses of it being taught.

Who cares. I am not asking if you can think up some interesting questions. I am asking for proof that it was taught as was claimed.

That's all.

There is no "half" of my argument. I have no argument, just a single observation.... that none of you can back up the claim that it was taught that God worships His God as we worship God.

[Snow]

Then, let me make it simple for you Snow. Fact - I was taught this idea in church, that Heavenly Father once lived as we live now and had his own path to exaltation. You now have evidence that it is so.

Picture me laughing.

You claiming that you were taught that God was once as we are had a path to exhalation is evidence of nothing other than it supports the idea that you claim that you were taught it.

Picture me still laughing.

The issue - for the 25th time - is not about whether you claim you were talk God was once a man and had a path. The issue is about whether it was a widely taught belief that God worshiped His God like we worship ours. That's it.

Still laughing here.

Now, to continue it:

Beliver - Stated that he was taught

Desire - I believe stated she was taught

So, either you will call us liars, which you have done in the past, you will accept that we are telling the truth, or you will choose to ignore it. Any of the above is your own decision. Fact is, we have provided evidence of personal experience that this was taught. Since you said it did not have to be widespread, you know have THREE witnesses of it being taught.

Please stay on topic.

Got any evidence? Any at all?

Let me make it easy for you. You claim of whether you were taught God was a man matters not one iota. That is a different subject. This subject is about God worship His God. Evidence will consist of scripture, GC talks, Church published books, lessons, magazine articles, 1st Presidency letters, old quorum minutes, Encyclopedia of Mormonism articles. etc... NOT your personal claims about what you believe on another topic - God's mortal life.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Snow

[Hemidakota]

Didn't Pangea exist about 250 million years ago? I think Snow stated 5-10,000 years ago.

Unless someone was there to view it, unlikely.

[Snow]

Unless someone was there to view it, unlikely.

To be clear - I did not make the absurd and ludicrous statement that the continents separated 5-10k years ago. That was someone else.

[Gatorman]

Here is your recent post Snow. You asked simply to back up the claim that it was taught. Either you are calling us liars or we have provided you evidence that you choose not to accept. I have backed up the claim with a personal witness. Either you can accept this as fact, you can call me a liar, or you can ignore it. Regardless, as you have done repeatedly, you will choose not to accept what others have. This is proof of what you have asked for.

Who cares. I am not asking if you can think up some interesting questions. I am asking for proof that it was taught as was claimed.

That's all.

There is no "half" of my argument. I have no argument, just a single observation.... that none of you can back up the claim that it was taught that God worships His God as we worship God.

[Hemidakota]

To be clear - I did not make the absurd and ludicrous statement that the continents separated 5-10k years ago. That was someone else.

True but then, it can happen in a single day [timespan less than a 1000-years of man time]as indicated in the D&C when the earth will return to its original environment as designed.

I do agree though, we are not yet privy, as a church, to the knowledge on details of what happened until the last portion of the sealed plates are translated.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Gatorman]

To be clear, the following is a factual statement, based on personal experience.

In a previous Sunday School class, quite likely Gospel Principles, as I am a convert to the church, we were taught that Heavenly Father's progression was like unto our own. It was taught that it was a cycle. It was taught that Heavenly Father had the same progression as we did.

I can not find the material for Gospel Principle online yet. However, I have spoken to another convert who was taught the same thing, but only in Gospel Principle. I wonder if the others who have been taught this were perhaps taught in Gospel Principle.

Point is, you can close your eyes all you want, but, I have provided a witness that this was taught. You initially did not ask for anything beyond that. The fact is, it has been taught. You can provide no evidence or witness otherwise, as that would be proving a negative. So, you are left with either accepting my witness that this was taught, in at least one instance, or choosing to ignore the witness. Either way, it is not my issue. I have provided evidence and witness and what you do with it is your own agency.

[Snow]

Here is your recent post Snow. You asked simply to back up the claim that it was taught. Either you are calling us liars or we have provided you evidence that you choose not to accept. I have backed up the claim with a personal witness. Either you can accept this as fact, you can call me a liar, or you can ignore it. Regardless, as you have done repeatedly, you will choose not to accept what others have. This is proof of what you have asked for.

Picture me laughing really hard.

And picture this: You are a college student with a final exam or project, namely to prove that a claim is true, specifically that a widespread LDS teaching was that God worships his God.

You turn in, not evidence that there was a wide spread teaching that God worships his God, but rather, you turn in a statement that says YOU were taught that God was once mortal and had a path to Godhood and then say you have two classmates that agree.

The professor reminds you that the topic was not about what you claim about God being mortal and you answer that you have proved what was asked for.

Now picture the professor laughing his head off, stamping your forehead with an "F" and suggesting that you pursue a career in retail.

[Snow]

To be clear, the following is a factual statement, based on personal experience.

In a previous Sunday School class, quite likely Gospel Principles, as I am a convert to the church, we were taught that Heavenly Father's progression was like unto our own. It was taught that it was a cycle. It was taught that Heavenly Father had the same progression as we did.

I can not find the material for Gospel Principle online yet. However, I have spoken to another convert who was taught the same thing, but only in Gospel Principle. I wonder if the others who have been taught this were perhaps taught in Gospel Principle.

Point is, you can close your eyes all you want, but, I have provided a witness that this was taught. You initially did not ask for anything beyond that. The fact is, it has been taught. You can provide no evidence or witness otherwise, as that would be proving a negative. So, you are left with either accepting my witness that this was taught, in at least one instance, or choosing to ignore the witness. Either way, it is not my issue. I have provided evidence and witness and what you do with it is your own agency.

That's a nice story. Thank you.

Do you have anything about the topic being discussed here?