bytebear Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 He has not been a God for all eternity. Not if you take the KFD as doctrine at least. Unless by God you mean 'man'? If that were the case then -we- would also have been Gods for all eternity (using 'God' as our species).When I say "he has not been a God" I mean he has not always been at the station of a God.That depends on how you define eternity. If eternity is timeless, with no beginning and no end (as Joseph Smith described it in the same speech) then God has always been, regardless of our limited understanding, and limitations living with the restrictions of time.This is a lesser quoted part of the King Follett sermon, which if the sermon were canonized would also be considered true:"I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man - the immortal part, because it had no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two; then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man. AS THE LORD LIVETH, IF IT HAD A BEGINNING, IT WILL HAVE AN END. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say the spirit of man had a beginning, PROVE that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desirexnoel Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 What about things like general conferences and the prophets words and stuff? If it isn't cannon is it just a speech given every 6 month? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmy- Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) That depends on how you define eternity. If eternity is timeless, with no beginning and no end (as Joseph Smith described it in the same speech) then God has always been, regardless of our limited understanding, and limitations living with the restrictions of time.This is a lesser quoted part of the King Follett sermon, which if the sermon were canonized would also be considered true:"I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man - the immortal part, because it had no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two; then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man. AS THE LORD LIVETH, IF IT HAD A BEGINNING, IT WILL HAVE AN END. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say the spirit of man had a beginning, PROVE that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true."Yes, this is correct. But he also states that men (us) exist in like manner. Another quote.."My [Heavenly] Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father" Edited August 22, 2009 by bmy- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lattelady Posted August 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 For the record, would it be safe to say there is some disagreement amongst members regarding whether God has been God for all eternity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 All LDS believe our Father in Heaven has been God for all eternity.This is where we discuss "all eternity."Mosiah 3: 5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases. Alma 13: 7 This high priesthood being after the order of his Son, which order was from the foundation of the world; or in other words, being without beginning of days or end of years, being prepared from eternity to all eternity, according to his foreknowledge of all things— Moroni 8: 18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity. Eternity is an interesting study. On the surface we think we know what it means. But, it meant more to the Book of Momron writers.1 Nephi 10: 19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round. Alma 7: 20 I perceive that it has been made known unto you, by the testimony of his word, that he cannot walk in crooked paths; neither doth he vary from that which he hath said; neither hath he a shadow of turning from the right to the left, or from that which is right to that which is wrong; therefore, his course is one eternal round. Alma 37: 12 And it may suffice if I only say they are preserved for a wise purpose, which purpose is known unto God; for he doth counsel in wisdom over all his works, and his paths are straight, and his course is one eternal round. The terms "from eternity to all eternity" and "one eternal round" cause us to pause and reflect about what it might mean. I don't think it means forever in the sense many think of. It sounds more like a measurement of a great period of time, more than we can comprehend, one that can be measured to God and distinguished one from another. Again, not measurable by man, but measurable by God.There is no doubt that the family of God extends to infinity, wherever that may be. It is logical and probable to think of eternity as a generation to God. At least that's how I keep it straight in my small, finite brain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthiechan Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 He has not been a God for all eternity. Not if you take the KFD as doctrine at least. Unless by God you mean 'man'? If that were the case then -we- would also have been Gods for all eternity (using 'God' as our species).When I say "he has not been a God" I mean he has not always been at the station of a God.Was Jesus Christ not a God before he came down to earth and received a body? A body is not required to manipulate the elements otherwise Christ would not have been able to create the Earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lattelady Posted August 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Justice, you said that "all LDS believe our Father in Heaven has been a God for all eternity." Does "bmy" believe that? His recent post said, "He has not been a God for all eternity. Not if you take the KFD as doctrine at least." I would like to hear from bmy on that subject--I haven't yet gotten the firm impression that ALL LDS believe God has been a God for all eternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthiechan Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 ruthiechan, I do not agree that our Father in Heaven was the first of such beings throughout all time and eternity. I believe there are an infinite number of earths, Gods, and man. God is trying to perpetuate His species in the same manner it was taught to Him, in the same manner it has always been accomplished.Forever is a long time to try to comprehend. But, if God just now decided to create man, what was He doing for an eternity? Logic suggests since God has always been here, meaning the race, then man has always been here.Either that, or we are not children of Heavenly Parents.He showed up here to create this heaven and earth. I can't believe it was the first time it was ever done throughout all eternity.A circle has to start somewhere before it becomes a circle. It starts with a single point and then moves in perfect circular motion and goes back to the starting point, and then it does it over and over again. As the creation of the circle is repeated over and over again it becomes bolder, deeper and richer in color. Maybe our Father was not the first, but I believe he was. In Moses it is explained that there are worlds many, made by our own God. This is not the only planet our Father has created, he has created many, but only gave Moses information on our Earth. We are not the first. Also, we were spirits before we came here, and had to grow and learn before we could even think about taking the step into mortality. How long did it take us to go from unformed intelligences to individual spirits that our bodies now house? We had agency in our pre-earth existence. If that were not so Lucifer would not have been able to choose to go a different way. What sort of things did we have to go through to be ready for the challenge of mortality?If I am right, and Heavenly Father was the first God, then there's no way he was doing nothing until now. And even if I am wrong, there must be a starting point, a first God that led the other intelligences into doing something beyond existing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 there must be a starting point, a first God that led the other intelligences into doing something beyond existing.That there "had" to be a first is an opinion. There didn't have to be a first. The alternative is that things as are they always have been. There have always been Fathers and Mothers perfecting their children. This is something the human mind has difficulty wrapping around. If you ponder deeply you can catch glimpses of the infinite. Just as an infinite line travels in 2 directions forever, so has the family of man, or God.Tell me why you think there had to be a first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Justice, you said that "all LDS believe our Father in Heaven has been a God for all eternity." Does "bmy" believe that? His recent post said, "He has not been a God for all eternity. Not if you take the KFD as doctrine at least." I would like to hear from bmy on that subject--I haven't yet gotten the firm impression that ALL LDS believe God has been a God for all eternity.What I'm saying is that what is being questioned is the definition of all eternity.Those scriptures I posted, if you read them, throw some confusion on what "all eternity" may mean exactly.I'm suggesting you might get an answer faster if you ask what eternity means. Some think it means infinity, while some believe it is a period of time only God can measure, or a generation.If you do not separate those 2 definitions then all LDS will believe God was/is God for all eternity... even -bmy, because people believe it to mean different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lattelady Posted August 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 The quote that was made was "all LDS believe our Father in Heaven has been a God for all eternity." That has been now debated. There is confusion on the word "eternity", so let's ask it a different way. Would all members agree that Heavenly Father was once a man like you, but through obedience was exalted to Godhood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytebear Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 The "through obedience" part is a stickler. We just don't know how God got into that eternal circle, but he is there, and since the ring has no beginning and no end, He is eternal, he is without beginning and without end. That's the point Joseph Smith was making. If you have no end, then you can have no beginning. But we are linear thinkers, so we put human restrictions and "musts" and "cannots" into the realm of God, but I don't think God thinks like us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lattelady Posted August 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Bytebear, okay...scratch the "through obedience" part. Was Heavenly Father once a man like you? (assuming you're a man and not a woman) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palerider Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 After reading thru this thread...I think several could use this link to help understand our belief.... Mormon Answers (LDS FAQ): The Divine Potential of Human Beings - or Do Mormons Believe They Can Become Gods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Believer_1829 Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 After reading thru this thread...I think several could use this link to help understand our belief.... Mormon Answers (LDS FAQ): The Divine Potential of Human Beings - or Do Mormons Believe They Can Become Gods?Latte is not asking whether WE become Gods, she is asking whether God once once, like us, in a mortality and progressed to become what He is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lstinthwrld Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 What I'm saying is that what is being questioned is the definition of all eternity.Those scriptures I posted, if you read them, throw some confusion on what "all eternity" may mean exactly.I'm suggesting you might get an answer faster if you ask what eternity means. Some think it means infinity, while some believe it is a period of time only God can measure, or a generation.If you do not separate those 2 definitions then all LDS will believe God was/is God for all eternity... even -bmy, because people believe it to mean different things.This is much too convenient of an answer. The question posed was simple Please answer it without dodging or trying to dodge it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palerider Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Latte is not asking whether WE become Gods, she is asking whether God once once, like us, in a mortality and progressed to become what He is now. did not direct that post at her....I did direct it at some who have posted here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palerider Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 there are some who still need to read this....LDS FAQ: The Oneness and Unity of God -- Questions about God, the Trinity, and LDS (Mormon) Doctrine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Thanks Pale. That was an interesting read. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 (edited) This is much too convenient of an answer. The question posed was simple Please answer it without dodging or trying to dodge it.If you don't believe the scriptures I posted are scripture then it would seem convenient.If you believe as I do, that those are scriptures, then it isn't dodging, it's using truth to answer your question. It just so happens you don't believe it, so... here we are.If nothing else, using those scriptures, maybe you can see why I believe the way I do? Edited August 23, 2009 by Justice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lattelady Posted August 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Justice, the scriptures that you used that spoke of eternity used just that word. Eternity. Using those scriptures, I cannot understand your logic. If we're going to use the "truth of scripture" as a basis, then why are you putting the spin of your own interpretation on it? When has the word eternity ever meant a "generation"? If everyone is allowed to make words mean what they want them to mean, then there will be as many spins on your church's doctrine as their are members of your church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 How do you explain "from eternity to all eternity?" That's not just using the word eternity, as you suggest. It's using it in a phrase, comparing 2 eternities, moving from one to another. It's not the same as saying "for all eternity," at least not to me.You call it a spin to give it a negative connotation, but I call it an understanding. I try to use the words as they appear to try to understand what is being said. I learned a long time ago not to force my understanding on the words. That's the fastest way to misinterpret scripture. God does not think the same way we do. I find it very likely He does not view "infinite" or "eternal" the same way we so, being that our minds are finite and our understanding quite limited. I have to try my best to see how and why someone who is eternal would say "from eternity to all eternity."You're not the only person who doesn't see my logic. And, you're right, understanding words differently will lead to different understandings. That's just the way of it.However, I still believe that the members of the LDS Church, by and large, believe the basic principles of the gospel more uniformly than any other religion I've come in contact with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Believer_1829 Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 How do you explain "from eternity to all eternity?" That's not just using the word eternity, as you suggest. It's using it in a phrase, comparing 2 eternities, moving from one to another. It's not the same as saying "for all eternity," at least not to me.You call it a spin to give it a negative connotation, but I call it an understanding. I try to use the words as they appear to try to understand what is being said. I learned a long time ago not to force my understanding on the words. That's the fastest way to misinterpret scripture. God does not think the same way we do. I find it very likely He does not view "infinite" or "eternal" the same way we so, being that our minds are finite and our understanding quite limited. I have to try my best to see how and why someone who is eternal would say "from eternity to all eternity."You're not the only person who doesn't see my logic. And, you're right, understanding words differently will lead to different understandings. That's just the way of it.However, I still believe that the members of the LDS Church, by and large, believe the basic principles of the gospel more uniformly than any other religion I've come in contact with.JW's and Adventist are very uniform in their belief systems, and I am sure I could think of some more, but it's 11 pm and I'm tired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rameumptom Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 I wouldn't really say a "family of Gods" as the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are all one God.You would say that, but then you aren't LDS. So, in LDS parlance on an LDS website, "family" of Gods is correct. Besides, if God makes us gods, then there are still a family of Gods. After all, St Athanasius stated that God became man so that man could become god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rameumptom Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Justice, the scriptures that you used that spoke of eternity used just that word. Eternity. Using those scriptures, I cannot understand your logic. If we're going to use the "truth of scripture" as a basis, then why are you putting the spin of your own interpretation on it? When has the word eternity ever meant a "generation"? If everyone is allowed to make words mean what they want them to mean, then there will be as many spins on your church's doctrine as their are members of your church. Because you are using the modern definition of "eternity." Ancient peoples did not have clocks or calendars. For them, time was cyclical. They measured it by the seasons: planting and harvest. They understood Creation and Death in this manner. So, Justice's use of the term "eternity" in a cyclical form is very applicable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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