lattelady Posted August 20, 2009 Author Report Posted August 20, 2009 So, I think in fairness, b_1829 was just trying to get a straight answer and was getting bullied and talked down to by Snow. I understand that moderators can't be omnipresent, but I do wonder why some behaviors are allowed, while other simple questions are pounced on.
bytebear Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 I think Scripture says it IS God's word--otherwise, how would we know whether to trust it? In the D&C 1:37-39 it says, "Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled. What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away; but shall ALL befulfilled, WHETHER BY MY OWN VOICE, OR BY THE VOICE OF MY SERVANTS, IT IS THE SAME." [caps mine]The interesting thing about this statement, is it doesn't tell you what is true and what isn't. It instead tells you to search them out and prove them. It isn't a statement of fact as much as it is a challenge to see if God's words will be fulfilled.
bytor2112 Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 I think Scripture says it IS God's word--otherwise, how would we know whether to trust it? In the D&C 1:37-39 it says, "Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled. What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away; but shall ALL befulfilled, WHETHER BY MY OWN VOICE, OR BY THE VOICE OF MY SERVANTS, IT IS THE SAME." [caps mine]A wonderful aspect of our faith is that not only do we have a living Prophet that leads and directs the Lord's church by revelation, but we are entitled to revelation as well. We are to read, ponder and pray......and seek confirmation by the Holy Spirit. It is the witness of the Holy Spirit that lead us to greater understandings of Eternal truths..........the things of God can only be understood by the power of the Holy Ghost.
lattelady Posted August 20, 2009 Author Report Posted August 20, 2009 I understand it a totally different way. I think it's telling the reader what is true--"what I the Lord have spoken" and that His words will ALL be fulfilled, and that the words of His servants "the voice of my servants" they will be fulfilled the same as His--all of them. It says to search them BECAUSE ("for") they are "true and faithful"--they can be trusted. Where does it say prove them? It says they will all be fulfilled.
lattelady Posted August 20, 2009 Author Report Posted August 20, 2009 (edited) Do you (as a Church) agree with the post-er who said, "We are not men who will be turned into Gods...we literally are Gods. We grow up, that's it--how mature we get--will depend on us." Is this taught? Edited August 20, 2009 by lattelady
bytebear Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 I understand it a totally different way. I think it's telling the reader what is true--"what I the Lord have spoken" and that His words will ALL be fulfilled, and that the words of His servants "the voice of my servants" they will be fulfilled the same as His--all of them. It says to search them BECAUSE ("for") they are "true and faithful"--they can be trusted. Where does it say prove them? It says they will all be fulfilled.No, it doesn't work that way, because we cannot always know when a leader is speaking with the "voice of God" or with his own opinion or speculation. When Joseph Smith gave the King Follett sermon, he did not end it with "Thus Sayeth the Lord". In fact, the speech was distinctly not prophetic in tone or language. When you read the D&C and compare it to that sermon, the styles are vastly different.
desirexnoel Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 Whenever he is incorrect he is speaking as a man. Whenever he is correct he is speaking for God...
bytebear Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 Whenever he is incorrect he is speaking as a man. Whenever he is correct he is speaking for God...No. You obviously have not read many of Joseph Smith's revelations. There is a distinctive style to a prophecy which is missing from mere sermons.
desirexnoel Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 No. You obviously have not read many of Joseph Smith's revelations. There is a distinctive style to a prophecy which is missing from mere sermons.Can you give me an example of something that may be thought of as prophesy but is in a different style, and something that is prophesy?Can you provide links as well?Thank you.
bytor2112 Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 Do you (as a Church) agree with the post-er who said, "We are not men who will be turned into Gods...we literally are Gods. We grow up, that's it--how mature we get--will depend on us." Is this taught?Sort of...... we are definitely Children of God and we are all going to be resurrected to a physical body and live forever....is that being a God?
desirexnoel Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 (edited) @bytebear I have to go for now but I will revisit this thread and read your post when I log back on again. Thank you in advance. Edited August 20, 2009 by desirexnoel Another silly typo
bytebear Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 Can you give me an example of something that may be thought of as prophesy but is in a different style, and something that is prophesy?Can you provide links as well?Thank you.I randomly picked something from the D&C. I just clicked on section 25 1 Hearken unto the voice of the Lord your God, while I speak unto you, Emma Smith, my daughter; for verily I say unto you, all those who receive my gospel are sons and daughters in my kingdom. Do you see how this verse is written in the voice of God. not the opinion of Joseph Smith. Just go to Doctrine and Covenants and browse a bit, and you will find many examples of this style.
lattelady Posted August 20, 2009 Author Report Posted August 20, 2009 "The Articles of Faith", Talmage p.430 "We believe in a God who is Himself progressive...whose perfection consists in eternal advancement--a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is their heritage to share. In spite of the opposition of sects, in the face of direct charges of blasphemy, the Church proclaims the ETERNAL TRUTH: 'AS MAN IS, GOD ONCE WAS; AS GOD IS, MAN MAY BE." {caps mine}
bytebear Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 "The Articles of Faith", Talmage p.430 "We believe in a God who is Himself progressive...whose perfection consists in eternal advancement--a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is their heritage to share. In spite of the opposition of sects, in the face of direct charges of blasphemy, the Church proclaims the ETERNAL TRUTH: 'AS MAN IS, GOD ONCE WAS; AS GOD IS, MAN MAY BE." {caps mine}Wonderful concept, but not canon.
lattelady Posted August 20, 2009 Author Report Posted August 20, 2009 I'm reading from that that your Church proclaims you can become a God.
Kawazu Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 "The Articles of Faith", Talmage p.430 "We believe in a God who is Himself progressive...whose perfection consists in eternal advancement--a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is their heritage to share. In spite of the opposition of sects, in the face of direct charges of blasphemy, the Church proclaims the ETERNAL TRUTH: 'AS MAN IS, GOD ONCE WAS; AS GOD IS, MAN MAY BE." {caps mine}Howdy,These statements are not canonized scripture. Strictly speaking, LDS people are only bound to accept the Standard Works, (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price).Respectfully yours,Kawazu
bytebear Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 I'm reading from that that your Church proclaims you can become a God.We can become one with God, and as such become God. But there is only one God.Read the following verses from the Bible, and tell me how you iinterpret them:Acts 17: 29 we are the offspring of God.Rom. 8: 17 heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.2 Cor. 3: 18 changed into the same image from glory to glory.Gal. 4: 7 if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.Eph. 4: 13 Till we all come . . . unto a perfect man.Heb. 12: 9 be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live.1 Jn. 3: 2 when he shall appear, we shall be like him.Rev. 3: 21 him that overcometh will . . . sit with me in my throne.
talisyn Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 That may be how you PERSONALLY reconcile the two thoughts, but just the word monotheistic means one God, and the worship of one God. If you are going to become gods and I assume you will be worshipped (otherwise, what's the point of being gods?), then your religion is not in essence monotheistic, right?I worship one God, The God of Gods. It's not at all hard to reconcile. I worship God the Father and revere His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. I will not ever worship Harold Bines down the street if he ever reaches exaltation. Does that make it clearer?
Kawazu Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 I worship one God, The God of Gods. It's not at all hard to reconcile. I worship God the Father and revere His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. I will not ever worship Harold Bines down the street if he ever reaches exaltation. Does that make it clearer?Thank you.
rameumptom Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 Mormons are henotheists. We believe there are many gods, but we only worship one. Early Jews and Christians were also henotheists. We are not monotheists, because the true LDS belief is that we become "heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ." In other words, we become as God is. Satan was thrown out of heaven for rebellion, because he sought to make himself god (or as you put it, "BE a god"). It isn't like that at all. D&C 84 tells us that those who are faithful in their covenants will receive "all that the Father hath" which means they shall be "kings and priests unto God and his Father" (Rev 1:5-6) and reign on Christ's throne. A perfect example of this comes from the Slavonic Book of Enoch (Secrets of Enoch). In this, he is taken up to heaven where the following events occur: 1. He is clothed in white clothing. 2. He is given the name of Metatron, and made one of the archangels. 3. He is placed upon the throne of God, where the other lesser angels begin to obey him as God's heir. This enthronement is also suggested in Revelation and throughout much of the Bible.
bytebear Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 (edited) Mormons are henotheists. We believe there are many gods, but we only worship one. Early Jews and Christians were also henotheists.We are not monotheists, because the true LDS belief is that we become "heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ." In other words, we become as God is. Satan was thrown out of heaven for rebellion, because he sought to make himself god (or as you put it, "BE a god"). It isn't like that at all.D&C 84 tells us that those who are faithful in their covenants will receive "all that the Father hath" which means they shall be "kings and priests unto God and his Father" (Rev 1:5-6) and reign on Christ's throne.A perfect example of this comes from the Slavonic Book of Enoch (Secrets of Enoch). In this, he is taken up to heaven where the following events occur:1. He is clothed in white clothing.2. He is given the name of Metatron, and made one of the archangels.3. He is placed upon the throne of God, where the other lesser angels begin to obey him as God's heir.This enthronement is also suggested in Revelation and throughout much of the Bible.Now, I have to disagree with that. When you say God, who do you mean? Do you mean one being, or do you mean the Father, Son and Holy Ghost? I think you mean the Father only, but scripture is clear that the Godhead is/are God. I extend God to include all exalted beings, and as such, there is one God which encompasses infinite beings, of which we know of three. Edited August 20, 2009 by bytebear
Guest Believer_1829 Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 Why are you asking for doctrinal declarations from someone who is not a prophet, cannot define canon, cannot create scripture or speak for God? Snow is exactly correct. We can speculate all day long on your assertions, but until and unless it becomes canonized, it is meaningless. Now, let me ask you a question. Is the statement "Heavenly Father lived a mortality similar to our" canonized or not? A simple yes or no, please.I was trying to have a discussion with Snow, since he accused me of making up false doctrine. I never claimed it was canonized just clearly widely held belief amoung members of the LDS church.Snow knows that to answer my question in the affirmative means I am correct in my assertion. That is why he finally gave a non-sensical wishy-washy answer that he believes HF "might or might not have lived a mortality." If Heavenly Father went through a mortality, He of necessity has a Heavenly Father of His own, which He would, in fact, worship, because we never cease worshipping our God. I could care less what people believe today, but to say the belief in a HF who passed through a mortality and progressed to Godhood was NOT widely held by LDS people is disingenuous and borders on the realm of being a blatant lie.
Guest Believer_1829 Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 (edited) Howdy,These statements are not canonized scripture. Strictly speaking, LDS people are only bound to accept the Standard Works, (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price).Respectfully yours,KawazuYet "Articles of Faith" is one of the 3 books the church encourages missionaries to have besides the "standard works".Edit: I apologize... apparently "Articles of Faith" has been removed from the "LDS Missionary Reference Library". Edited August 20, 2009 by Believer_1829
pam Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 Strictly speaking, LDS people are only bound to accept the Standard Works, (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price). Yet technically why would we not be bound to accept the Articles of Faith. They are statements of our beliefs.
lattelady Posted August 20, 2009 Author Report Posted August 20, 2009 I must confess, I'm very confused by multiple references to not having to be bound by certain teachings from your own prophets or leaders. In other threads, the whole reason you hold to certain teachings/beliefs (i.e. we should wear white shirt and tie/dresses to church, for example) is because men who you respect and believe are speaking on God's behalf have taught these things. At other times, when church leaders are quoted, you say "we aren't bound to these things." I don't understand what you mean by both views.
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