Please Help Me Understand the Plan of Salvation

[Misshalfway]

Putting it like that sounds more like a lab test. It is kind of off putting in my opinion.

I kind of agree that I would like to know I am taking the test, as opposed to being tested as to whether I would follow an omnipotent being that can't be proven exists.

Isn't there a way to say it that doesn't make us sound like test subjects in a social experiment?

IMO, this kind of information comes thru the Spirit as we start to peice together the purpose of life. When I read Abraham 3:24-25 for example, I started to see why God made the earth and us and then what he intended to do. The scripture says "And we will prove them now herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them."

I have also learned thru scripture that earth life is about gaining knowledge thru experience. No one can really learn soccer unless they get out their and kick the ball. That is all we are doing here as we learn how to navigate this human body thing and all the stuff that goes with learning how to choose well.

The more I learn about the love of God and feel the tender mercies of the Lord in my life, the less I feel the "social experiment"/detached, unloving god stuff. The more we move forward in obedience and faith, the more we understand about this earth life and our purposes in being here. We also learn so much about our potentials and the possibilities if we do obey the Lord.

[HiJolly]

Your post was very useful to me, but there's one aspect I'm afraid I don't understand very well:

The scriptures are clear that Christ was "God" BEFORE mortality.

Doesn't that single admission render all these other statements false?

I don't see how.

*I* don't dictate what makes a God a God. I suspect that neither do you (no offense intended). I was just stating that the scripture is clear and unambiguous--- Christ was God from eternity (that *may* be a play on words); All things were created by Him; All judgement has been given to Him.

While the Church agrees that Christ was not Elohim, we do believe He was Jehovah. *How* that works, I don't know. But I do believe. I think that dealing well with ambiguity is important when considering things of eternity.

Clearly, if Jesus Christ was divine prior to his mortality, "the mortal body thing" is NOT necessary for a soul's development, and there IS indeed another way.

I disagree. Christ DID come into mortality to obtain a body. Therefore, it must have been necessary. The Book of Mormon talks a lot about the "condescension " of God, wherein God Himself came to earth and was made flesh. It's a BIG deal.

I'm confused. What does the word "unfair" mean to you? In my mind, God's Plan of Salvation seems an unfair concept because its requirements are disproportionate to the abilities of human beings. God wants us to accomplish that which is beyond our means; he would like us all to live sin-free lives. If we did so, according to this plan, we'd be guaranteed eternal celestial glory, and none of us would need Christ's atonement.

God, being God, knew that we could not. Why do you think faith is the first principle of the Gospel? It is fair because we needed mortal experience, and that God, knowing we could not obey perfectly, provided a Savior. Heavens rejoice!! Angels sing for gladness!! All are made sinless through the atonement of the Son of Man, the Master of Heaven and Earth!!

Is it not fair, that we must have faith? We all have to have faith, even if it is in our ability to make it through the day.

(In fact, we'd all be eligible for "savior status" ourselves.)

Ooooh, what you said!! Nevermind. It's a secret.

(snip great stuff about atonement) Somehow it seems fair to you that human beings should be punished -- condemned to death or hell, even -- for failing to achieve the impossible? How can you admit that the standards by which human beings are judged are too high, and yet at the same time insist that the plan itself is fair?

It is fair because God's work and glory is to see us succeed. Moses 1

Unfair Aspect #1: God knew we would fail to live without sinning, because we are frankly incapable of doing so. We can't NOT sin. And yet, for some reason there must be punishment when we DO sin, which is something we can't avoid.

Punishment is both a reality in this sphere of existence, and a metaphor as well for something larger, including death, Seeker7. Shhhh.... it's a secret. Doctrine and Covenants 19

Unfair Aspect #2: God also knew that once we failed to meet these ridiculously high standards, there would be nothing we could do to redeem ourselves. (Because apparently, repenting with a sincere heart, asking for forgiveness, and trying hard to do better isn't enough. I thought God was "merciful?") Thus, the atonement of Jesus Christ was necessary.

BEING PUNISHED FOR FAILING TO ACHIEVE THE IMPOSSIBLE = UNFAIR

Right...?

But you will not be punished in any lasting sense, if you believe and repent, which is the entire Gospel 'Good News' message! You could just as well say BEING FORCED TO HAVE FAITH WITHOUT PROOF = UNFAIR , Right...? It is the way of things, in this world.

A Christian must have faith, hope and trust in God, and all is provided.

HiJolly

Edited August 24, 2009 by HiJolly
fixing quotes

[Misshalfway]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seeker7

Your post was very useful to me, but there's one aspect I'm afraid I don't understand very well:

The scriptures are clear that Christ was "God" BEFORE mortality.

Doesn't that single admission render all these other statements false?

I don't see how.

*I* don't dictate what makes a God a God. I suspect that neither do you (no offense intended). I was just stating that the scripture is clear and unambiguous--- Christ was God from eternity (that *may* be a play on words); All things were created by Him; All judgement has been given to Him.

While the Church agrees that Christ was not Elohim, we do believe He was Jehovah. *How* that works, I don't know. But I do believe. I think that dealing well with ambiguity is important when considering things of eternity.

Ok. I have had this question too. I think it has to do with how the Atonement could span thru past and future regardless of when it took place. God's time is not our time.....His ways not our ways. If all things are present to God, I would think that everything with regards to Christ would be the same way. I might even go so far as to say that every one of us would fit in there too. We don't understand because we don't have these views.

[Hemidakota]

The atonement only pertains to this creation of generation of children from our beloved heavenly Parents and does not fill the void of any past or future children who were not partakers of the counsel when the Plan was presented.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Bluejay]

Hi, Seeker7.

Clearly, if Jesus Christ was divine prior to his mortality, "the mortal body thing" is NOT necessary for a soul's development, and there IS indeed another way.

Anybody can act in God's name if they are authorized and empowered by God to do so. As God's Son, Jesus was thus authorized to serve in the capacity of Creator and Lord. This was His calling. But, even Jesus eventually had to come to Earth in a mortal body in order to be exalted.

-----

In my mind, God's Plan of Salvation seems an unfair concept because its requirements are disproportionate to the abilities of human beings. God wants us to accomplish that which is beyond our means; he would like us all to live sin-free lives.

So, let's pretend I'm 5'10" and white (I actually am). If my goal is to become as good at basketball as Michael Jordan, whose fault is it when I fail? Is it Michael Jordan's fault for being so good?

But, if you think it's hard to be like Michael Jordan... The purpose of the Plan of Salvation is to make us into Gods. Seriously: Gods!! So, it shouldn't surprise you that the standards are impossibly high.

Gods cannot simply be "poofed" out of nothing: they must progress from the merest spark of life until they mature as gods. God does not have the power to violate this principle: removing someone's free will also removes their ability to harness the power of Godhood. How could you be a God if you don't even have the ability to make choices for yourself?

-----

BEING PUNISHED FOR FAILING TO ACHIEVE THE IMPOSSIBLE = UNFAIR

Right...?

What you are calling a "punishment for sin" is more accurately described as a "consequence of sin." It's not like getting grounded for drinking your daddy's beer: it's like getting a hangover the next morning.

See, compare your struggle to become like God to a roadtrip. If you don't follow the directions, getting lost is nobody's fault but your own. So, how can it be considered a punishment? It's just a consequence of your own actions.

The beauty of the Plan of Salvation is that the Atonement aids those who are on the path already in reaching the end of the path, which would otherwise be impossible for them to reach. Furthermore, the Plan provides a way to show those who are not on the path how to get back to the path, but they still have to actually go back on their own (remember the free will thing?).

[Traveler]

TRAVELER:

Thank you for the helpful post.

I notice you haven’t said anything here about becoming mortal. You’ve only said that in order to have a fullness of joy and understanding like God, mankind must know the difference between good and evil. I think I understand your clarification well enough, but it does raise one question in my mind: If knowledge of good and evil is all that’s required for becoming like our Heavenly Father, why didn’t he simply teach us about it? I don’t see how gaining a mortal body would be a prerequisite for acquiring that information. Is it that we must experience good and evil for ourselves in order to truly understand their importance? That doesn’t seem reasonable to me either. I know exactly what cancer, starvation, drowning, zero-gravity, and old age are, but I’ve never experienced any of those things. I don’t think people have to experience all things for themselves in order to understand the basic concepts, and that includes good and evil.

..........

If this is about what men desire, then perhaps I should illuminate what I desire. I crave knowledge about the world around me, and the wisdom to make right choices. I want to be happy in life, and I strive to make others happy as well. I long to bring about peace, tolerance, and understanding in my fellow man. But what if, after serious reflection, I decide that your god probably doesn’t exist? What if I then choose not to live by his laws, even though I remain a relatively good person? According to this plan, TRAVELER, what will I get?

Thanks again for your insights.

First - there is a connection between evil and death. Hell is another word for death. Also evil is in essence bondage or captivity. To have knowledge between good and evil we must experience the bitter to know sweet. We must become captive to know freedom. Thus we experience mortality - an experience in which we cannot win, we cannot break even and we cannot get out of the game. Not a pretend intellectual experience – a real experience with real consequences for ourselves and our redeemer.

Also you will have the G-d you desire. You want a G-d that has the power to control you and force you and everybody else under his power to comply to his wishes which is to force all to be "good" and have no choice - many believe in and shall be happy with such a G-d.

Just so you know - the G-d I worship made a great sacrifice of much divine power to create mankind. The G-d I worship would die so you may choose good or evil - even if you do not choose to be with him. It is not for me but for my G-d that I choose him. It is not even for my salvation, my power or my glory that I choose him. It is for him that I give the only thing this is really mine - it is for him I give myself though wrenched and unworthy man that I am. All that I have, I owe him.

What you seek you shall find.

The Traveler

Edited August 24, 2009 by Traveler

[Justice]

Putting it like that sounds more like a lab test. It is kind of off putting in my opinion.

I kind of agree that I would like to know I am taking the test, as opposed to being tested as to whether I would follow an omnipotent being that can't be proven exists.

Isn't there a way to say it that doesn't make us sound like test subjects in a social experiment?

I try to make my answers short and concise (sometimes I epic-fail). And, sometimes that makes for terrible answers.

A better definition is tied to eternal procreation promised to those who keep their covenants. A simple way to say it is just because you don't have to pass a test to be a parent on earth doesn't mean you don't have to pass a test to be a parent in the next life.

I really avoid being more specific than that on an open forum.

[Seeker7]

Thanks for all the replies, everyone. They've been really helpful to me. Here's a summary of the Plan of Salvation as I understand it now:

1.) Before being born into mortality, all human beings existed as spirit children, the literal offspring of God the Father. We humans are not creations of the Father, but rather procreations; and he, God, had no control over what we would be like once we became alive.

2.) There is an eternal, self-existent law stating that whosoever desires to become fully divine must be born into a mortal body and live a life of suffering, surrounded by evil and temptation. This way, humans will come to understand the difference between good and bad, and will learn the importance of doing righteous deeds. Also, enduring hardships enables people to truly appreciate times of joy. Our Heavenly Father did NOT create this law; in fact, he himself must abide by it and cannot change it.

3.) God presented this knowledge, which we now call the Plan of Salvation, to his spirit children in the pre-mortal existence. Part of the plan involved the intervention of a savior to sacrifice himself and atone for the sins of mankind. Jesus volunteered and told God, "Let your will be done." Lucifer also volunteered, but he said, "Instead, let's deny people their right to choose. We should force them to do the right thing so that all may be saved. Also, once this has been done, I would like you to give me the glory for saving everyone." But Lucifer's plan couldn't actually save anyone, because it violated an infinite, unchangeable law that even God the Father knew he must obey. Thus, Jesus was appointed as the savior instead.

4.) A great war was waged in heaven -- Lucifer and his followers pitted against God and the rest of his children. Eventually, Satan and his lot were cast out of heaven. All the human spirits who remained would eventually experience temporal birth as part of the test to achieve godhood.

5.) Adam and Eve were the first two humans on Earth. They lived in the garden in a state of innocence, not knowing right from wrong or good from evil. They didn't even know how to procreate, which was one of the commandments God had given them. The only way for them to keep God's commandment was to transgress a law and eat the forbidden fruit of knowledge, thus making it possible for all other human beings to be born. They did this deliberately and it was NOT considered a sin.

6.) The aforementioned atonement took place when Jesus died on the cross after living a perfectly sinless life. Jesus had to do this because it was another aspect of the eternal law that could not be broken. People's sins could not be forgiven any other way. Although, the matter of how Jesus was able to live a sinless life in the first place is subject to debate and is not fully understood.

7.) If we try our best to keep God's commandments while putting our faith in Christ's atonement, we too will become gods once we die, and we will present to our own offspring the same exact Plan of Salvation that we ourselves underwent -- once again in keeping with the eternal, unbreakable law.

Does that sound right?

[Seeker7]

One thing I still don't fully comprehend:

1.) Why didn't God simply choose NOT to instate the Plan of Salvation? I understand that IF we are to become gods, we must abide by the eternal, unchangeable law, which dictates that a mortal existence is necessary for our progression (except perhaps in the case of Jesus, whom some say was a god prior to his mortality). But during our pre-mortal lives, weren't we happy? Weren't we god-like? What's the harm in simply remaining that way? God lost a third of his spirit children forever, simply by telling them about the plan. Still more will suffer in hell for their mistakes on Earth. And even those who don't go to hell will endure much suffering during their mortal lives. It seems to me that all this plan has done is create a huge amount of unneeded suffering, which will be worth it for some, but not all. We could've just remained in heaven with God, content and pain-free for all of eternity. Why was it BETTER to go through with the plan?

If someone could help clarify that small point for me, I think my understanding of this subject will finally be sufficient. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE!

[skippy740]

One thing I still don't fully comprehend:

1.) Why didn't God simply choose NOT to instate the Plan of Salvation? I understand that IF we are to become gods, we must abide by the eternal, unchangeable law, which dictates that a mortal existence is necessary for our progression (except perhaps in the case of Jesus, whom some say was a god prior to his mortality). But during our pre-mortal lives, weren't we happy? Weren't we god-like? What's the harm in simply remaining that way? God lost a third of his spirit children forever, simply by telling them about the plan. Still more will suffer in hell for their mistakes on Earth. And even those who don't go to hell will endure much suffering during their mortal lives. It seems to me that all this plan has done is create a huge amount of unneeded suffering, which will be worth it for some, but not all. We could've just remained in heaven with God, content and pain-free for all of eternity. Why was it BETTER to go through with the plan?

If someone could help clarify that small point for me, I think my understanding of this subject will finally be sufficient. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE!

Sounds like a Homer Simpson quote would fit here: "Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try."

Well, the idea behind the Plan of Salvation is that SOME will "earn an A" and SOME will "earn a C" and some still will "earn an F".

What would happen if Satan's plan was here? Well, this economic example of socialism (giving everybody the same reward regardless of work) might illustrate the example.

An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before but had once failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan". All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A.

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy.

As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.

The second test average was a D! No one was happy.

When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.

The scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.

All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.

Could not be any simpler than that!

So, we were willing to "take the risk" that we might fail, but we also have a CHANCE at that A! Remember that the hosts of heaven shouted for joy for this plan!

Please note that this is my own way of explaining it. This isn't to say that God is a Republican or Anti-Democrat or anything. It's just an example. Please don't hijack the thread because of my post. Thanks!

[Seeker7]

SOME SHORT RESPONSES TO PEOPLE'S ANSWERS:

JUSTICE:

Thanks for your response.

It would have the same answer as why doesn't God just show Himself to everyone and prove that He exists. The point is we are being tested to see what we will do without the knowledge He exists. If we carried our memories then we would have no need for faith.

I see. Why do you think God gave us the Bible and the Book of Mormon, then? And why do you think he communicates with people through prayer at all? By your logic, it seems God should hide himself from us completely. Then, we would have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever that he exists, and the need for faith would be even greater! YAY FAITH!

BYTEBEAR:

Jesus Christ was divine and without sin, and he was God...

Any thoughts on how he got that way, and why his route was unavailable to the rest of us? Thanks!

HIJOLLY:

Clearly, if Jesus Christ was divine prior to his mortality, "the mortal body thing" is NOT necessary for a soul's development, and there IS indeed another way.

I disagree. Christ DID come into mortality to obtain a body. Therefore, it must have been necessary.

Sorry; I'm still confused. You just said, "Christ was 'God' BEFORE mortality." Then, you made it clear that the rest of us weren't, and you said that the only way for us to achieve godhood is to become mortal. In your own words, "There IS 'no other way.'" But in the same exact post, you stated that the opposite was true of Jesus. You said he was God before becoming mortal, while at the same time stressing that mortality is necessary for divine progression. I still see a contradiction there.

You could just as well say BEING FORCED TO HAVE FAITH WITHOUT PROOF = UNFAIR

Heh, funny you should mention that...

BLUEJAY:

As God's Son, Jesus was thus authorized to serve in the capacity of Creator and Lord.

Aren't we all sons and daughters of God, though, just like Jesus? Why, then, did God not give us all the capacity to live without sin? It sure would've made things a lot less unpleasant!

If my goal is to become as good at basketball as Michael Jordan, whose fault is it when I fail?

Yours, for foolishly thinking you could become as good as Michael Jordan, when you are physically incapable of doing so. (Michael Jordan is pretty awesome... )

Is it Michael Jordan's fault for being so good?

It would only be Michael Jordan's fault if he was the one forcing you to strive for an unreachable goal.

See, compare your struggle to become like God to a roadtrip. If you don't follow the directions, getting lost is nobody's fault but your own. So, how can it be considered a punishment? It's just a consequence of your own actions.

What if I'm severly dyslexic and I literally cannot read the map? Getting lost wouldn't be my fault, because I was physically unable to complete the task that was presented to me. I was bound to fail. I view sin the same way. Humans literally cannot avoid sin. We are physically unable to complete the task of living a sinless life. We are bound to fail. I think whoever gave us that impossible task in the first place is just as responsible for our failure as the person who gave a visual guide to a dyslexic person.

TRAVELER:

You want a G-d that has the power to control you and force you and everybody else under his power to comply to his wishes which is to force all to be "good" and have no choice...

No I don't!

[Seeker7]

SKIPPY740:

Sounds like a Homer Simpson quote would fit here: "Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try."

LOL. What can I say? Homer Simpson is a genius!

Nah, just kidding. I understand what you mean. But don't you think it's a little bit iffy to compare finite consequences to infinite ones? I don't have any kids, though if I did, I would encourage them to keep trying for success despite their failures. But that's only because I know that the consequences of people's everyday failures in this life DO NOT LAST. From bad test grades to bankruptcy, there are ways to overcome our earthly failures.

But what about when the consequences are infinite? There is no way to overturn an eternal judgment once it's been pronounced. In other words, THERE'S NO WAY OUT. That kind of situation is obviously very different from flunking out of calculus or cheating on your spouse. Once again using my imaginary kids as an example: If I knew there would be eternal, inescapable, unchangeable consequences for ANY of my children's actions, and if I also knew that some of them would fail, I would indeed tell them not to try.

If I had kids, I'd love them, and I wouldn't want any of them to suffer.

Well, the idea behind the Plan of Salvation is that SOME will "earn an A" and SOME will "earn a C" and some still will "earn an F".

Yeah, forever! YIKES!

Remember that the hosts of heaven shouted for joy for this plan!

But I can't! I don't remember any such thing. The Veil of Forgetfulness won't let me!

[ryanh]

One thing I still don't fully comprehend:

1.) Why didn't God simply choose NOT to instate the Plan of Salvation? I understand that IF we are to become gods, we must abide by the eternal, unchangeable law, which dictates that a mortal existence is necessary for our progression (except perhaps in the case of Jesus, whom some say was a god prior to his mortality). But during our pre-mortal lives, weren't we happy? Weren't we god-like? What's the harm in simply remaining that way? God lost a third of his spirit children forever, simply by telling them about the plan. Still more will suffer in hell for their mistakes on Earth. And even those who don't go to hell will endure much suffering during their mortal lives. It seems to me that all this plan has done is create a huge amount of unneeded suffering, which will be worth it for some, but not all. We could've just remained in heaven with God, content and pain-free for all of eternity. Why was it BETTER to go through with the plan?

If someone could help clarify that small point for me, I think my understanding of this subject will finally be sufficient. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE!

I could be wrong, but I don’t think there is a canonical answer for your final questions as to why. It’s central to the plan, but our full comprehension of it isn’t central to our salvation. So any answers you get will be more generalities and/or opinions.

What we do know is that our Father in Heaven wanted for us everything He had. And there was only one way for that to happen. There couldn’t be a fullness of happiness for anyone were we to remain in our premortal state.

It’s easier for me to grasp ‘why’ when I try to liken it to my own children. At 22, I suppose you don’t have children yet, but I think you can imagine the same feelings. What if, when we or our children reached 18, 19, 20, 30 years old were not allowed to venture out on their own, get their own place and job, support themselves, etc. Sound like a suitable arrangement? Esp if they were being forced to remain at home and dependent until old age? I don’t really think that the premortal existence is completely analogous, but it helps me make sense of ‘why did we have to leave?’.

I’ve actually thought about this from a different angle for a while now. This is purely my own opinion. But it seems clearly evident that not all children of God were created equal. All were intelligences, but, intelligence doesn’t equal goodness. I suppose in some capacity, Heavenly Father could understand what would be the result for each and every spirit child were His plan to be implemented. Still, even though He knew some intelligences would be lost, that wasn’t a reason to deny the remaining an opportunity for greater happiness.

It seems evident to me that each intelligence had differing levels of goodness. Just look at the people on the earth today. Some are amazing. In recent history there have been the likes of Mother Theresa and Mahatma Gandhi. Others, like Ted Bundy or Charles Manson were so evil it is hard to imagine.

Now, I suppose that Heavenly Father, with His omnipotence could have simply assigned all of His spirit children to a degree of glory according to that which they merited, and given them a body as well. But, I can well imagine that those children assigned to less than the highest degrees of glory might not be able to understand why, or might feel it is not fair.

So, (again, just the way I think about it) the situation was set up where we would come to an earth and have no recollection of our premortal existence, and thereby test the true nature of what we are. Some spirits are stellar. Like Jesus Christ. He was such an amazing spirit that he could hardly be kept from sensing His Father, the work He was to do, and so strong He never sinned. Some of us either aren’t that inherently good, and/or just are not as old/advanced as He is. Some spirits are not so stellar, and prove themselves not worthy to be in the presence of the Father when they are no longer innocent and unknowing.

I see the earthly experience as a great sorter and sifter to show the true nature of who we are. Many of us may not be really faithful spirits, we are weak and fail a lot, but that is not what matters so much IMO. We will have eternities to develop and become stronger. What is important is how much we love our Father, and if our spirits are sensitive to His will and promptings. There may have been countless intelligences faithful enough not to have followed Lucifer in the great war in heaven, but that doesn’t mean they are good enough to merit receiving all that the Father hath. When those ‘in between’ intelligences (not wholly evil, and not wholly good) are put in this test state to see “if they will bdo all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them” Abraham 3:25 (see below), they don’t feel the Father and don’t seek out that which is good.

Anyway, that’s just the way I have thought about it for the last couple weeks as I’ve pondered the plan. Hope it was of use to consider.

THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM CHAPTER 3

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the aintelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the bnoble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast achosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood aone among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and bwe will make an earth whereon these may cdwell;

25 And we will aprove them herewith, to see if they will bdo all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who akeep their first bestate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second cestate shall have dglory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

27 And the aLord said: Whom shall I bsend? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And canother answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will dsend the first.

28 And the asecond was angry, and kept not his first bestate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

[Justice]

JUSTICE:

I see. Why do you think God gave us the Bible and the Book of Mormon, then? And why do you think he communicates with people through prayer at all? By your logic, it seems God should hide himself from us completely. Then, we would have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever that he exists, and the need for faith would be even greater! YAY FAITH!

Have you ever had kids? Do you just give a kid something you don't trust him with? Or, would you start by trusting him with small things, and work up from there?

It takes faith to come to know God through his word. Without His word it would be impossible to know him.

It almost sounds like a sarcastic question. But, maybe the answer is just so obvious to me.

[ryanh]

It would have the same answer as why doesn't God just show Himself to everyone and prove that He exists. The point is we are being tested to see what we will do without the knowledge He exists. If we carried our memories then we would have no need for faith.

I see. Why do you think God gave us the Bible and the Book of Mormon, then? And why do you think he communicates with people through prayer at all? By your logic, it seems God should hide himself from us completely. Then, we would have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever that he exists, and the need for faith would be even greater! YAY FAITH!

Just a quick reply to one part, then I need to do some other chores at home.

The Father didn't want to leave us clueless here on earth without any knowledge. Even with the existance of scriptures, it still takes faith to feel that there might be more to this life than just the mortal life, and to feel and recognize that the scriptures are real, and that God exists. Just because we receive very clear answers to prayers doesn't mean that faith is no longer necessary. I still need lots of faith even though I feel I have received very clear promptings and answers.

[Seeker7]

JUSTICE:

It almost sounds like a sarcastic question. But, maybe the answer is just so obvious to me.

Sorry! I didn't mean to sound sarcastic. The whole "need for faith" thing is an issue of genuine confusion for me, but I guess those questions are better left for a separate thread.

Forgive me if I sounded condescending, though. The truth is, a lot of religious doctrines seem strange to me (which is probably the direct result of being brought up irreligious). I honestly had no clue what Mormons believed until I visited this forum and started doing research on the websites people provided for me. Everyone's been really helpful here, including you! So thanks again. :)

[bytebear]

One thing I still don't fully comprehend:

1.) Why didn't God simply choose NOT to instate the Plan of Salvation? I understand that IF we are to become gods, we must abide by the eternal, unchangeable law, which dictates that a mortal existence is necessary for our progression (except perhaps in the case of Jesus, whom some say was a god prior to his mortality). But during our pre-mortal lives, weren't we happy? Weren't we god-like? What's the harm in simply remaining that way? God lost a third of his spirit children forever, simply by telling them about the plan. Still more will suffer in hell for their mistakes on Earth. And even those who don't go to hell will endure much suffering during their mortal lives. It seems to me that all this plan has done is create a huge amount of unneeded suffering, which will be worth it for some, but not all. We could've just remained in heaven with God, content and pain-free for all of eternity. Why was it BETTER to go through with the plan?

If someone could help clarify that small point for me, I think my understanding of this subject will finally be sufficient. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE!

That is a really good question. Why didn't we just want to stay spirits living with God forever? Similarly why didn't Adam and Eve want to remain in the garden forever? Well, maybe they did remain their for a very long time. We don't know how long they were in the garden before transgressing. But I think it's about the war in heaven. Those that wanted to remain had no opportunity to progress. We are meant to grow, to learn, and there comes a point where we cannot grow or learn any more, and progress to a new state. It's called in the scriptures Estates, and we can either break past our first estate and enter into the second, and similarly we are now in our second estate, and we can choose to progress and learn the lessons of this life, or we can remain stagnant. We have the same choice here and now. We can learn or we can coast. but those who coast will not gain greater blessings.

So, yes, it is better that we go through the plan. Satan and his followers decided not to come to Earth, so they will never have bodies, never experience Earth, and never progress past their current state.

[HiJolly]

HIJOLLY:

Sorry; I'm still confused. You just said, "Christ was 'God' BEFORE mortality." Then, you made it clear that the rest of us weren't, and you said that the only way for us to achieve godhood is to become mortal. In your own words, "There IS 'no other way.'" But in the same exact post, you stated that the opposite was true of Jesus. You said he was God before becoming mortal, while at the same time stressing that mortality is necessary for divine progression. I still see a contradiction there.

Yup. There is a contradiction. We needed mortality before we could become like God, but Jesus Christ didn't. I can't explain it, I don't know the answer. But I'm ok with not knowing, because my experiences with God personally have led to my complete trust and love of Him/Her/Them.

Trying to understand things of heaven and God is fun and instructive, hopefully. BUT THERE ARE LIMITATIONS. The logical process of analysis and conclusion requires that the postulates be 100% perfectly correct.

Good luck with that, when the topic has anything to do with heaven and/or God.

HiJolly

[Seminarysnoozer]

Seeker7, sorry this is so long ....

I think we have to take one step back to help you understand the plan of salvation and that is asking you what you think "bliss" is? For most Mormons I know, bliss is not a finite state achieved. True eternal happiness for most Mormons is to have eternal increase. To be able to have eternal increase all of these things have to happen. If you believe that "bliss" is a single state of being, then I can see how you would ask why didn't God just put us into that state to begin with.

There is one thing God or anyone can't do and that is to realize something has been done before it is actually done. Even knowing that something will happen in the future is not the same as knowing that it has. In other words, you can't get credit for potential. You have to actually complete the act to receive the glory or happiness or reward for that act. There is no glory in saying that I could do this or that. This is why we use the words "bring to pass" a lot. To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

The Celestial Kingdom, at least this is my belief, is going to be full of people like the prophet Joseph Smith, they are always on Gods errand. They don't stop to rest and they find happiness in that work. They hunger and thirst to understand how to have eternal increase, knowing that it comes by actually living and doing His work. Eternal happiness is having the ability to keep growing, (which to me means still working hard) after this life. If you do not want that kind of "lifestyle" so to speak, God will not give it to you. All of our latter day prophets that I know about have that characteristic, they would be hard to slow down, to take a break.

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: "When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave"

Think of all the things that have really made you happy in this life. Sure sitting on a beach in Hawaii under the sun is fun but I've felt most happy when I have achieved something I've worked hard for or watch my kids achieve and meet milestones. To have the ability to continue to grow and have purpose is true happiness. Even if God were able to give you all knowledge the one thing He couldn't give you is the knowledge that you have done something you really haven't. And just knowing that you have the potential is not the same as doing it.

The other part of eternal happiness to understand is family. This part of happiness is easier to understand after you have a temple marriage and have children. God said of those who were not willing to pay the full price of exaltation through full obedience to his whole law: “Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.“For these angels did not abide in my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.” (D&C 132:16–17.)

Understanding what eternal happiness is first, helped me understand the Plan of Salvation, realizing that it's not just a state of mind, its having the same purpose and errand as God. If I stayed in the state I am in right now or even before this life, like being stuck in the 4th grade or something, my happiness is limited. My salvation and fullness of joy comes from getting to that place where I can have eternal increase (family and knowledge) and happiness. "Well done; . . . thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord" (Matthew 25:23). Joy comes from having an increase in our responsibilities.

Seeker7, hope that helps you understand the specifics of the plan.

[slhecker]

Good Questions and Answers. Now my two cents worth: this life allows us to experience the limitations and blessings of TIME as opposed to TIMELESSNESS. Here we can repent because God our Father can not tolerate any degree of sin, its one of the eternal law things that I have yet to understand. Here we have the opportunity to sin and repent of sin to 'change'; God is after all 'unchanging' we could not learn from our mistakes in His presence.

[ryuunohono]

-- a.) What's so bad about eliminating people's free will, if the outcome is that all shall be eternally saved?

-- b.) Why can't Lucifer be given the glory that he asked for? He came up with a more moral plan.

we had a lesson about agency today in elders and you'll find most of your answers about this in 2 Nephi 2

there was also this scripture i cant break it down completely cause its pretty complicated but what i can see is that in verse 30 it says that an intelligence needs to act for itself or there is no existance

D&C 93: 29-30

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.