Please Help Me Understand the Plan of Salvation

[Seeker7]

I feel that my understanding of the LDS "Plan of Salvation" concept might be flawed. Would anyone be willing to help me correct my views? My current comprehension of the subject is as follows:

1.) In the beginning, all human beings lived as God's "spirit children" in a type of pre-mortal existence, also called the first estate.

2.) God saw that although his children were happy, they did not have the "fullness of happiness" he himself enjoyed. The Heavenly Father wanted his children to experience the same complete joy that he did, and he decided that in order for that to be possible, all of his children would have to live mortal lives. So he came up with the Plan of Salvation.

-- a). Why did God's children not have the "fullness of happiness" that he did? In other words, what was preventing them from being completely blissful?

-- b). Why was a mortal body necessary for them to eventually achieve happiness and perfection? Isn't God omnipotent? Couldn't he have just made happy and perfect beings?

-- c.) If a mortal body is needed in order to achieve a flawless, blissful, god-like status, does this mean that God himself was once mortal? Why and how?

3.) The Heavenly Father called a great gathering of all his spirit children, and presented to them the Plan of Salvation. Apparently, God was well aware that none of his children would be able to completely succeed in this plan, so he arranged for a "redeemer" or "savior" to sacrifice himself and pay for everyone's sins.

-- a.) Doesn't the fact that a "savior" was necessary suggest that the plan itself was unfair, and that the standards were set too high?

4.) Two spirit children volunteered to take on the responsibility of the savior: Jesus and Lucifer. Jesus offered to carry out God's plan exactly as he had presented it. Lucifer, on the other hand, wanted to make sure that everyone would be saved by taking away their free will. In return, he asked for glory. A vote was held, and Jesus won the title of "redeemer".

-- a.) What's so bad about eliminating people's free will, if the outcome is that all shall be eternally saved?

-- b.) Why can't Lucifer be given the glory that he asked for? He came up with a more moral plan.

5.) There was a great war in heaven, and Lucifer was cast out, along with 1/3 of all the other spirit children. None of them would be born into mortal bodies, and none of them would receive a chance at redemption.

6.) The next step in the plan was The Fall. God placed Adam and Eve in the garden, the serpent tempted them, they both ate the forbidden fruit, and then they were cast out into a world of suffering and death.

-- a.) Did Adam and Eve volunteer for this position as the first two human beings on earth?

-- b.) Did they eat the forbidden fruit on purpose, so that sin could enter into the world and thereby further along the Plan of Salvation? Or did they not remember anything about their pre-mortal lives, just like the rest of us?

-- c.) If The Fall was a necessary part of God's plan, and he wanted it to happen, did Adam and Eve really sin by eating the fruit?

7.) The Atonement was also part of God's plan. He arranged for Jesus to live a sinless life, so that he could be our perfect sacrifice.

-- a.) If God gave Jesus the power to live a sinless life, why couldn't/didn't he just give that ability to the rest of us as well?

-- b.) Why was it necessary for someone to die for all of humanity's sins anyway? Why can't God just forgive sins? Why must there be blood?

8.) The 2/3rds of us who agreed to go along with God's plan have received mortal bodies and been born into the world (although some are still waiting and some have passed on). That's why all of us are here right now. But a veil of forgetfulness was placed over us, so we can't remember anything about our pre-mortal lives.

-- a.) Why are we not allowed to recall our pre-mortal lives? What would be the harm in that? What's the point of making us all forget?

-- b.) Is it true that some people are born with less privileges than others because they behaved badly during the pre-existence?

I'd really appreciate it if somebody would help me figure these things out. Thank you in advance.

[Kawazu]

Good job formulating some interesting questions.

[Justice]

1.) In the beginning, all human beings lived as God's "spirit children" in a type of pre-mortal existence, also called the first estate.

2.) God saw that although his children were happy, they did not have the "fullness of happiness" he himself enjoyed. The Heavenly Father wanted his children to experience the same complete joy that he did, and he decided that in order for that to be possible, all of his children would have to live mortal lives. So he came up with the Plan of Salvation.

It is worded this way for understanding, but the truth is that exaltation has always happened this way. It's not that He saw or recognized they didn't have a comeplte joy, it's that they couldn't have in that stage of existence. It was his plan from the beginning to allow them to have this chance.

-- a). Why did God's children not have the "fullness of happiness" that he did? In other words, what was preventing them from being completely blissful?

They lacked 2 things: 1) a physical body and 2) the knowledge of good and evil.

We cannot truly be happy unless we are making choices for ourselves. We do not know all the reasons a physical body is necessary, but with it comes the knowledge of good and evil, which if properly understood, may hold the answer.

Genesis 1:

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

Since God placed man in a physical body and they chose to partake of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, we were given the 2 things we lacked. However, by choosing evil man (not Adam's transgression) estranged himself from God. This is why it was planned that Christ would be born and Atone for man's estrangement.

-- b). Why was a mortal body necessary for them to eventually achieve happiness and perfection? Isn't God omnipotent? Couldn't he have just made happy and perfect beings?

Our spirits, the part of us that lives on when we die, is a spirit child of Heavenly Father. He "created" us but did not control what we would be. Just as children born here, they become individuals with minds and wills of their own. We are given agency and the chance to use it to show we will be obedient.

Yes, if we are a "creation" of God like a work of art, He could have made us however He wanted to. We are not.

-- c.) If a mortal body is needed in order to achieve a flawless, blissful, god-like status, does this mean that God himself was once mortal? Why and how?

I believe so, but I don't know many details, and can't answer most of your questions. I believe it is the way it has ALWAYS happened.

3.) The Heavenly Father called a great gathering of all his spirit children, and presented to them the Plan of Salvation. Apparently, God was well aware that none of his children would be able to completely succeed in this plan, so he arranged for a "redeemer" or "savior" to sacrifice himself and pay for everyone's sins.

-- a.) Doesn't the fact that a "savior" was necessary suggest that the plan itself was unfair, and that the standards were set too high?

No. It suggests that mortality is the only way God's plan can succeed. This is complicated, but we are taught some of why. God created this earth for us and placed in mortal bodies with the intention for us to fall. This places a veil or separation between Him and us, and also gives us the ability to die. All are required elements. God granted Adam and Eve the ability, or permission, to use their agency in the Garden of Eden. This physical earth provided a means whereby they would fall and could be redeemed, instead of a permanent fall like Lucifer experienced, since he exercised his agency in God's presence, while not in a physical body able to fall to a mortal state or state of death.

4.) Two spirit children volunteered to take on the responsibility of the savior: Jesus and Lucifer. Jesus offered to carry out God's plan exactly as he had presented it. Lucifer, on the other hand, wanted to make sure that everyone would be saved by taking away their free will. In return, he asked for glory. A vote was held, and Jesus won the title of "redeemer".

-- a.) What's so bad about eliminating people's free will, if the outcome is that all shall be eternally saved?

Some followed Lucifer and thus gave him their agency willingly. Lucifer devised a way to destroy the agency of the remaining who would not choose him willingly. I'll make you work for that one. Alma 12.

[-- b.) Why can't Lucifer be given the glory that he asked for? He came up with a more moral plan.

With one major flaw... his plan cannot save anyone. The only thing his plan allows for is for mankind to remain on earth subject to him for eternity, because he saught to eliminate mortality, which is the only way man can be redeemed from exercising their agency to rebel against God. If you remove mortality, you remove the agency of man AND you prevent a mortal Savior from being born who could shed His blood and reverse the effects of the fall.

5.) There was a great war in heaven, and Lucifer was cast out, along with 1/3 of all the other spirit children. None of them would be born into mortal bodies, and none of them would receive a chance at redemption.

6.) The next step in the plan was The Fall. God placed Adam and Eve in the garden, the serpent tempted them, they both ate the forbidden fruit, and then they were cast out into a world of suffering and death.

-- a.) Did Adam and Eve volunteer for this position as the first two human beings on earth?

Either yes, or they were appointed.

[-- b.) Did they eat the forbidden fruit on purpose, so that sin could enter into the world and thereby further along the Plan of Salvation? Or did they not remember anything about their pre-mortal lives, just like the rest of us?

I believe the former, they partook so they could gain the knowledge of good and evil. I believe the knowledge of good and evil has something to do with the knowledge of procreation. This would then make them able to keep the first commandment they were given.

-- c.) If The Fall was a necessary part of God's plan, and he wanted it to happen, did Adam and Eve really sin by eating the fruit?

No, they transgressed a law. They did not fully understand good and evil yet. Remember, it was one thing they lacked? It wasn't until after they partook that they understood. That was why they then knew they were naked and hid from God.

7.) The Atonement was also part of God's plan. He arranged for Jesus to live a sinless life, so that he could be our perfect sacrifice.

-- a.) If God gave Jesus the power to live a sinless life, why couldn't/didn't he just give that ability to the rest of us as well?

I don't think He "arranged" for Jesus to live a sinless life. Jesus chose to.

-- b.) Why was it necessary for someone to die for all of humanity's sins anyway? Why can't God just forgive sins? Why must there be blood?

From God's perspective, our birth is really death, and His death is really birth. When Christ shed His blood, He was really gaining new life and becoming immortal or reborn. He reversed the effects of the fall, and with the resurrection, is able to pass that on to all mankind.

8.) The 2/3rds of us who agreed to go along with God's plan have received mortal bodies and been born into the world (although some are still waiting and some have passed on). That's why all of us are here right now. But a veil of forgetfulness was placed over us, so we can't remember anything about our pre-mortal lives.

-- a.) Why are we not allowed to recall our pre-mortal lives? What would be the harm in that? What's the point of making us all forget?

What would be the point in taking a test with the answer sheet in front of you?

-- b.) Is it true that some people are born with less privileges than others because they behaved badly during the pre-existence?

Personally, I don't believe so.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Justice

[HiJolly]

I feel that my understanding of the LDS "Plan of Salvation" concept might be flawed. Would anyone be willing to help me correct my views? My current comprehension of the subject is as follows:

Since few Mormons ever agree about everything, I'll toss in my comments. I *do* like your answers, Justice, but I thought two opinions couldn't hurt.

-- a). Why did God's children not have the "fullness of happiness" that he did? In other words, what was preventing them from being completely blissful?

Because we could not comprehend vast concepts, and could not experience vast areas, of the universe. As we explored and developed where we were, this became more and more obvious. My expectation is that there are currently spirits in 'heaven' that STILL don't see a need for mortality, some of them due to Lucifer's involvement. Some simply because they haven't reached that level of understanding & wisdom yet.

-- b). Why was a mortal body necessary for them to eventually achieve happiness and perfection?

The mortal body thing is only the most obvious reason. It had to do with being in this plane of existence. Here, there are limitations upon us that are just huge. Really, really huge. We had no way to comprehend these limitations until we experienced them. These are necessary for our development. There IS "no other way".

Isn't God omnipotent?

He is; but if He *chooses* not to act, some people mistakenly think that it means that He *cannot* act. I don't understand why so many smart people cannot figure out that distinction. It's one of the reasons we have commandments and covenants, to learn that kind of self control, IMO.

Couldn't he have just made happy and perfect beings?

Uhnnh. Here we go. We believe that we are co-eternal with God and that we had no beginning, and will not have an end, as 'people' or 'intelligences' or 'sparks' or 'spirits' or whatever term you want to use. So, no, He already had us around Him, and the nature of His being made it clear that we needed to develop the same way He had.

There is a story about a duckling: If you took a duckling that was still in the egg and you wanted to help it as it began to struggle to emerge from the egg, then you would find that if you did so the duckling would not live, because it did not gain strength by fighting its way out on its own.

That story is a bit too simplistic, sometimes helping is needed (see here: Farming Friends Should You Help Hatching Quail Out Of Their Shell? but still the general wisdom is this (from the linked web site):

"All the books and research says that you shouldn?t help chicks out of the shell and that opening the incubator can affect the rest of the eggs hatching."

So that's the point I'm trying to make.

-- c.) If a mortal body is needed in order to achieve a flawless, blissful, god-like status, does this mean that God himself was once mortal? Why and how?

It does seem to follow, logically speaking. Yet this is not an official doctrine of the Church. it IS a generally understood truth, though, for most LDS. We don't know why and how.

-- a.) Doesn't the fact that a "savior" was necessary suggest that the plan itself was unfair, and that the standards were set too high?

Unfair, no; Standards too high, yes. I think this is one reason that Lucifer got 1/3 of the pre-mortal spirits to see things his way. We did not have the perspective necessary to understand all the reasons why this plan was required. We had to have faith in the Father's plan. Faith is the key to ALL existence, even for God Himself, as paradoxical as that may sound. Joseph Smith said that faith was a principle of power, of action. That helps explain how God has faith.

-- a.) What's so bad about eliminating people's free will, if the outcome is that all shall be eternally saved?

It just doesn't work. By the nature of what we must learn and develop into. One doesn't just 'clean and jerk' 350 lbs. without a little work, first. Gotta build the capacity of the muscles. This is nothing compared to the work we require to become as our Father is.

-- b.) Why can't Lucifer be given the glory that he asked for? He came up with a more moral plan.

It has to be *grown into*. It CANNOT be 'given'. You can hand me the weightlifting world title, but if I didn't earn it, it is worthless.

5.) There was a great war in heaven, and Lucifer was cast out, along with 1/3 of all the other spirit children. None of them would be born into mortal bodies, and none of them would receive a chance at redemption.

I'm a little fuzzy on how accurate that one is in the long run, so I'm not very vocal on this point. Clearly though, if they don't go through mortality, then yeah, there's no possibility of further progression.

-- a.) Did Adam and Eve volunteer for this position as the first two human beings on earth?

I think so. Church position as I understand it is: absolutely.

-- b.) Did they eat the forbidden fruit on purpose, so that sin could enter into the world and thereby further along the Plan of Salvation?

More like, so they could enter into the world of sin, which was in a different state of existence from the Garden of Eden. And they furthered the Plan for them and their descendants, which I think is what you said...

Or did they not remember anything about their pre-mortal lives, just like the rest of us?

Right. Until the partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good 'n evil, then the veil became possible to pierce, based on a lot of not-so-well-known factors.

-- c.) If The Fall was a necessary part of God's plan, and he wanted it to happen, did Adam and Eve really sin by eating the fruit?

Many times the eating of the fruit is considered a 'transgression', not a 'sin'. I think this is because of the different circumstances leading up to the events, based on the state or environment they were in at the time.

-- a.) If God gave Jesus the power to live a sinless life, why couldn't/didn't he just give that ability to the rest of us as well?

The scriptures are clear that Christ was "God" BEFORE mortality. But we weren't. That's a really important distinction, and I think until God tells us individually how and why that is, we're just going to be guessing, and guessing badly.

-- b.) Why was it necessary for someone to die for all of humanity's sins anyway? Why can't God just forgive sins? Why must there be blood?

An EXCELLENT question. I'll pass on giving an answer, kinda like I did on the previous question. I don't think the answer can really benefit us until we get it from God. Ponder it. Ask God about it. That's really what makes the LDS Church what it is. We insist that God can and will answer. (eventually...)

-- a.) Why are we not allowed to recall our pre-mortal lives? What would be the harm in that? What's the point of making us all forget?

There's more than one reason for this. Yes, if we knew the 'daddy' was watching, then we'd not learn for ourselves why it is bad to play with matches. But also, if we knew exactly how to use matches and what they could do, we might employ them for the 'wrong' reasons, not being wise enough to handle the knowledge the way God does.

-- b.) Is it true that some people are born with less privileges than others because they behaved badly during the pre-existence?

You mean, like 'karma'? I don't know. I suppose it's possible. Elder McConkie, an apostle of the Church now deceased, did some guesswork based on this principle, and it turned out rather badly for both him and the Church. So I think most LDS no longer like speculating on this sort of idea. But it could be, IMO.

I'd really appreciate it if somebody would help me figure these things out. Thank you in advance.

Asking questions is important. I hope this thread proves very useful to you!

HiJolly

[tubaloth]

a.) Doesn't the fact that a "savior" was necessary suggest that the plan itself was unfair, and that the standards were set too high?

The plan of salvation is trying to Teach us how to become like our Heavenly Father. He is goal and what we want to be like. In Pre-mortal life we could only go so far. We came down here what we call a “Test.” God teaches we are here “will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;”

So now we need an environment where people are free to grow and fall as they choose. If God forced us to be good, that doesn’t prove anything. If God didn’t allow us to grow then we wouldn’t become more like him. The problem is, God is perfect! God knew we would break an eternal law, and thus would have to pay the price of breaking such a law. (Eternal Law is God’s Law). There is nothing we could do to ourselves to satisfy this demand of Justice. Thus the perfectness of the Plan of Salvation. We have a Savior. One that doesn’t break Eternal Law, but can pay the price of Justice. With Christ, and his Gospel, we can now grow as much as possible and even went we FALL we can overcome it, because of Christ.

a.) What's so bad about eliminating people's free will, if the outcome is that all shall be eternally saved?

You can’t grow. If somebody always makes choices for you, how are you growing? The test of this life is really to become like God is. Really God is trying to raise parents! We don’t progress and grow unless we learn both the good and the bad.

Along this same line, we need opposition, really we need a Law or Commandment to follow. Once the line is drawn then we have two choices. Good or Bad.

(2 Nephi 2:11)

For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

You can’t have happiness by forcing a choice.

a.) Did Adam and Eve volunteer for this position as the first two human beings on earth?

I look at it more like a calling. In the LDS church bases of of worthiness we are called to serve. Just as Christ had to pre-pare in the pre-mortal life. I believe Adam and Eve were called because of how the lived in Pre-mortal life.

-- b.) Why was it necessary for someone to die for all of humanity's sins anyway? Why can't God just forgive sins? Why must there be blood?

This goes back to the Law of God. If God has a law that can lift us up to Happiness, opposite always has to be true to fall to misery. It can’t be lopsided. If it was then it isn’t fair, and if God isn’t fair, then God isn’t God.

-- b.) Is it true that some people are born with less privileges than others because they behaved badly during the pre-existence?

Physically I don’t believe so. But Plan of Salvation wise, our Pre-mortal life had a bearing on this earth life. Just as this earth life has a bearing on our Glory in the next.

But that is all taking into consideration.

(Doctrine and Covenants 82:3)

For of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation.

Those that have more opportunities are going to be judged accordingly.

[Traveler]

There are some concepts missing from your understanding.

In order to have a fullness or completeness man must be free. In order to be free man must know the truth. In order to know the truth man must know good from evil.

In order to understand the plan of salvation we need to understand the relationship of the Son Jesus Christ to the Father. If we understand the Son we will understand the Father. Therefore, when we come to understand that Jesus once came to earth and was like man (As man is G-d once was). As Jesus was resurrected and returned to live with his Father so man can be resurrected and exalted to live with G-d (And as G-d is man may become).

The plan of salvation provides for all men that which they desire. All that desire to be with G-d will be granted that opportunity. Those that desire to fulfill their lust and passions will be granted that as well. Those that desire to have Lucifer as there G-d will be granted accordingly.

What you missed about the LDS understanding of the plan of salvation is the compassion of G-d that grants to all his children according to their greatest desire. What is not to like and respect in such a G-d and plan?

The Traveler

[Misshalfway]

I will put my comments in RED.

I feel that my understanding of the LDS "Plan of Salvation" concept might be flawed. Would anyone be willing to help me correct my views? My current comprehension of the subject is as follows:

1.) In the beginning, all human beings lived as God's "spirit children" in a type of pre-mortal existence, also called the first estate.

Yes. We were organized into spirits by Father. We were taught and prepared there.

There must have been some agency in this realm because clearly everyone was given the choice to follow Jesus or Lucifer.

2.) God saw that although his children were happy, they did not have the "fullness of happiness" he himself enjoyed. The Heavenly Father wanted his children to experience the same complete joy that he did, and he decided that in order for that to be possible, all of his children would have to live mortal lives. So he came up with the Plan of Salvation.

-- a). Why did God's children not have the "fullness of happiness" that he did? In other words, what was preventing them from being completely blissful?

-- b). Why was a mortal body necessary for them to eventually achieve happiness and perfection? Isn't God omnipotent? Couldn't he have just made happy and perfect beings?

-- c.) If a mortal body is needed in order to achieve a flawless, blissful, god-like status, does this mean that God himself was once mortal? Why and how?

3.) The Heavenly Father called a great gathering of all his spirit children, and presented to them the Plan of Salvation. Apparently, God was well aware that none of his children would be able to completely succeed in this plan, so he arranged for a "redeemer" or "savior" to sacrifice himself and pay for everyone's sins.

-- a.) Doesn't the fact that a "savior" was necessary suggest that the plan itself was unfair, and that the standards were set too high?

I don't believe God set the standards. I believe the standards were fixed as they are eternal law that even God himself must work with in. God just understood all this and He gave his children a chance to choose.

4.) Two spirit children volunteered to take on the responsibility of the savior: Jesus and Lucifer. Jesus offered to carry out God's plan exactly as he had presented it. Lucifer, on the other hand, wanted to make sure that everyone would be saved by taking away their free will. In return, he asked for glory. A vote was held, and Jesus won the title of "redeemer".

I am not sure Jesus won the title. It is my understanding that volunteered. He was presented to the group as the Savior. Lucifer wanted to by pass the law of sacrifice and not win just the Savior spot but to take Father's glory. I frankly don't think he had the gonads or inclination to suffer for others. He wanted the glory and forcing people into salvation was his plan. In short, he was a heavenly politician with a very self focused agenda.

-- a.) What's so bad about eliminating people's free will, if the outcome is that all shall be eternally saved?

Look at how governments that over control or lead their people in the ways of tyranny. Are the people happy? Why or why not? Liberty is essential to happiness. These are the principles of the US constitution. These are eternal/spiritual concepts as well. If we were not intelligent creations with wills of our own, what good would our creation have been in the first place. How lonely for God to have only created a giant group of cyborg drones.

You can't know the happiness if you don't experience the pain. Opposites in all things is essential. Adam and Eve helped teach us this.

-- b.) Why can't Lucifer be given the glory that he asked for? He came up with a more moral plan.

Are you sure his plan was moral? How would you feel if you were forced to believe a certain way....and forced into feeling certain feelings? This would be the ultimate form of slavery. (not to mention the fact that they plan was a completely self interesting one wisely crafted to flatter and convince as many as he could.)

5.) There was a great war in heaven, and Lucifer was cast out, along with 1/3 of all the other spirit children. None of them would be born into mortal bodies, and none of them would receive a chance at redemption.

6.) The next step in the plan was The Fall. God placed Adam and Eve in the garden, the serpent tempted them, they both ate the forbidden fruit, and then they were cast out into a world of suffering and death.

-- a.) Did Adam and Eve volunteer for this position as the first two human beings on earth?

I don't know if they volunteered or if they were appointed. There is some indication that Adam (known as michael back then) helped with the creation of the earth. In my mind, he was already one of the trusted servants. Perhaps it made sense he would be the first man. We know less about Eve pre-earth role.

-- b.) Did they eat the forbidden fruit on purpose, so that sin could enter into the world and thereby further along the Plan of Salvation? Or did they not remember anything about their pre-mortal lives, just like the rest of us?

They were in a state of innocents. I don't think they made the choice "on purpose." I do however think God knew the outcomes as he allowed Lucifer space to do what people of his kind do.

They did not have the veil over their memories like we do today. The still lived in the presence of the father. They had not yet lost their association and access to Father. After the fruit, they were cast out of God's presence to the fallen earth and fallen state.

-- c.) If The Fall was a necessary part of God's plan, and he wanted it to happen, did Adam and Eve really sin by eating the fruit?

Their choice is called a transgression. For someone to sin, they must have full knowledge of right and wrong. Again, they were innocent.

7.) The Atonement was also part of God's plan. He arranged for Jesus to live a sinless life, so that he could be our perfect sacrifice.

-- a.) If God gave Jesus the power to live a sinless life, why couldn't/didn't he just give that ability to the rest of us as well?

Jesus was divine. We are not. I am not sure I view it as something "arranged" by God. Jesus is the great I AM. State of being. How he got that way is rather fuzzy in my mind. Others can prolly explain it better.

-- b.) Why was it necessary for someone to die for all of humanity's sins anyway? Why can't God just forgive sins? Why must there be blood?

To satisfy the demands of justice. Justice is part of eternal law. Its an eye for an eye sort of situation. The creditor MUST be paid. But mercy allows for a proxy. So jesus suffered so we wouldn't have to IF we would repent. If we won't repent, justice will demand payment someday, and we will have to suffer.

8.) The 2/3rds of us who agreed to go along with God's plan have received mortal bodies and been born into the world (although some are still waiting and some have passed on). That's why all of us are here right now. But a veil of forgetfulness was placed over us, so we can't remember anything about our pre-mortal lives.

-- a.) Why are we not allowed to recall our pre-mortal lives? What would be the harm in that? What's the point of making us all forget?

This is part of the test. To see if we will obey even though we can't understand all things. Faith.

-- b.) Is it true that some people are born with less privileges than others because they behaved badly during the pre-existence?

I don't believe this is necessarily true. It could be. But it is my understanding that bad circumstances are not always just the results of sin. Sometime it is random luck of the draw...... the rain falls equally on the wicked and the righteous. Other times these inequities create the perfect test and are sometimes back handed blessings. I can't really know the mind of God with every circumstance, but I wouldn't look at these circumstances as some act of heavenly punishments.

I'd really appreciate it if somebody would help me figure these things out. Thank you in advance.

[HiJolly]

Ok, Seeker7, that's a pretty good sampling of responses! What do you think?

HiJolly

[desirexnoel]

I actually have a question now too. n_n

Umm... So couldn't we have been created with the knowledge of good an evil?

Thanx

[Justice]

The implication of gaining the knowledge of good and evil is that we choose it, or we experience it. One cannot truly know or understand something like evil until they experience it for themselves. It's like trying to understand what a strawberry tastes like. You just can't know until you taste it.

Had we chosen evil in Father's presence we would have been kicked out forever, whith no chance at redemption... just like Lucifer.

It's an easy concept, really. God needed us to be separated from Him in order to experience evil, so that we, hopefully, would choose to follow Him and not it. If we do choose to follow Him, He will redeem us and give us all He has, knowing He can trust us. He cannot allow any evil in His presence, or maybe better stated, evil cannot exist in His presence.

If you are going to give a child "all that you have" wouldn't you want to know what that child will do with the knowledge of evil and power of procreation before you give it to them? What if He didn't and one of His children chose to procreate and be evil? This prevents that.

[Misshalfway]

I actually have a question now too. n_n

Umm... So couldn't we have been created with the knowledge of good an evil?

Thanx

I am not sure we weren't created without some sense of good and evil. We had agency in the pre earth life. We had to have some frame of reference. I think though that being in the presence of God and "becoming" or acheiving our potential couldn't happen in the presence of God. But I think we were taught the gospel there and prepared for earth life in various ways.

[desirexnoel]

I am not sure we weren't created without some sense of good and evil. We had agency in the pre earth life. We had to have some frame of reference. I think though that being in the presence of God and "becoming" or acheiving our potential couldn't happen in the presence of God. But I think we were taught the gospel there and prepared for earth life in various ways.

Thank you. This seemed like the simplest response.

[Seeker7]

Sorry for the long delay! I had some important matters to take care of.

I really appreciate all your responses. They're very well-thought-out, not to mention extremely helpful to me. I learned a lot from reading them.

I think each of these deserves a thoughtful, individual response. I have each one typed out already, and will post my replies shortly.

Once again, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

[Seeker7]

JUSTICE:

Thanks for your response. I appreciate you sharing your understanding with me.

Yes, if we are a "creation" of God like a work of art, He could have made us however He wanted to. We are not.

This explanation was very useful to me. I am accustomed to thinking of God in the traditional mainstream Christian sense. The popular modern version of God did indeed create human beings like works of art, but I can see that the Mormon interpretation of God's nature is different. Thank you for clarifying that point.

I don't think He "arranged" for Jesus to live a sinless life. Jesus chose to.

This aspect continues to confound me. I understand that according to LDS doctrine, Jesus chose to live a sinless life of his own free will. What baffles me is the fact that he was able to. All Christians I have ever spoken with insist that Jesus was the only human being ever to live a perfect life, and that no one else will be able to accomplish this feat. In short, it’s impossible for us. Yet somehow, it was possible for him. How and why? Did he receive that ability from God? If so, then why did God not simply gift the rest of us with that ability as well? And if Jesus's flawlessness did NOT come from God, does that mean he possessed it innately? Did he perhaps come by it some other way? If that is the case, the question still remains: Why was his level of perfection not made available to everyone else?

Why are we not allowed to recall our pre-mortal lives? What would be the harm in that? What's the point of making us all forget?

What would be the point in taking a test with the answer sheet in front of you?

I don't think that's a fair comparison. Being able to remember my pre-mortal existence wouldn't automatically supply me with the answers to all of life's problems; therefore, it wouldn't be the equivalent of taking a test with the answer sheet in front of me. It would be akin to simply knowing I'm taking a test in the first place.

Thanks again for your helpful reply.

[Seeker7]

HIJOLLY:

Good to hear from you again! I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Your post was very useful to me, but there's one aspect I'm afraid I don't understand very well:

The scriptures are clear that Christ was "God" BEFORE mortality.

Doesn't that single admission render all these other statements false?

...we needed to develop the same way [God] had.

The mortal body thing is...necessary for our development. There IS "no other way".

Clearly, if Jesus Christ was divine prior to his mortality, "the mortal body thing" is NOT necessary for a soul's development, and there IS indeed another way.

Also:

Unfair, no; Standards too high, yes.

I'm confused. What does the word "unfair" mean to you? In my mind, God's Plan of Salvation seems an unfair concept because its requirements are disproportionate to the abilities of human beings. God wants us to accomplish that which is beyond our means; he would like us all to live sin-free lives. If we did so, according to this plan, we'd be guaranteed eternal celestial glory, and none of us would need Christ's atonement. (In fact, we'd all be eligible for "savior status" ourselves.) It is only because of our inability to avoid sin and resist temptation that Jesus Christ, our redeemer, was needed in the first place. God was aware that we'd need Jesus, so he made the atonement a part of his plan. Obviously, this means the standards are too high, as you said above. If we sin, a price must be paid; divine judgment is upon us. Wrongdoing merits some form of punishment, and the Bible says that this punishment is to be death. (Romans 6:23 -- "For the wages of sin is death...") Somehow it seems fair to you that human beings should be punished -- condemned to death or hell, even -- for failing to achieve the impossible? How can you admit that the standards by which human beings are judged are too high, and yet at the same time insist that the plan itself is fair? I'll borrow a quote from TUBALOTH to further illustrate my point:

God knew we would break an eternal law, and thus would have to pay the price of breaking such a law...There is nothing we could do to ourselves to satisfy this demand of Justice.

Unfair Aspect #1: God knew we would fail to live without sinning, because we are frankly incapable of doing so. We can't NOT sin. And yet, for some reason there must be punishment when we DO sin, which is something we can't avoid.

Unfair Aspect #2: God also knew that once we failed to meet these ridiculously high standards, there would be nothing we could do to redeem ourselves. (Because apparently, repenting with a sincere heart, asking for forgiveness, and trying hard to do better isn't enough. I thought God was "merciful?") Thus, the atonement of Jesus Christ was necessary.

BEING PUNISHED FOR FAILING TO ACHIEVE THE IMPOSSIBLE = UNFAIR

Right...?

[Seeker7]

TUBALOTH:

Thanks for your response. I’ll try to clarify my point as well as I can. You said:

If somebody always makes choices for you, how are you growing?

Perhaps a person who doesn’t make choices isn’t growing, but I think living in a state of perpetual sameness beats suffering in hell.

Maybe you’re right. Maybe if somebody had said, “Too bad, guys. You don’t get to live mortal lives and progress to godhood. You’re just gonna have to stay here and exist the way you are now – happy, but not fully happy like God,” then we as spirit children wouldn’t have grown to full maturity because our agency had been taken away. But that doesn’t sound unpleasant to me. Does it sound unpleasant to you – being happy, but not totally happy?

Now, imagine for a moment those who are sent to earth who choose to reject god and embrace atheism – those who do not live according to God’s laws, because they believe there is no God. What awaits them?

”…souls of the wicked are cast out into outer darkness, into the gloomy depression of sheol, into the hades of waiting wicked spirits, into hell. There they suffer the torments of the damned; there they welter in the vengeance of eternal fire; there is found weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth; there the fiery indignation of the wrath of God is poured out upon the wicked.”

-- Elder Bruce R. McConkie

Hell sounds like a terrible place to me. Why should a loving God want to risk any of his children ending up there?

You can’t have happiness by forcing a choice.

If I could force a choice upon someone that would save him or her from hell, I would do it. Perhaps the person wouldn’t achieve full happiness because of my intervention, but at least he or she wouldn’t receive torment. In my mind, it’s better to ensure that all will be content than it is to allow the opportunity for some to suffer and fall short of bliss – knowing full well that many will do so. Does that make sense?

[Seeker7]

TRAVELER:

Thank you for the helpful post.

In order to have a fullness or completeness man must be free. In order to be free man must know the truth. In order to know the truth man must know good from evil.

I notice you haven’t said anything here about becoming mortal. You’ve only said that in order to have a fullness of joy and understanding like God, mankind must know the difference between good and evil. I think I understand your clarification well enough, but it does raise one question in my mind: If knowledge of good and evil is all that’s required for becoming like our Heavenly Father, why didn’t he simply teach us about it? I don’t see how gaining a mortal body would be a prerequisite for acquiring that information. Is it that we must experience good and evil for ourselves in order to truly understand their importance? That doesn’t seem reasonable to me either. I know exactly what cancer, starvation, drowning, zero-gravity, and old age are, but I’ve never experienced any of those things. I don’t think people have to experience all things for themselves in order to understand the basic concepts, and that includes good and evil.

I think this ties in to what JUSTICE says:

The implication of gaining the knowledge of good and evil is that we choose it, or we experience it. One cannot truly know or understand something like evil until they experience it for themselves. It's like trying to understand what a strawberry tastes like. You just can't know until you taste it.

I’m not sure I understand how something like evil can be compared to the taste of a strawberry. Taste is a sense. I would agree that it can’t be fully, adequately described to someone who’s never experienced it – just like the color blue cannot be “explained” to a blind man. In fact, I wouldn’t know how to describe the color blue to anyone! What is blue? That’s the tricky thing about senses; they can’t be effectively described. They simply have to be experienced. Evil is not a sense, although it is something we experience with our senses. Evil can be described; it can be taught. For example, murder is one of the greatest evils. I’ve never experienced it, but I know exactly what it is. I would think that an all-powerful God would be able to teach his children about the concept of evil without actually making them suffer from it. And not only that, but also – being benevolent – I’d think he would want to!

The plan of salvation provides for all men that which they desire. All that desire to be with G-d will be granted that opportunity. Those that desire to fulfill their lust and passions will be granted that as well. Those that desire to have Lucifer as there G-d will be granted accordingly.

If this is about what men desire, then perhaps I should illuminate what I desire. I crave knowledge about the world around me, and the wisdom to make right choices. I want to be happy in life, and I strive to make others happy as well. I long to bring about peace, tolerance, and understanding in my fellow man. But what if, after serious reflection, I decide that your god probably doesn’t exist? What if I then choose not to live by his laws, even though I remain a relatively good person? According to this plan, TRAVELER, what will I get?

Thanks again for your insights.

[Seeker7]

MISSHALFWAY:

Hi! Thanks for the informative response. I appreciate you sharing your views.

Look at how governments that over control or lead their people in the ways of tyranny. Are the people happy? Why or why not? Liberty is essential to happiness. These are the principles of the US constitution. These are eternal/spiritual concepts as well.

That’s an interesting thought! Thanks for explaining it to me. I hope you don’t think I’m saying tyranny is the way to happiness, though, because I’m not! I don’t think controlling people is always a good way to make them happy. I was mainly thinking of “forced choices” in this context:

1.) In the pre-existence, God sees that his children have reached a point beyond which they cannot progress without intervention. He knows of a way to let them grow beyond their current state.

2.) But God, being perfect and omniscient, knows that if he presents this plan to his children, some of them will dislike it and rebel against him. These people will suffer immensely for their wrongdoings. Others will agree to go along with the plan, but will fail the test once it’s applied to them. These, too, will suffer. And even those who do eventually pass the test and progress to godhood will also suffer, but only during their mortal lives, and not as greatly as the rest. In other words, God recognizes that the plan will cause much suffering, and it will be “worth it” for some… but not all.

3.) What is the moral thing to do here? Obviously I’m not God, so I can’t pretend to know better than he would, but I can tell you what I think based on my own morals (which supposedly come from God): The moral thing to do would be to cause the least amount of suffering; in other words, don’t instate the plan! Let your children continue to exist as they are – happy, but not fully happy; god-like, but not fully gods. Where’s the harm in that?

You see, I think it would’ve been better to never even apply the test in the first place. I realize that might sound presumptuous of me, but when I think of all the misery this plan has made possible (if it’s true), I can’t help but think, “That doesn’t seem right!” Perhaps Lucifer did have selfish intentions when he offered to save everyone, but the outcome itself would’ve been beneficial to all – it would’ve been moral. I understand that you believe such a thing could never have happened. Perhaps not. But if it were possible, it would’ve been a better alternative. That’s all I can say.

Thanks again for all your help!

[Justice]

This aspect continues to confound me. I understand that according to LDS doctrine, Jesus chose to live a sinless life of his own free will. What baffles me is the fact that he was able to. All Christians I have ever spoken with insist that Jesus was the only human being ever to live a perfect life, and that no one else will be able to accomplish this feat. In short, it’s impossible for us. Yet somehow, it was possible for him. How and why? Did he receive that ability from God? If so, then why did God not simply gift the rest of us with that ability as well? And if Jesus's flawlessness did NOT come from God, does that mean he possessed it innately? Did he perhaps come by it some other way? If that is the case, the question still remains: Why was his level of perfection not made available to everyone else?

For lack of a better term, I believe He was just that good.

I don't think that's a fair comparison. Being able to remember my pre-mortal existence wouldn't automatically supply me with the answers to all of life's problems; therefore, it wouldn't be the equivalent of taking a test with the answer sheet in front of me. It would be akin to simply knowing I'm taking a test in the first place.

It would have the same answer as why doesn't God just show Himself to everyone and prove that He exists. The point is we are being tested to see what we will do without the knowledge He exists. If we carried our memories then we would have no need for faith.

[Justice]

You asked others a lot of questions I'd love to answer, but I'll let them respond first.

[skalenfehl]

I'm heading to bed, but hopefully I can add a worthwhile two cents. The Plan of Salvation essentially hinges on Christ's atonement. But in order to understand His atonement, we need to understand the Fall of Adam. In order to understand the Fall of Adam, we need to understand the (our) Pre-mortal Existence. These three elements are the keys to fully understanding the entire scope of God's plan of salvation. Each would take up volumes, but can be condensed into simple topics of study.

LDS.org - Premortal Existence particularly #2

LDS.org - The Fall of Adam

LDS.org - Atonment particularly #3

Lots of good information. Hope I've helped a little. :)

[bytebear]

Jesus Christ was divine and without sin, and he was God, but he was not complete. He still needed to receive a body, and be resurrected, then he became "perfect" which is to say complete, as the Father is.

[desirexnoel]

It would have the same answer as why doesn't God just show Himself to everyone and prove that He exists. The point is we are being tested to see what we will do without the knowledge He exists. If we carried our memories then we would have no need for faith.

Putting it like that sounds more like a lab test. It is kind of off putting in my opinion.

I kind of agree that I would like to know I am taking the test, as opposed to being tested as to whether I would follow an omnipotent being that can't be proven exists.

Isn't there a way to say it that doesn't make us sound like test subjects in a social experiment?

[pam]

But taking a test and being put to the test..isn't that kind of the same thing?

When you take a test in school you are being tested to see if you have learned the material.

To me it's all in attitude. If you are put out because you think everything you are doing is a "test" then I'm not sure there is an understanding of the Plan of Salvation at all.

YOU meaning generally..not anyone in particular.

[skippy740]

Okay, I'm going to share some "rambling thoughts" that may or may not have scriptural references, but I think you'll find some good ideas here. Most of this I learned in the MTC many moons ago.

Premise #1: God is our Father.

Premise #2: Children grow up to become like their parents.

God wanted His children to become more like Him. "For behold, this is my work and my glory: to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."

"God has a body of flesh and bone. The Son also. But the Holy Ghost has not a body but is a Spirit. Were it not so, he could not dwell within us."

Premise #1: God is perfect.

Premise #2: Anything God creates would also be perfect as it is a natural extension of Him.

Premise #3: In order to be tested, we must be placed in a state where we are "fallen".

2 Laws were given in the Garden of Eden:

"Multiply and replenish the earth."

"Thou shalt not partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, for in that day, thou shalt surely die."

It was a transgression of the law that was set up because Adam and Eve could not follow both commandments. They didn't know how to create children. (BTW, notice that when Eve partook, and Adam did also, that they died according to GOD'S time (900+ years) and not in the immediate "Earth day".) This is one "testament" on how we can know that it wasn't a SIN, but a transgression against the law.

Sin = against God's plan

Transgression = Violation of the law given.

The two are not completely related.

This was how the conditions were set up so we can have an environment to be tested.

Remember Premise #1: God is perfect.

Premise #2: In order to dwell with God, one must also be perfect. "God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance."

Premise #3: God cannot violate His own law by being the person to be offered as a sacrifice. (Think of the judge also being the bail bondsman. They have conflicting interests and are different parties to the plan.)

Premise #4: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

It is through Christ and his Infinite Atonement and the covenants with make that set the terms.

Us alone with our finite sins (but many) at the judgement bar = receive justice (full force of the law)

Us (finite sins) + Christ's Infinite Atonement = saving grace

Just the thoughts that had come into my mind. I hope they add meaning to the discussion and thread. (If you have references, they are appreciated. These are of my own opinions and through my own fragmented memory.)

Edited August 24, 2009 by skippy740