Ultimate forgiveness?

[MaMeeshkaMow]

Just had a question to see if there's any info/scriptures on this: Would/Could Lucifer ever be forgiven? On one hand, he's done enough evil to surpass the 7x7 forgiveness limit plan(haha) but on the other hand, you think that without temptation/evil, we would never know good...what if he had hope...thoughts on that...I know the concept of perdition and outer darkness but does the outer darkness sphere have any door of hope to come in the light....He had potential, could he redeem himself kinda like Darth Vadar...

I know also the concept of no forgiveness for someone who has received an absolute witness by the Holy Ghost but rejects it....however in his case, just by the fact he never received a body, could that help his cause. Not that I have sympathy for the devil, but I'm just curious about this subject....

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Dogmatically, Satan is screwed.

However, if you give any credit at all to the Gnostic Gospels - specifically the Gospel of Judas, there's room for the interpretation that Judas didn't betray Christ but that Christ asked Judas to turn him over to the magistrate in order to fulfill the plan Christ had set in motion for his death and resurrection. Along the same vein, it's possible that Lucifer was "called" to play the adversary in order to provide us with the necessary temptation. However, this idea would call into question all of the accepted scripture and revelation we have regarding the war in the premortal existence and the final battle with Satan at the end of the millenium.

However, our accepted belief about Lucifer's fall does beg the question: What if he had never fallen in the first place? Suppose he'd been a good guy from the start, what would Heavenly Father have done to provide us with temptation? I'm sure he'd have come up with something, but I'm not sure we could comprehend what that might have been (I'll entertain suggestions!).

My personal feeling on the matter - whether Lucifer goes there or not - is that Outer Darkness is the one place where you are completely and totally screwed. No light, no truth, no love, no joy, no happiness, and NO PROGRESSION. EVER. While the accepted dogma (and scripturally supported) is that there is no progression in any of the kingdoms except the highest glory in the Celestial Kingdom, there is also scriptural evidence that there is or can be progression in these kingdoms - albeit incredibly slowly. If true, this would make Outer Darkness a truly unfortunate fate. Providing for any sort of progression out of Outer Darkness defeats the purpose of it as the ultimate punishment.

And just to avoid any debate on the matter - this is all pure speculation and theory and absolutely none of it is doctrinal. Whether or not Satan goes to outer darkness or whether or not he could ever be forgiven are questions that do not affect our own personal salvation and therefore they may not have a "doctrinal" answer.

[NeuroTypical]

My own totally undoctrinal, off the cuff answer: Don't tell Dad how to handle His own kids. Not only is it presumptive, but it's also none of our business.

(This advice covers people all bent out of shape when parents give the bad sibling a bigger chunk of the inheritance, too.)

LM

[Hemidakota]

Just had a question to see if there's any info/scriptures on this: Would/Could Lucifer ever be forgiven? On one hand, he's done enough evil to surpass the 7x7 forgiveness limit plan(haha) but on the other hand, you think that without temptation/evil, we would never know good...what if he had hope...thoughts on that...I know the concept of perdition and outer darkness but does the outer darkness sphere have any door of hope to come in the light....He had potential, could he redeem himself kinda like Darth Vadar...

I know also the concept of no forgiveness for someone who has received an absolute witness by the Holy Ghost but rejects it....however in his case, just by the fact he never received a body, could that help his cause. Not that I have sympathy for the devil, but I'm just curious about this subject....

No. He's already beyond the point called 'NO RETURN.' His final fate and those who are considered Perdition from either the Spirit world to mortality, is the fate of 'Outer Darkness'. The best way to describe this fate is what Alma the Younger brief experience for those three days when traveling with King Mosiah sons. What happens after this term of hell is not revealed to the world.

May want to add this for your own spiritual edification, what you stated, it may be one of two keys to the downfall of the last generation of those millennium children.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Hemidakota

[deseretgov]

Yes that will be in an interesting time when Satan is loosed at the end of the millenium.

[lost87]

I can't even imagine how that will be.

[Maureen]

I don't think the atonement works for fallen angels. Christ became incarnate (became human) to save mankind. I think the atonement only applies to humans.

[Vort]

However, our accepted belief about Lucifer's fall does beg the question: What if he had never fallen in the first place?

No, actually, it does not beg that question. It may raise that question, but the phrase beg the question has a specific meaning having to do with circular logic: for example, "Why is Lucifer forever lost? Because he is Perdition, and 'Perdition' means 'Lost'" begs the question.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

I don't think the atonement works for fallen angels. Christ became incarnate (became human) to save mankind. I think the atonement only applies to humans.

You're saying that angels are a different species than man? Even though modern prophets have said that we are the same species as God...

Actually we know that angels are those who have already lived on Earth (ie the ANGEL Moroni) - which tells me that we're the same species. It also tells me that technically, Lucifer is not (and never was) qualified as an angel. Any place where you would see him referred to as thus is either a symbolic alliteration or just plain incorrect.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

No, actually, it does not beg that question. It may raise that question, but the phrase beg the question has a specific meaning having to do with circular logic: for example, "Why is Lucifer forever lost? Because he is Perdition, and 'Perdition' means 'Lost'" begs the question.

Begging the question is a logical fallacy of assuming the truth of the point raised in the question - circular reasoning, as you say. However, "to beg the question" also has an colloquial usage for "raising a question as the direct result of a statement". This particular definition doesn't show up on dictionary.com - but I've heard it used often enough to consider it ubiquitous. This definition is available on wiktionary.org: beg the question - Wiktionary

Are you going to accuse me of equivocation now?

:edit:

I'm going to throw in there that the "proper" linguistic usage of "beg the question" as you described it is idiomatic - its meaning is not discernable from its constituent parts. The common "misused" definition which I used is the usage that actually makes sense when you look at the phrase semantically.

[rameumptom]

Lucifer has chosen his path. He has chosen to rebel against God with full and total knowledge he was rebelling. He sought to overthrow God, to replace God, on Satan's own terms. When he failed, he began a war in heaven.

Lucifer can never be redeemed, because he can never recover from what he has become. He will always refuse to accept the atonement of Christ, which is what is necessary for forgiveness.

[MaMeeshkaMow]

Thanks for the replies and insight. I wanted to ask the next part of the question, which I hope doesn't offend people. When that time is right for you to be at the highest level of divinity (when you become like Heavenly Father which would take a long time to get there!!!!!) , could you forgive the Devil? You know how they say you should forgive your enemies? What if this is the last step? After all, the devil has wronged you, tempted you, was your enemy...could you do it?

This makes me think of "who" we actually should forgive. If the devil or his demons tempt man that directly negatively influences us, it is the Christian thing to forgive that man (if it is reasonable to do so). This is because that man used his free agency to act upon temptation. But, should we forgive the source as well?

Which brings me to another question. Sorry for this rambling. We talk about the free agency of man. Does Lucifer have free agency to tempt man? If he does, that means he has a pretty good gift to use. It also is very ironic because that was something he was against the whole time (free agency). Could God have given that to him to show him what it would be like (of course without a body) to use it?

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Oooh I LOVE deep conversations

Thanks for the replies and insight. I wanted to ask the next part of the question, which I hope doesn't offend people. When that time is right for you to be at the highest level of divinity (when you become like Heavenly Father which would take a long time to get there!!!!!) , could you forgive the Devil? You know how they say you should forgive your enemies? What if this is the last step? After all, the devil has wronged you, tempted you, was your enemy...could you do it?

This makes me think of "who" we actually should forgive. If the devil or his demons tempt man that directly negatively influences us, it is the Christian thing to forgive that man (if it is reasonable to do so). This is because that man used his free agency to act upon temptation. But, should we forgive the source as well?

VERY good point. We are also commanded to forgive ALL men but "I the Lord will forgive whom I will forgive." It could be that we are required to forgive the devil, even if Heavenly Father retains the option not to. All in all, so long as you maintain your focus on righteousness and don't let your "forgiveness" move you anywhere towards sympathy, I don't think such an exercise in forgiveness could be harmful. But I could also be wrong - who knows?

But then - forgiveness does require that an offense be made. What if we are not offended by Satan's temptations? Is there any need for forgiveness?

And finally - we can forgive others (possibly including Satan) regardless of whether or not they're repentant. Heavenly Father reserves the right to forgive only those who truly repent. Whether or not Satan can repent... good question. I thought to myself a while back about what if any of that 1/3 that followed him decided to repent? Are they completely lost or can they regain their first estate?

Which brings me to another question. Sorry for this rambling. We talk about the free agency of man. Does Lucifer have free agency to tempt man? If he does, that means he has a pretty good gift to use. It also is very ironic because that was something he was against the whole time (free agency). Could God have given that to him to show him what it would be like (of course without a body) to use it?

free agent:

a person who is self-determining and is not responsible for his or her actions to any authority.

If Satan has no agency, or he lacks the ability to choose for himself, then who chooses for him? This "begs the question" ( Vort ) if Satan isn't in control of himself, who is controlling him? Does this boil down to a sort of "mind control" and then wouldn't the "controller" (ie God) be culpable for Satan's actions? That one almost borders on heresy.... Since God can not sin (or be responsible for sin) we might consider this a counter-proof and therefore conclude that Satan does have agency - that is he is self-determining and no one else is responsible for his actions.

Then again, my understanding of what agency is and how it works may be totally bollocks. In our culture "agency" and especially "free agency" refers to the state of being a "free agent" that is, not bound by contract or duty and free to offer services or loyalty to the object of his choice (ie in sports). Satan already made his choice and thereby "signed a contract" obligating him to follow through on the course he set. Basically, he would have choice, but all of his choices are bound by that first choice he made.

[bytebear]

I think God is absolutely capable of forgiving anyone, including Satan. However, there are some beings who are incapable (or rather unwillingness) of repenting. It's not God blocking the path, it's Satan.

[Maureen]

You're saying that angels are a different species than man? Even though modern prophets have said that we are the same species as God...

Yes, I believe that angels, man and God are different species. The devil may not actually be an angel but he is also not human, so I still believe that the atonement does not apply to him.

[Vort]

You're saying that angels are a different species than man? Even though modern prophets have said that we are the same species as God...

Fwiw, Maureen is not LDS.

[Justice]

He will be forgiven after he has paid the utmost farthing.

The way I see it is he is where he chose to be, or wants to be. Since he did not come to earth to gain a body by choice, even if he is forgiven, his progression is halted. You cannot gain Celestial Glory without a physical body.

[Vort]

He will be forgiven after he has paid the utmost farthing.

This idea is not LDS doctrine and is nowhere substantiated in scripture or, as far as I have ever heard, prophetic teachings of any sort.

On a practical level, I see no benefit accruing to us by believing that the erstwhile Lucifer, now the fallen Satan, will ever be forgiven. Such a doctrine gives us no lessons to help us overcome the natural man, or to live closer to the Spirit, or otherwise encourage us on our path to the Father. It is at best a meaningless doctrine, and at worst a doctrine which subtlely discourages us from aligning our lives with God, instead believing (in the words of Nehor the antiChrist) that "the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men" (Alma 1:4).

[Justice]

I didn't say he will gain any glory whatsoever. In fact, I think I implied he would not.

I do believe it is capable of Jesus Christ to forgive him. I believe that He will, if He hasn't already. I never meant to imply any more than that. To me, Christ's forgiveness is ultimate forgiveness. A person can be forgiven and still damned.

[Vort]

I didn't say he will gain any glory whatsoever. In fact, I think I implied he would not.

I do believe it is capable of Jesus Christ to forgive him. I believe that He will, if He hasn't already. I never meant to imply any more than that. To me, Christ's forgiveness is ultimate forgiveness. A person can be forgiven and still damned.

If this is so, then "divine forgiveness" is meaningless.

[Justice]

If this is so, then "divine forgiveness" is meaningless.

No, because Satan did not keep His first estate. He has had his agency removed. There are doors closed to him. There are some things he cannot do, even with forgiveness.

We have sinned also. However, we are in a fallen condition where redemption is possible, because we kept our first estate. Forgiveness of sin in mortality is prerequisite to gaining eternal life. But, so also is being born again and receiving a remission of sins.

Being forgiven of sin is meaningless if you do not receive a remission of sin. I say meaningless if your goal is to gain eternal life. If your goal is the Telestial Kingdom then it's not meaningless.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Fwiw, Maureen is not LDS.

Good to know. I don't think it changes anything, but at least I'm no longer operating under a false assumption.

Yes, I believe that angels, man and God are different species. The devil may not actually be an angel but he is also not human, so I still believe that the atonement does not apply to him.

So what about aliens? They A: would have bodies and B: would be God's creation. Are they human? Does the atonement apply to them? Hypothetically speaking, if you don't believe in aliens.

He will be forgiven after he has paid the utmost farthing.

This idea is not LDS doctrine and is nowhere substantiated in scripture or, as far as I have ever heard, prophetic teachings of any sort.

I do believe I've read scriptures or the like that support Justice's statement, but I'm not sure where to look for a reference at just this moment. If I come across something or remember anything I'll be sure to post it.

On a practical level, I see no benefit accruing to us by believing that the erstwhile Lucifer, now the fallen Satan, will ever be forgiven. Such a doctrine gives us no lessons to help us overcome the natural man, or to live closer to the Spirit, or otherwise encourage us on our path to the Father. It is at best a meaningless doctrine, and at worst a doctrine which subtlely discourages us from aligning our lives with God, instead believing (in the words of Nehor the antiChrist) that "the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men" (Alma 1:4).

I think the practical benefit would be a greater understanding of the commandment to "forgive all men" and a greater capacity for forgiveness in general. This, of course, requires that we would understand such "doctrine" properly and not misinterpret or misobey (I think I just invented a word) it.

Let me give an example in reverse. When my mom died, I didn't blame the guy who hit her, I blamed God for not intervening. I believed (and still do believe) that letting someone die when you have the power and ability to prevent it is just the same as if you had killed them yourself. As an example: if I were to hold a gun to your friend's head and all you had to do was say "please don't" and I would put the gun down - if you chose not to say it, knowing I would kill your friend, by my logic you would be just as guilty as me of your friend's death. It was by this logic that I felt God was ultimately culpable for my mom's death. I still do believe that, and it's been a long road learning how to understand, accept, and forgive God's actions in that situation. In my case, learning to forgive God was more difficult and more important than forgiving the druggie behind the wheel who actually did the deed. By the same token, forgiving Satan for being the instigator behind the temptations and hardships that befall us - even when they are brought on us by other people - may be more important in the long term. Maybe. It's just a theory.

If this is so, then "divine forgiveness" is meaningless.

I can forgive someone even if they don't repent. Therefore, a person can be forgiven (by me) and still be damned. However, Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have the advantage of being allowed to choose who to forgive, and they withold their forgiveness from those who do not repent. So "Divine forgiveness" only comes to those who are worthy of it, and they are they who are not damned.

The real question boils down to "Can Satan repent?" If he still has his agency (by the first definition, anyway) then yes, I would say he can. If we use the second definition of free agency, then Satan is basically bound "by contract" to his fate and ultimately only God knows what the full terms of that contract are.

[Justice]

Lucifer has chosen his path. He has chosen to rebel against God with full and total knowledge he was rebelling. He sought to overthrow God, to replace God, on Satan's own terms. When he failed, he began a war in heaven.

Lucifer can never be redeemed, because he can never recover from what he has become. He will always refuse to accept the atonement of Christ, which is what is necessary for forgiveness.

It is necessary if you meet the conditions required by the atonement. The atonement can wash away sins committed while in mortal probation, not sin committed in God's presence. So, I agree with what you said, with that small clarification.

[Vort]

No, because Satan did not keep His first estate. He has had his agency removed.

This is strange new doctrine indeed! You believe that Satan is unable to act for himself?

There are doors closed to him. There are some things he cannot do, even with forgiveness.

And there are any number of things you and I are unable to do, even with forgiveness. That fact means nothing.

We have sinned also. However, we are in a fallen condition where redemption is possible, because we kept our first estate. Forgiveness of sin in mortality is prerequisite to gaining eternal life. But, so also is being born again and receiving a remission of sins.

Being forgiven of sin is meaningless if you do not receive a remission of sin.

In what way do you suppose that having God forgive your sins is different from having God remit your sins?

Can you point to any scriptural backing for this amazing new doctrine of the separation of forgiveness and remission that you propose?

[MaMeeshkaMow]

Vort, I respect your opinion on this matter. However, I have to disagree on one thing. It is true that if Lucifer can/cannot be forgiven, it doesn't affect us. However, the core of the matter is forgiving people and being forgiven, which I think is a very fundamental part of the Gospel, and therefore applies to our daily lives. Substitute Lucifer for someone that has wronged you in the worst possible way...can you forgive....I have a hard time with it (even forgiving myself) which makes me want to be better at it. Just thinking that's all.